Rooney is miles better than Welbeck as the main striker, how's that even debatable given Welbeck's poor finishing? He was played ahead of Rooney because he did a better defensive job on Xabi Alonso.
Wayne Rooney | 2012-14 Performances
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Rooney is miles better than Welbeck as the main striker, how's that even debatable given Welbeck's poor finishing? He was played ahead of Rooney because he did a better defensive job on Xabi Alonso.
Ridiculous really, he's got 27 goals in 138 in games in his career so far and he thinks Welbeck is better as a lone striker
Uh oh
Dave Goddard @DaveGoddard1971
Understand a certain number 10 is still set on a move away from MUFC
He's a football agent apparently.
Dave Goddard @DaveGoddard1971
Understand a certain number 10 is still set on a move away from MUFC
He's a football agent apparently.
Yes I know that and I think Rooney is a better finisher than RVP as well but I have never liked Rooney as the lone striker. For one he is quite poor with his back to goal and as a result in games where we are under pressure he is of absolutely no help in retaining possession and bringing others into play. Welbeck is much better than Rooney in this regard and look up RVP's performance against Real at the Bernebeau to see how much difference it can make to have someone like that up top.
I prefer Rooney in a deeper role because I think his influence becomes a lot less potent and he can become isolated and frustrated as a lone striker, but he's miles better than Welbeck up there. Whether Welbeck can retain possession and bring others into play or not, the primary goal of a striker is to score, and there's only one of the two who wins in that regard and it's comfortable. If Rooney only scored slightly more often than Welbeck then you'd perhaps have a point, but he scores a lot more and I don't think I'd even agree with your other points as Rooney is generally better than Welbeck at pretty much everything as a forward.
Shark 22 I get where you are coming from. Welbeck has a greater ability to beat a man, a more reliable touch and he is a better athlete with a height and reach Rooney cannot match all ideal attributes for a lone striker. But Roney is stronger so he can also hold the ball up coupled with his lower centre of gravity he is hard to knock off the ball. Rooney is the far more accomplished finisher, he is more creative and a better/more varied passer and has the ability to pull of moments of brilliance that Welbeck doesn't can't. So I can see where you are coming from. But they are strikers who should be first and foremost judged on their ability to score goals and they are WORLD'S APART in that regard.
Welbeck has amazing potential but if he can't get that ability to be a deadly finisher and source of 20-30 goals a season he will end up being a squad player. He needs reps upfront but will he get them here currently? anyway that's a convo for the Welbeck thread.
Welbeck has amazing potential but if he can't get that ability to be a deadly finisher and source of 20-30 goals a season he will end up being a squad player. He needs reps upfront but will he get them here currently? anyway that's a convo for the Welbeck thread.
Well if he says he's an agent on Twitter I see no reason not to believe him.
It's irrelevant what you like or your preference of Rooney's best position, the fact of the matter is Rooney was playing some of his best footbal for us when given a long spell as the lone striker in 09-10 season, and Welbeck has yet to show he can be as good as that. If holding the ball and bringing others into play (without actually scoring) is what the main striker is judged on, then Heskey's not too shabby either. I like Welbeck but until he improves his finishing, he's not a better lone striker than Rooney.
I'd say Rooney's best football came in the latter half of the 10/11 season when he played off hernandez.
I am not advocating playing Welbeck ahead of Rooney every game as the lone striker, just in games like the Madrid one where are likely to be under the cosh and Welbeck's attributes would suit us a lot more than Rooney. Rooney would still play of course but not as the lone striker
All these rumours coming out today about him wanting to "still" leave can only mean one thing - we're about to open talks with his side on a new contract 
Wayne Mark Rooney
Agree with Bape strikers are first and foremost judged as goalscorers and Welbeck is not good enough in that regard currently as much as he does the other stuff. Also Rooney's best football had to be 09/10 on track to score 40 goals that year his form that season would of given him the title of world's best striker if he maintained it. 10/11 was quality also but 09/10 larger body of work for me.
That's quite a contentious view. Do you mean best football in terms of goalscoring? Since he was the lone striker that season, he saw less of the ball and his overall play was not very good.
So best football means best production relative to that position's expectations? This would mean it wouldn't matter how good Rooney's overall performances were, just that he scored goals because that's his primary job as a striker.
Has he actually said he doesn't want to play for us?
I'm a bit out of the loop re Rooney - bogged down with home stuff, been on holiday etc.
He was still highly rated enough when he wasn't as prolific as he has been the past 4 years or so. A lot of his best football was when he was linking up with Ronaldo IMO.
IF any of the new talk is true, that he is still keen on leaving, David Moyes needs to do every fan of this club a favour, open the door and say get the feck out. Go back through my posts and anyone will see Ive been a big fan of rooney through the years.
The fact of the matter is though, we are far too blinded by him being a good player and our own fear of not replacing him to realise that he's behaving in such a way that we laugh at other clubs in that situation. His original request and the manner and wording of it was unforgivable to many. as far as i saw there was only conditional forgiveness from the others, myself included. But this has gone too far now.
From a footballing point of view he has dipped in and out of form for far too long. Wayne Rooney at his best, no matter where he plays, is in my opinion better than everyone else at the club. I doubt that anyone will ever see his best again. I despise see him when he's in a "mood" like a spoilt child, or how little joy it seems he plays with. I despise his antics on the weekend everybody else in the world wanted to celebrate number 20 and fergies send off, wayne wanted a little strop and sulk. He's been an asshole of Tevez proportions and only if he goes will people realise that. He strikes me as an incredibly immature and stupid man, no doubt led around by an agent.
He has two choices next week. One is to man up and actually hand in a transfer request and find a new club. the other is to keep his head down and prove himself to a new manager. knowing rooney of the last couple of seasons though, he'll probably spend his summer putting on half a stone extra and return unfit for work.
How anybody can even begin to defend him at this stage is just mind boggling.
The fact of the matter is though, we are far too blinded by him being a good player and our own fear of not replacing him to realise that he's behaving in such a way that we laugh at other clubs in that situation. His original request and the manner and wording of it was unforgivable to many. as far as i saw there was only conditional forgiveness from the others, myself included. But this has gone too far now.
From a footballing point of view he has dipped in and out of form for far too long. Wayne Rooney at his best, no matter where he plays, is in my opinion better than everyone else at the club. I doubt that anyone will ever see his best again. I despise see him when he's in a "mood" like a spoilt child, or how little joy it seems he plays with. I despise his antics on the weekend everybody else in the world wanted to celebrate number 20 and fergies send off, wayne wanted a little strop and sulk. He's been an asshole of Tevez proportions and only if he goes will people realise that. He strikes me as an incredibly immature and stupid man, no doubt led around by an agent.
He has two choices next week. One is to man up and actually hand in a transfer request and find a new club. the other is to keep his head down and prove himself to a new manager. knowing rooney of the last couple of seasons though, he'll probably spend his summer putting on half a stone extra and return unfit for work.
How anybody can even begin to defend him at this stage is just mind boggling.
Still wants to leave? Don't let the door hit you're fat arse on the way out, Wayne Mark Rooney.
It's such a tiresome saga in which the silence speaks volumes.
Thanks for 10 years Wayne. Ta'ra.
Thanks for 10 years Wayne. Ta'ra.
I seriously doubt if Rooney will make it anywhere else then the EPL .
It really is growing tiresome. If he wants to go, send him to PSG. He tweeted about Paris anyway
Yup. Send him to Paris, and get some money to re-invest from his sale.
feck you all wankers. Now that will be a good team!Rooney Robin
Cristiano Tiago Anderson Valencia
Rafael Vidic Rio Evra
David
I like your novel approach with Evra and Rafael switching places.
Other than that it's horrible. And both Rodney and the other bloke are misspelled.
Other than that it's horrible. And both Rodney and the other bloke are misspelled.
Right now I'd say Rooney is better than Welbeck in any position, except maybe for the wing positions.
Having said that, I think that Rooney in the no.10 position is massively overrated. I can think of several players in this world who I'd put ahead of Rooney in that role. Mata, Silva, Iniesta, Özil and Kagawa, for instance. There are also several young players like Götze, Reus and Isco who look like they're about to surpass him(if they haven't already).
I still think that Rooney is a lone striker who happens to be versatile and mobile enough to play as a no.10. But he has never been a typical no.10, nor will he ever be. His close control, short passing, link-ups and creativity is just not good enough for that. The reason we've played Rooney as a no.10, is because is because of our style and player material. As long as Rooney participates with goals and assists, as well as working hard, there hasn't really been a reason for us to change our "winning model". But whenever people have complained about lack of fluidity in attack, sloppy passing in the attacking third, and generally being overrun in midfield, Rooney has also been a part of the problem. It's not just our "horrible" midfield that is to blame. Having a player like Mata or Kagawa up front might not result in as many goals, but it's still much better for the rest of the players on the field. I also think it's a necessary step in order to become a power in Europe again. We got unlucky against Real, fair enough. But we still have something to prove.
Before Kagawa came, we didn't have anyone but Rooney to play behind the striker. When Kagawa came, so did RVP. That made SAF change his plans of moving Rooney further up the field. It is pretty obvious by now. At the end of the day, Kagawa already looks like he's around Rooney's level in terms of skills in general, and he's also much better suited for the no.10 role. Why not conclude that Rooney is the elephant in the room by now? Kagawa is 24 and needs more playtime in order to become the star that he is. He also has a much more professional attitude. He deserves the spot now.
That is why I have no problems whatsoever with Rooney leaving. Obviously the main reason is because of his attitude, but I still don't see why he's so important to the team. He's a really good player who most teams would kill to have. But there are several better strikers and no.10's out there. What makes Rooney stand out is his versatility. But in the end, being a specialist might have been better for him. A jack of all trades will struggle to settle in a very specific role when the competition is so vast.
Well said SER19
My sentiments exactly
My sentiments exactly
This entire paragraph is full of crap and I thought I was harsh towards Rooney earlier.
at the bit in bold.I don't think Rooney's strengths as a number 10 have really come from things such as his passing ability and close control. What was always most impressive about him was ability to transform a defence into attack almost immediately. Because he's a hard worker when he can be bothered and would constantly track back, he could be a nightmare for midfielders of the opposition. When he picked up the ball in midfield it was that ability to suddenly burst forward and create an attack out of nothing that made him very good in the role. His top performances there have been fairly limited, but during 2010/2011 he had a brilliant spell towards the end of the season and was crucial in our title win and our being CL finalists.
The problem is that his game can be so hot and cold. One game he'll look very good on the ball and his passing will be up to scratch while he'll control it well. Then, the next game he'll come out and produce some sloppy passing and will constantly give the ball away due to poor control. If he could maintain that top level a lot then he'd be a brilliant deep lying striker for us but it's that inconsistency of his overall game which means he's not completely won everyone over there.
The problem is that his game can be so hot and cold. One game he'll look very good on the ball and his passing will be up to scratch while he'll control it well. Then, the next game he'll come out and produce some sloppy passing and will constantly give the ball away due to poor control. If he could maintain that top level a lot then he'd be a brilliant deep lying striker for us but it's that inconsistency of his overall game which means he's not completely won everyone over there.
I keep seeing this and it is true in the sense that they could definitely link up well, but for me some of Rooney's worst form for this club coincided with Ronaldo's best. I used to defend Rooney blindly back then but it wasn't entirely rational looking back. The excuse was that Rooney was 'sacrificed', but the truth of the matter is that Rooney underwent a fairly sharp decline during 06/07 and, in particular, 07/08, and it was at this point that his touch/dribbling ability started deserting him. Watching the games back again from 05/06 reaffirms this view, and it was only in 08/09 when he was playing on the left that he really started to start looking as good as he did a few years before that. When Ronaldo then left us, Rooney had that highly influential season as the lone striker in 2010, before then becoming the complete article in 2011 after the City overhead kick.
Basically, Rooney's best form and football in my opinion has come when Ronaldo has either not been here or has not been at the height of his game. The two combined wonderfully at times but there was never a season whereby they were both in top form.
Don't think that's true at all. His form dipped in 2008/2009 and this was the season where we were horrible going forward for the most part but for the seasons before that he was very good.
He was definitely off colour during parts of that season, but the point was that there was a period (in and around the second half of the season) whereby he started once more looking like the explosive player of his younger years. This came during a season whereby Ronaldo was a shadow of the player he was previously and looking pretty poor a lot of the time. Really though, it was only in 2010 that Rooney reached the levels of influence I think we all expected him to; there is a lot of romanticism about the Tevez/Rooney/Ronaldo trio, but Ronaldo was so far ahead of the other two that season that it wasn't even close. Neither Tevez nor Rooney played anything like as well as they could do (as is evidenced by Tevez at City and Rooney post-Ronaldo).
There was a system in place that year whereby Rooney and Tevez played an integral role in 'defending from the front', but nevertheless they were playing way within themselves in an attacking sense for the most part. Rooney's touch was genuinely all over the place for huge parts of 07/08.
Toodle pip Wayne. You silly little boy, like many have said before "it's only a step down after United"
I find himself coming into this thread and saying the same thing over and over again, but yeah...I largely agree with this. The midfield criticisms are lazy and completely ignore the issues we have in linking it with the attack. We will still these problems even if we do sign Thiago should Rooney's consistency not become more fitting for someone of his role.
What I don't agree with is that Rooney was never ideal for that position - I would be absolutely beside myself if Kagawa ever reached the level Rooney did. I rate Kagawa highly but I have never seen him play at the level Rooney has done in the past.
You might have a point in 07/08, although I think you're exaggerating a bit with regards to his non-performance. He was highly influential and if I recall correctly other than that freak game against Portsmouth we didn't lose a single game while he was on the pitch.
06/07 was just Rooney-Ronaldo brilliance when our attack wasn't completely built around Ronaldo
I'm not saying he was poor by any means; just drawing the comparison between those two seasons and 05/06. He was comfortably the best player we had for the majority of that season and it was a tragedy that he got that foot injury.
I'd rank 06/07 as good/very good and 07/08 as good. Saha was better than Rooney in the first half of 06/07, and Giggs, Ferdinand, Vidic, Scholes and Ronaldo were all playing at a different level throughout the whole of it. Rooney really did have some great performances (Bolton hat-trick, Milan, Roma, etc...) but the speculation at the time was that Rooney's metatarsal injury had done lasting damage.
Still, I appreciate that this is a difficult discussion to have and cannot be backed up by anything other than perceptions. Stats do not really do justice to the discussion so it all becomes a load of "well Rooney was this then, and wasn't like that then" without having the re-runs of the games at hand.
All these rumours coming out today about him wanting to "still" leave can only mean one thing - we're about to open talks with his side on a new contract
feck a new contract, show him the door and tell him to shut it on his way out.
KingEric7 said:
The first half of 06/07 he was lacking in form but he picked up form in the second half of the season and ended up scoring as much as Ronaldo (both on 23). Pretty sure Ancelotti said something after the Milan game that United have two world class players and that Rooney should have had more attention on him instead of just Ronaldo. His second half of the season form is understated that season, he was excellent.
07/08 his finishing let him down, despite scoring 18. His all round game was still very good though. Here is my post from the start of this very thread in 2008.. "He's doing almost everything except scoring, for a striker he needs to do that and then he'll be fine."
If Wayne going means more games for Kagawa in the hole behind the striker then it's two tears in a bucket for me.
I can't ever see him abroad. He's got a young family and basically he's too thick and lazy to even try and adjust to a new culture.
Only clubs in this league he could play for (who could afford him) are us, Chelsea and City.
I can't ever see him abroad. He's got a young family and basically he's too thick and lazy to even try and adjust to a new culture.
Only clubs in this league he could play for (who could afford him) are us, Chelsea and City.
It's one of those things we'll have to just disagree on, ultimately. I agree with you regarding the second half of the 06/07 season for what it's worth (hence mentions of Roma and Milan) - he definitely improved then and that's why I'd say his season was more edging towards the 'good/very good' category. The form he showed after that opening Fulham game was really surprising though and the stars of our attack were undoubtedly Ronaldo, Giggs and Saha.
I was basically living in denial about Rooney during that period, funnily enough. I remember arguing to no end on here and everywhere else about him being as good as Ronaldo, the most important player in the team, etc, but truthfully I remember walking out of games during 06/07 and 07/08 wondering what was going on with him.
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