Wayne Rooney | 2012-14 Performances

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alastair said:
I wouldn't, but that isn't how football transfers work.

Carroll isn't four and a half times the player Hernandez is, but look at that deal.
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Previous transfers do provide a context. It's fallacy to claim they don't. Hernandez was a relatively little-known prospect from Mexico. Rooney is a proven Premier League performer with huge Champions League experience, he still has two years left on his contract and he's one of the best players at one of the world's biggest clubs. Oh, and he's only 27 years old.

In today's market, all that should mean he's worth far more than 25M. There's simply no justification for paying more for Gonzalo Higuain than for Wayne Rooney. None at all. We're busy ******* over Thiago's "dirt cheap" release clause, that sets his fee at around 15M - that is considered VERY CHEAP for a 22-year-old player who's done feck all in the game compared to Rooney.

Of course, clubs may feel they do not wish to pay more than 25M for Rooney. In that case the club should reject all offers though.
 
Siorac said:
Previous transfers do provide a context. It's fallacy to claim they don't. Hernandez was a relatively little-known prospect from Mexico. Rooney is a proven Premier League performer with huge Champions League experience, he still has two years left on his contract and he's one of the best players at one of the world's biggest clubs. Oh, and he's only 27 years old.

In today's market, all that should mean he's worth far more than 25M. There's simply no justification for paying more for Gonzalo Higuain than for Wayne Rooney. None at all. We're busy ******* over Thiago's "dirt cheap" release clause, that sets his fee at around 15M - that is considered VERY CHEAP for a 22-year-old player who's done feck all in the game compared to Rooney.

Of course, clubs may feel they do not wish to pay more than 25M for Rooney. In that case the club should reject all offers though.
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We'll see, won't we.

United don't exactly have a great reputation for extracting the best fees out of clubs for players(Ronaldo, even at £80m was probably underpriced). If United are selling a player, it's usually because they don't want them anymore, and that's going to cause a problem for you.

As a player, he's probably worth more than £25m, but that doesn't mean that'll be his transfer fee.
 
We sold RVN for about 20m less than what Milan sold Shevchenko for. We do seem to get mugged by other teams so it wouldn't surprise me if we sold him for a paltry 25m
 
akash02 said:
We sold RVN for about 20m less than what Milan sold Shevchenko for. We do seem to get mugged by other teams so it wouldn't surprise me if we sold him for a paltry 25m
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Yeah, we didnt get the most out of quite a few transfers. Both Becks and RVN come to mind immediately.

I do feel that he's going to end up staying here though. Works best for both parties involved.
 
Yes, that's a good point - we really aren't the best at getting good fees for our players. Ronaldo is an exception though, 80m was 24m more than the previous world record...
 
Tbf though, it seems we just wanted rid of Becks & RVN.
 
SteveJ said:
Tbf though, it seems we just wanted rid of Becks & RVN.
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We did but that doesnt justify selling them for peanuts. Remember reading a book called "White Angels"( i think) once just to read the part about the becks transfer. The journo is supposed to be closely associated with the madrid board at the time and they were pissing themselves at the price we said we wanted.

It'd be crazy to sell someone like Rooney for 25mil in today's market. Half decent English players go for that much. He's top drawer.
 
alastair said:
Ronaldo may have been a world record, but I think it should have been a bigger one. £100m.
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It's easy to say that in hindsight, now he has a 1 goal/game ratio at Real Madrid and he's tearing everything apart. He was utterly brilliant at United but not a £100m player. In his last season here he scored "only" 26 goals.
 
I wonder if the people who think £20m for Rooney is a good fee, also think £15-20m for Baines is good!
 
alastair said:
The problem here is that Rooney's injuries may well be down to a lack of dedication to keeping himself fit. Time and time again he comes back to pre-season training unfit and overweight, and he spends the first couple of months getting himself into decent shape again.

Clearly, he's still a quality player, as shown by the statistics you posted. Should he join Arsenal, for example, I can't imagine that he wouldn't score goals with the service he's set to be given.

Of course there are a lot of people who deliberately take his lack of goal-scoring last year out of context, but I do think there are fair arguments to why he didn't play as many games as one might have expected. He didn't play against Real Madrid at home, for example. Why was this? You can say it was tactics all you want, but the reality is that Wayne Rooney has been undroppable for the vast majority of his time at Old Trafford. This changed in the last days of Ferguson, and you can't get around that fact.

You don't drop players who have an immense value to the team. Rooney's powers are on the wane.(see what I did there?). That doesn't mean he's not a great player to have in your team, but he isn't as good as he once was, meaning his value diminishes. Comparing him to Torres here is facetious really - that was clearly a desperate move from Chelsea and the price tag represented that. If anyone were to buy Rooney, they'd be doing it calmly and not in a panicked way, reducing the fee considerably. I'd be amazed to see a fee over £25m.
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Talk about blowing his lack of dedication out of proportions. Yes, it's been clear for years that he doesn't have Ronaldo's attitude to self-improvement or Giggs' attitude to maintaining himself at peak fitness but to suggest he takes a couple of months to get into shape is just absurd. If that was the case then his 9 goals in 5 games at the start of 11/12 including that hat-trick against your lot was the work of a man with unbelievable talent. Likewise with his 5 goals in his first 6 games two seasons previous. Or perhaps his conditioning isn't quite as bad as you're suggesting.

Yes, last season he was no longer undroppable and something changed in his relationship with Sir Alex. Yes, he never reached his peak even for his usual short-lasting bursts of form. That's just one season though. You believe his powers are on the wane based on one season (as shown by his terrific start to the previous season and his all-round goal return). Surely you can see that there's a small chance you might just be jumping the gun a bit, and it was simply just Rooney going through a rough patch on-and-off the pitch - which he has experienced at various points of his career - rather than any evidence of a long-term decline?

I don't care about the transfer fee. I'll leave that to that transfer experts. I just know your comments on Rooney are just a little bit silly and I'll bet he has another season where he scores 25+ league goals wherever he plays.
 
I can't see Rooney going for much more than £25m either. There are too many factors putting downward pressure on his sale value. There are a lot of strikers on the market right now, meaning the clubs that want to buy aren't desparate - or them buying him is contingent on them selling their current striker (in the case of Chelsea or PSG); the player has already asked to leave, and the club probably want to get rid as well. Also, the fact that he's go such high wage demands will probably make any buying club less willing to put a hefty sum up on the initial transfer.

Nothing at all to do with his quality, but I don't expect him to go for much more than £20-25m.
 
I hope we don't give him a pay rise to convince him to stay. Then I will be seriously angry. Either stay Wayne and shut up or get lost.
 
i think alastair and Brwned both make good points, i don't feel there is a definitive right and wrong here. An objective poster could make a reasonable case for either side of the argument.

The way i see it is Rooney seems to have lost his way in the past couple of seasons. He has been ok, so i am not saying he is shit or anything before anyone starts. He just doesn't seem to be enjoying his time at Utd anymore. He has now put in 2 requests to leave in the past 3 years, and has not consistently performed anywhere near his best in between.

Is that indicative of a contented and happy player? For me no, which therefore suggests there is some type of underlying issue. I think Rooney should leave as he has made a bed for himself in which he will now have to lay. As a result he has made staying at Utd that much harder, as his relationship with many Utd fans can only be further damaged by his latest request to leave.

Maybe a fresh start somewhere else would be best for both parties. He has given ten years at OT, and has been fantastic for most of that time, but it seems to have all gone a bit sour for him recently. If Moyes wants him, and Rooney really does want to stay, i am not against him staying at all, i just feel it will now be more difficult than it should have been. Maybe the new manager will give him a fresh outlook upon his future at Utd, and he can recapture his best form under new circumstances. I hope so, but if he does leave i hope fans remember him more for his general contribution over a decade, rather than have that overshadowed by the unsavory nature of his departure. The latter could just not reasonably be viewed as an adequate or true representation of Rooney's huge contribution to our success since his arrival.
 
Let's change the thread title to Dwayne Booney, just for a laugh because it's a well funny thing to do
 
Once United sells it's not about money, we're not selling club looking for bigger fee, just to offload the player.

Only in Cristiano case we've commanted bigger fee since he was best player in the world at that time, Sir Alex didn't really want to sell but had agreement with Cristiano and club got what it wanted.

As for Rooney, would like him to stay only if his head is clear and he's fully commited. If not, as it seems like, sell him, we'll get some money and spend on other team departmants which need to be address.

Rooney, healty and ready, is great player, one of the best in the world and menace on the field. But Rooney disinterested and without any focus, (injury and all that aside, he wasn't brillitan before that either) will still produce, but just not enough of the high standars United requires.
 
Zen86 said:
Jesus christ.
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apotheosis said:
I don't get that Ash. What are we talking about here? Goal returns and assists or levels of performance? If its goals and assists then you may have a case, but the gulf between level of performance was far more striking. Mata and Bale made the difference in games, and made their teams better. Did Rooney do that for us? Did his performances inspire our team to achieve more than would otherwise have been possible?

Not for me and i am not slagging rooney here, only highlighting the difference between overall contributions, as opposed to comparing goal tallies. Mata and Bale had an almost RVP type of effect on their respective teams, they were inspirational and their teams effectiveness would have been significantly lessened by their absence. If that was the case with rooney, why do so many - including most notably SAF - deem him to have been so disappointing despite his goal return?
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Cheesy said:
He may have just fallen short of what they produced on paper, but there's no doubt that the two of them had much better seasons than Rooney. Considering neither of the two are strikers, they're not really supposed to be scoring more than Rooney anyway. Anything other than scoring more than them would be disappointing for Rooney although he's kind of got an excuse because of his injuries. There's no doubt that Bale and Mata had far better seasons than him though. They were their sides best players, almost carrying them at times to their respective positions, and were much more consistent as well.

I do agree that a fee of £20m is too little for Rooney though when you consider what Torres went for. He could have a very good season next year, for example, as he was hardly awful this season. With Torres there's the argument that Liverpool weren't going to let him leave for a small price because of his influence and him being their most important player comfortably unlike Rooney who is our second best forward, but even then it's not enough to warrant £30m more than prices Rooney is being touted for. He should be going for around £30m minimum for me. Ideally I'd rather sell him if he wants to leave as opposed to having an unhappy player staying, but that doesn't mean we should take a bargain price. Only in the last year of his contract should we take £20m at this age.
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May as well reply to all of you at the same time. I wasn't commenting on performance I was commenting on output and in that he was only just off both off them and that's on what we would all say is Rooney playing below his best. I don't think he had a bad season or even a poor one, he had some bad games but he also had some good games and in general he provided something which is reflected in the fact that in 27 games, 22 being starts he gave 22 goals and assists. You don't just fluke that, stats aren't everything but they do help give context, he might not have been his best but he was definitely contributing. When RVP had his barren spell Rooney picked up the mantle. Two or RVPs best goals this season came from great passes from Rooney. That's the thing, this season he became marginalized, moved around in more positions than we've seen in a few years, playing centre mid some games, left, head of diamond although in reality he effectively playing in a 2 man midfield and yet he still got in the top ten for overall offensive contribution in the league for the season, and I'd wager his games to goal/assist record was up their as one of the best.

Can he do better, no doubt. I've commented already in this thread that he can and should be doing more but at the same time he also seems to get held to a very high and harsh standard. RVP, Bale, Mata etc were more impressive than Rooney, they were the driving forces for their team and that is something that Rooney should address, although tbf Rooney has been either the main driving force or at least the second main driving force in out team for the best part of 9 seasons or so. I think he's allowed a blip, and as I said in this below par season, where he wasn't always able to play in his favored position he still gave back a return that was very close to others that played more than him and were allowed to play in their best role and certainly in the case of Bale with a team built around them.

As I said Rooney is someone who can get you 20+ goals and assists from a deeper role and 30+ from the lead striker role in the league. That is not a £20m striker, that's £30m minimum. I don't really want to defend Rooney, particularly if he has submitted a transfer request but he's getting some harsh criticism for his performances. He deserves to be criticized for not having had his best season, for some of the flaws in his game that can be attributed to his own faults and if he wants to leave because he can't handle the competition for places. But it should also be acknowledged that he is a top player, who has been a huge presence for us in one of our most successful periods for nearly a decade and that even when not at his best he can still produce a good return and that should be reflected in his worth to our team. He's definitely worth more than £20m to us for 2 years, arguable for 1 season and one average season in terms of performance rather than production doesn't change that.
 
Yes well i agree with much of that Ash, but i have to differ on the one season blip suggestion. Last season was simply the first season he has been left out for playing poorly. The truth as i see it, is that despite his goals, he hasn't regularly performed anywhere near his best since before the 2010 WC.

Most telling for me was that despite a good goal return 2 seasons ago, SAF still felt the need to buy RVP and make him his main man. That surely is indication that SAF felt he needed more up front than Rooney was regularly providing. Many could not understand why we were even going for RVP last summer, but a season on and the reason is now glaringly obvious. He inspired the team to have more belief than it had before. The season before we went behind 11 times and failed to win any from that position. In contrast how many times did we come back last year from losing positions to win?

That is surely what SAF believed he would get from RVP that he didn't feel he was getting from Rooney. Even the acquisition of Kagawa provides another option to rooney behind the striker. All this suggests that despite his goals, SAF did not feel we were getting enough from Rooney in terms of performance and inspiration. So it can't be just about goals surely? If we played Hernandez regularly, would we not expect a 20+ goal return from him over the season. Of course we would, but the reason he doesn't start more is that he doesn't offer enough in other areas compared to the likes of Rooney and RVP. But Hernandez is brilliant at what he does and he regularly produces what we would expect from him. However Rooney is capable of far more generally, and so it is not unreasonable to expect more than goals from him.

He finds himself in his current situation not due to any one season 'blip' in my view, that would surely indicate SAF took dramatic steps to give himself serious alternatives to Rooney last summer before Rooney had even had his blip! No, far more likely that he took those steps because he felt were lacking something due to Rooney's regularly below par displays over the past couple of seasons, as opposed to just buying Kagawa and RVP coincidentally as alternatives to Rooney's position, for no particular reason.
 
Ekeke said:
If he stays he'll be right to think he's bigger than the club
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Depends on why he stays. If he stays only because the financial package for others to sign him is too excessive, and not because he is wanted by the club to again be one of the main men, then i doubt that would particularly inflate his own opinion of his standing.

Much depends on Moyes. If he gives him the assurances he wants, which i doubt, then i would agree with you. But hopefully Moyes will just tell him he is still wanted but not guaranteed a place. The ball is in his court then, and we will find out if he is willing to earn a place like everybody else or whether he simply expects one based on his name, not his performances.
 
Brwned said:
Just look at the Torres transfer. He was in worse form, at the same age and he clearly wanted to go yet he left for £50m. Ronaldo obviously wanted to leave us yet he went for a world record fee. This whole "you've got an unhappy player who will not be useful to you" suggestion comes up all the time but it's just pie in the sky stuff. Ronaldo was obviously a little distracted in 08/09 and wasn't on top of his game but he still had a big hand in us winning the title and we'd have had very little chance of reaching the CL final without him. And even though he was "unhappy" he still went for a huge sum. Likewise Berbatov was so adamant he wanted to leave that he refused to play/train (?) at the beginning of the league season yet we still paid over £30m. So much for no bargaining power.

The idea that he's no longer the player he once was based on one below-par season is bizarre. In the previous season he scored 27 league goals - a record Henry bettered just once and a record only 6 players have surpassed in Premier League history. In the season before that he was the key player in our run to the Champions League final and a crucial part of our record-breaking title win. In terms of the league he's gotten 76 goals and 28 assists in the last 4 seasons or averaged a goal/assist every 94 minutes. In the last two seasons he's averaged a (league) goal/assist every 95 minutes. Last season he averaged a (league) goal/assist every 92 minutes. Yeah, he's on a pretty drastic decline.

The only reason people are jumping on the "Rooney's past it" bandwagon is because they've forgotten about his injuries and so the lack of goals is taken out of context. He played just 2017 league minutes last season which equates to just over 22 full games. It's the lowest amount in his United career. There's a clear correlation being fitness/playing time issues and goal returns in Rooney's last 5 seasons; in the two seasons he's played over 2500 minutes/started over 30 league games he's scored over 25 league goals, in the other three seasons he's scored under 15. It's not like he suddenly became poor in these seasons though, last season and in 10/11 because he couldn't be relied on to be our main goalscorer he simply took on a more creative role and allowed Berbatov/Hernández and van Persie to be our go-to man for goals. In both of those seasons he was one of just a handful of players to get into double figures for both goals and assists. Unless you've got some kind of evidence that he's now in such poor conditioning that he'll have to resign himself to starting under 30 league games every season from now on then any suggestion he's past his peak is clearly ridiculously knee-jerk.
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In all those case you mentioned the buying team was DESPERATE for the player so they payed whatever was wanted. Unless there is a team that wants Rooney that bad we won't get that kind of bid. The teams that can/will play that much seem set in that position or want other players more than they want Rooney.

Rooney is a worldclass finisher his best skill now I would say. But his all round game has declined somewhat and physically he doesn't look the same player he was 2-3 years ago that was a big part of his game. I'd be surprised if others haven't picked up on this. The current Rooney is still one of the most important players in our team and has proved so this season but at 27 when he should be hitting his peak his performances don't suggest as such. I agree he has been injured this season but i'm looking at his performances outside the goal he has been having the typical Rooney 'off days' more often in the last two years than ever. Most fans know he brings more to the table than goals despite the fact he has scored 40 odd goals in the last two seasons it has been described as a two-year decline hardly knee jerk.
 
apotheosis said:
Depends on why he stays. If he stays only because the financial package for others to sign him is too excessive, and not because he is wanted by the club to again be one of the main men, then i doubt that would particularly inflate his own opinion of his standing.

Much depends on Moyes. If he gives him the assurances he wants, which i doubt, then i would agree with you. But hopefully Moyes will just tell him he is still wanted but not guaranteed a place. The ball is in his court then, and we will find out if he is willing to earn a place like everybody else or whether he simply expects one based on his name, not his performances.
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If he stays it proves he can do whatever he wants and not be punished for it.
 
JaffyJoe said:
100 million are you being serious??
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With hindsight - absolutely.

I think Real got a bargain to be honest. I know at the time that we couldn't have asked for more, but am sure they are more than happy with the return on their investment.
 
swooshboy said:
With hindsight - absolutely.

I think Real got a bargain to be honest. I know at the time that we couldn't have asked for more, but am sure they are more than happy with the return on their investment.
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80 million is enough honestly for what they got. He isn't the best player in the world if he goes for 100 million how much for Messi?
 
We were all pretty blown away with £80m at the time, I don't remember anyone feeling short changed back then.
 
Sources have just informed me that MUTV is currently airing a programme showing all of Wayne Rooney's goals for United.

Nostalgia and farewell to Wayne?

This is why we are keeping Rodders?

wr8 is now in charge of the channel's scheduling?

Wayne Rooney is in fact a lizard from a planet orbiting Gliese 667C?
 
Nick 0208 Ldn said:
Sources have just informed me that MUTV is currently airing a programme showing all of Wayne Rooney's goals for United.

Nostalgia and farewell to Wayne?

This is why we are keeping Rodders?

wr8 is now in charge of the channel's scheduling?

Wayne Rooney is in fact a lizard from a planet orbiting Gliese 667C?
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Or Its summertime and we've got bugger all else to show?
 
apotheosis said:
Yes well i agree with much of that Ash, but i have to differ on the one season blip suggestion. Last season was simply the first season he has been left out for playing poorly. The truth as i see it, is that despite his goals, he hasn't regularly performed anywhere near his best since before the 2010 WC.

Most telling for me was that despite a good goal return 2 seasons ago, SAF still felt the need to buy RVP and make him his main man. That surely is indication that SAF felt he needed more up front than Rooney was regularly providing. Many could not understand why we were even going for RVP last summer, but a season on and the reason is now glaringly obvious. He inspired the team to have more belief than it had before. The season before we went behind 11 times and failed to win any from that position. In contrast how many times did we come back last year from losing positions to win?

That is surely what SAF believed he would get from RVP that he didn't feel he was getting from Rooney. Even the acquisition of Kagawa provides another option to rooney behind the striker. All this suggests that despite his goals, SAF did not feel we were getting enough from Rooney in terms of performance and inspiration. So it can't be just about goals surely? If we played Hernandez regularly, would we not expect a 20+ goal return from him over the season. Of course we would, but the reason he doesn't start more is that he doesn't offer enough in other areas compared to the likes of Rooney and RVP. But Hernandez is brilliant at what he does and he regularly produces what we would expect from him. However Rooney is capable of far more generally, and so it is not unreasonable to expect more than goals from him.

He finds himself in his current situation not due to any one season 'blip' in my view, that would surely indicate SAF took dramatic steps to give himself serious alternatives to Rooney last summer before Rooney had even had his blip! No, far more likely that he took those steps because he felt were lacking something due to Rooney's regularly below par displays over the past couple of seasons, as opposed to just buying Kagawa and RVP coincidentally as alternatives to Rooney's position, for no particular reason.
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Well I'd agree he hasn't been at his best each season since 2010 but that doesn't make those seasons a blip. I can't think of many players who are always at their best. What you can say though is that regardless of how "well" he's played in recent seasons, he's still produced the goods.

I agree completely that Fergie thought he needed something which is why he got RVP but there are also other factors. RVP represented a rare chance to get a legitimate world class player for a relatively cheap price. He also gave the squad a much needed extra presence so that Rooney wasn't always carrying the main hope for the team. Kagawa too was a top young player available at a great price and represented a type of player we lacked.

Also signing RVP whilst likely due to wanting more from Rooney, was also simple recognition that we could still improve as a team and this season showed we still have improvements to make it we want to get back up their with the likes of Bayern. We'll need some extra players for that as well. We could expect more from Rooney and I think we may have been hoping that the extra competition for Rooney would make him up his game, and rightfully so it made him droppable, but I don't really think that Fergie signed RVP in order to phase Rooney out of the team. He did it to compliment him which is why in general Rooney started more games than he missed. RVP gave us the ability to not be reliant on Rooney but it seems to me the intention was to improve our team by having the two of them, rather than saying Rooney isn't good enough.
 
apotheosis said:
Yes well i agree with much of that Ash, but i have to differ on the one season blip suggestion. Last season was simply the first season he has been left out for playing poorly. The truth as i see it, is that despite his goals, he hasn't regularly performed anywhere near his best since before the 2010 WC.

Most telling for me was that despite a good goal return 2 seasons ago, SAF still felt the need to buy RVP and make him his main man. That surely is indication that SAF felt he needed more up front than Rooney was regularly providing. Many could not understand why we were even going for RVP last summer, but a season on and the reason is now glaringly obvious. He inspired the team to have more belief than it had before. The season before we went behind 11 times and failed to win any from that position. In contrast how many times did we come back last year from losing positions to win?

That is surely what SAF believed he would get from RVP that he didn't feel he was getting from Rooney. Even the acquisition of Kagawa provides another option to rooney behind the striker. All this suggests that despite his goals, SAF did not feel we were getting enough from Rooney in terms of performance and inspiration. So it can't be just about goals surely? If we played Hernandez regularly, would we not expect a 20+ goal return from him over the season. Of course we would, but the reason he doesn't start more is that he doesn't offer enough in other areas compared to the likes of Rooney and RVP. But Hernandez is brilliant at what he does and he regularly produces what we would expect from him. However Rooney is capable of far more generally, and so it is not unreasonable to expect more than goals from him.

He finds himself in his current situation not due to any one season 'blip' in my view, that would surely indicate SAF took dramatic steps to give himself serious alternatives to Rooney last summer before Rooney had even had his blip! No, far more likely that he took those steps because he felt were lacking something due to Rooney's regularly below par displays over the past couple of seasons, as opposed to just buying Kagawa and RVP coincidentally as alternatives to Rooney's position, for no particular reason.
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I think what is equally telling is the repeated defence of Rooney with statistics these days - that's never what he's been about when he's been on his game. His contribution was once so good that you could've stripped him of the vast majority of these numbers without losing most of his contribution, where as nowadays there often wouldn't be a lot left. Goals and assists are obviously not irrelevant but this is such a huge indicator that Rooney is not playing at anywhere near his potential.

Agreed that this began two years ago, by the way. I am quite surprised to be honest that more people haven't aligned the general decline in the quality of our football during this period with the decline of Rooney's game. The two have happened simultaneously. It's not solely his fault but he's a big part of a problem with regards to problems with fluidity and keeping possession.
 
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