Wayne Rooney | 2012-14 Performances

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SteveJ said:
True. However, the 'manager problem' isn't the main point of my doubts about this latest fuss. To me, it isn't about SAF or Moyes or playing positions or even being dropped - once again, it's all about the potential pluses or minuses of contract negotiations. That's the endgame here, IMO, and the rest is just window-dressing from Rooney's camp.
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But players angling for a new deal usually go into over-drive on the pitch - football history is littered with such cases. If Rooney is after a better deal (fwiw, I don't feel that it's a primary motivator for him), his form hasn't made a strong case, has it?

I think he's looking for assurances that he's still a pivotal player.
 
Feed Me said:
But players angling for a new deal usually go into over-drive on the pitch - football history is littered with such cases. If Rooney is after a better deal (fwiw, I don't feel that it's a primary motivator for him), his form hasn't made a strong case, has it?

I think he's looking for assurances that he's still a pivotal player.
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Perhaps Rooney feels that his past efforts and commercial status means that he has no need to play out of his skin. Besides, it could be that he & his people mostly fear a reduction in salary. And of course, being dropped and/or not being played in his position of choice has a knock-on effect regarding his 'brand'.
 
Feed Me said:
We've got two years left on his deal, so there's no need for us to be short changed - put it this way, I don't see United selling cheaply.

What's more, I don't see us selling to another English club - we are not Arsenal, and we have seen first hand with RvP how selling to a rival can have such a massive impact.

That leaves Rooney, with a new child and a family that is settled in the north west, looking beyond these shores - is he inclined to do that? I'm not so sure.

As I've said time and again, this situation doesn't feel like him angling for more cash. It feels like him being frustrated at being a relatively marginal figure since RvP came in. I think the change of manager could be good for him to get his spark back. I don't buy into the talk of him being past his best at just 27.
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I agree with much of that but I don't think it is just a case of being short changed though FeedMe, you are only being shortchanged if you don't receive a representative value. All i am suggesting is that if we still maintain that a player out of form, out of favour and low on confidence is still worth £40m, while rooney and his agent still demand upwards of £200k wages, then his options are limited only because he is no longer justifying those types of figures, any more than torres now is.

I think rooney could stay based upon not having any willing buyers. Had he more potential suitors, do you really think he would stay? I'm not so sure, i think moyes could turn it around for him, but will Rooney be able to win the fans over after yet another demand to leave? I don't think so personally, he knew full well after last time what manner of reaction yet another request would provoke, yet he did it anyway.

If he does stay i hope it is because he wants to be here and that sentiment is shared by the club. A scenario of him staying here unhappily because he has no other options due mainly to cost is not a particularly positive outcome for anyone.
 
SteveJ said:
Perhaps Rooney feels that his past efforts and commercial status means that he has no need to play out of his skin. Besides, it could be that he & his people mostly fear a reduction in salary. And of course, being dropped and/or not being played in his position of choice has a knock-on effect regarding his 'brand'.
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You could apply that logic for any player who has made it - and there's no proof for any supposed downturn in his effort/application levels.

I personally don't look at Rooney, long term, and worry about his commitment. He's looked like an unhappy player this season; I don't think that should be confused with him no longer being interested in applying himself.
 
apotheosis said:
I agree with much of that but I don't think it is just a case of being short changed though FeedMe, you are only being shortchanged if you don't receive a representative value. All i am suggesting is that if we still maintain that a player out of form, out of favour and low on confidence is still worth £40m, while rooney and his agent still demand upwards of £200k wages, then his options are limited only because he is no longer justifying those types of figures, any more than torres now is.

I think rooney could stay based upon not having any willing buyers. Had he more potential suitors, do you really think he would stay? I'm not so sure, i think moyes could turn it around for him, but will Rooney be able to win the fans over after yet another demand to leave? I don't think so personally, he knew full well after last time what manner of reaction yet another request would provoke, yet he did it anyway.

If he does stay i hope it is because he wants to be here and that sentiment is shared by the club. A scenario of him staying here unhappily because he has no other options due mainly to cost is not a particularly positive outcome for anyone.
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I just think it's ludicrous that Rooney is being compared with Torres. Even below par this season, and occasionally in midfield, Rooney posted good figures. Torres went half a season without scoring in the PL!

In context, he's had one season where things have gone a bit awry - is that enough to cut him adrift? I don't think so - he's exactly the sort of player who could end up with 25 goals next season, and PotY levels of performance.
 
After reading the transfer rumour mill article, I'm just going to back "I know feck all" stance. Too many variables and we don't know very much about this situation. All I am going to say is from my personal opinion, I think we are looking to sell rooney and that even though he would prefer staying in England, he won't have much choice but to go abroad since we have the upper hand in negotiations
 
It all depends on how much or little benefit of the doubt we're willing to give him. For me, it's beyond coincidence that, once again, he has issues at a particularly important time regarding his contract-status. However, I might think differently if he wasn't represented by an agent like Paul Stretford, a man even Wayne himself would be foolish to trust given the revelations of Stretford's 2010 court case.
 
Platato said:
After reading the transfer rumour mill article, I'm just going to back "I know feck all" stance. Too many variables and we don't know very much about this situation. All I am going to say is from my personal opinion, I think we are looking to sell rooney and that even though he would prefer staying in England, he won't have much choice but to go abroad since we have the upper hand in negotiations
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Why have a raft of ex-players been queuing up to dissuade him from leaving, in that case?
 
Those are the ex-players, they do not necessarily speak for Fergie or whoever is handling our transfer business at the moment. I take it that they're offering their personal opinion. On the contrary, you have a point. They're all towing the company line and going for a unified message (keep Rooney at United). It may be a combination of both. A lot of professionals highly rate Wayne. I'm sure we'll find out more in a few weeks but how much longer can we afford for this saga to go? It's one of the few transfer sagas which really has me unsettled.
 
Platato said:
Those are the ex-players, they do not necessarily speak for Fergie or whoever is handling our transfer business at the moment. I take it that they're offering their personal opinion. On the contrary, you have a point. They're all towing the company line and going for a unified message (keep Rooney at United). It may be a combination of both. A lot of professionals highly rate Wayne. I'm sure we'll find out more in a few weeks but how much longer can we afford for this saga to go? It's one of the few transfer sagas which really has me unsettled.
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Do you want him to stay?
 
On the condition he improves on his displays from last season. I want to see a more consistent Wayne. His stats from last season are pretty good despite his mediocre performances. I'd say he had an average season. Problem is, part of me is unsure if Wayne will get that much better. Due to his family history of weight gain and his summer holiday habits, I'm not entirely optimistic about his fitness. When I saw him play in the England friendly, he looked determined and lively as ever. That's what I want to see of him if he does stay and I hope he can maintain it.

At the same time, if he goes, I won't be losing any sleep over it. I'm sure the initial announcement would fill me with a bit of sadness. No one likes losing a quality player. Nonetheless, he's just one player and we would have to find a way to move on without him. Personally I think some of the Rooney praise can be a bit much but we all have differing viewpoints here.
 
Ok, I will say it like it is! I want Wayne Rooney to stay. We are depending heavily on this man to succeed in CL. If we start selling players like him and replace them with fringe players like Kawaga, we won't last long. We will just be looking like a new Everton. He's been class for 10 years now and only a handfull of players are that good.
 
Kagawa could be one of our main players next season. You make it sound as if the lad is bound to just be a squad player. Strange.
 
Platato said:
Kagawa could be one of our main players next season. You make it sound as if the lad is bound to just be a squad player. Strange.
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I hope he will be. However, depending on what set-up Moyes prefers, we might end up with a "something has to give" situation. If we retain Rooney, and keep playing him in a deeper role, his main position on the field will be roughly that which would suit Kagawa best. Kagawa will have to make some kind of left-ish, wide-ish role his own. I believe he can work well, perhaps even very well, in such a role - but it is, arguably, not his best role.

On the other hand, if we retain Rooney and start using him as a sheer striker again, that will necessarily affect both RVP and, not least, Chicharito.

One might say this simply makes Moyes spoilt for choice - but the reality is often a bit more tricky. These are top players we're talking about - they want to play as much as possible, and preferably in their best positions.

If I were Moyes I would consider a set-up which is more "wing-less" than the one largely favoured by Fergie. Some kind of 4-3-3 which can fit both RVP and Rooney at the same time - with Kagawa either as the third man up front or as the most offensive of the three further back. Chicharito would play a Solskjær role in this set-up: Coming in off the bench - but doing so regularly, as it were.

We'll see what Dave goes for. But if he intends to set up roughly as Fergie has (which is - very roughly - how he has set up with Everton) we might have a problem on our hands, giving enough minutes to all these players.
 
We sure will. I'm looking forward to it. I can't wait for transfer season to be over and we can talk about actual football. Handling top class players will be quite an adjustment for Moyes. Deciding how to handle playing time for our current strikeforce isn't easy either. I guess if I was Moyes, I wouldn't mind being spoilt for choice.

I think your 4-3-3 idea sounds good. It would make sense if we do decide not to bring in a winger and Nani leaves. I wouldn't be averse to Moyes using multiple formations/tactics. The main task will be picking up results whilst keeping squad members happy.
 
Feed Me said:
I just think it's ludicrous that Rooney is being compared with Torres. Even below par this season, and occasionally in midfield, Rooney posted good figures. Torres went half a season without scoring in the PL!

In context, he's had one season where things have gone a bit awry - is that enough to cut him adrift? I don't think so - he's exactly the sort of player who could end up with 25 goals next season, and PotY levels of performance.
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In context, it was enough for Saf to drop him and after that he has cut himself adrift tbf. Hardly a reaction to adversity that has done him many favors really.

Torres is only being compared in the context of someone having to pay far more for him than his current situation suggests he is reasonably worth. If Bale is shit next year will anyone be talking £85m, i think it's fair to say not. Rooney may have the ability to be worth more, but his form was poor enough for SAF to leave him out more than ever before. That surely deflates his value as well as his standing. Prices are highest when the stock is highest, when the stock drops, the demand is less and the price drops accordingly. I believe their would be far more suitors if the financial package was not as high.

He could rediscover his form of course, but he would have to do so under difficult conditions regarding press attention and negative reactions from many of our own fans. I think much could be made in the press -true or not - regarding his relationship with Moyes, it's a soap opera neither will need, so a change could be best for both parties imo. Rooney may rediscover his zest for the game somewhere else, he may do it here but i have my doubts about that personally.
 
apotheosis said:
In context, it was enough for Saf to drop him and after that he has cut himself adrift tbf. Hardly a reaction to adversity that has done him many favors really.

Torres is only being compared in the context of someone having to pay far more for him than his current situation suggests he is reasonably worth. If Bale is shit next year will anyone be talking £85m, i think it's fair to say not. Rooney may have the ability to be worth more, but his form was poor enough for SAF to leave him out more than ever before. That surely deflates his value as well as his standing. Prices are highest when the stock is highest, when the stock drops, the demand is less and the price drops accordingly. I believe their would be far more suitors if the financial package was not as high.

He could rediscover his form of course, but he would have to do so under difficult conditions regarding press attention and negative reactions from many of our own fans. I think much could be made in the press -true or not - regarding his relationship with Moyes, it's a soap opera neither will need, so a change could be best for both parties imo. Rooney may rediscover his zest for the game somewhere else, he may do it here but i have my doubts about that personally.
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Rooney may not have performed to the level of his pay packet last season, but the drop off wasn't massively pronounced - certainly no where near enough to draw any sort of parallels with Torres. He had a below par season, and was still one of the most productive attacking players in the league - a bit of perspective wouldn't go amiss. If we want to talk about players playing well below their level, someone like Valencia would be a more suitable figure of attention.
 
well perspective works both ways. i don't want to argue over points i don't really disagree with you on. I am not writing Rooney off as a player, i just think the race is run with him and many of our fans now. I think we differ more on how rooney's current situation could reflect upon potential suitors thinking he is still worth buying. Huge wages and a considerable transfer fee will only push the possibilities down. I am not really arsed whether he stays or goes personally, i am pretty objective so my indifference is probably the best Rooney can hope from many fans should he stay. I don't think it will be easy even if he wants to stay, which i am not convinced he does. He knew the reaction a second request to leave would bring, and he must surely be trying to engineer a move. It could have backfired if his own opinion of his standing is based upon the level of interest the last time he asked to leave.

A lot will depend on how Moyes views it, more than what Rooney wants imo. If Moyes plays hardball and commands a big fee, i don't see anyone paying it. That is why i am suggesting a more reasonable price will bring in more potential suitors, and both parties can move on without further drama.
 
7even said:
Just out of curiosity. What do you prefer Moyes to do?

1. Keep Rooney on current contract and see if he takes the challenge.
2. Cash in on Rooney and try to buy Thiago and Strootman/Fellaini.
3. Give Rooney a new improved contract with the possibility that this restrict the club to buy other high profile players. (for ex Thiago)
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OPTION 2 EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK.

feck him...if nots not more money, it's because he's not playing. Next he'll want to leave because he doesn't like one of the faces Phil Jones' has pulled.

Sell him to PSG
 
Depending on his attitude come August, either option 1 or 2. If he's continually determined to leave, then option 2. If not, then I'm happy either way. Just not the 3rd option though.
 
Feed Me said:
Rooney may not have performed to the level of his pay packet last season, but the drop off wasn't massively pronounced - certainly no where near enough to draw any sort of parallels with Torres. He had a below par season, and was still one of the most productive attacking players in the league - a bit of perspective wouldn't go amiss. If we want to talk about players playing well below their level, someone like Valencia would be a more suitable figure of attention.
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Correct.
 
Tyy Dyyy said:
No offense Sparky, you're a good poster and a sound fella but your constant Rooney bashing is getting old. Its not even like you're criticizing his ability or mentioning football half the time, its just childish name calling.
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Fair enough, I'll try to at least Appear objective....until he leaves where I reserve the right to celebrate...be fair...I've been waiting nine years :)

The fairest solution for all parties would to be for us to tell Rooney that depending on form we will play him as a forward, if he signs a one year extension, leaving us in a sound position next summer if he didn't improve to an acceptable level.
 
Indulging in some more sheer speculation here, I would say that if Rooney is indeed trying to engineer a move - and has been doing so ever since he requested (in what form we do not know, but I find it very unlikely that he has handed in a formal transfer request) - then his infamous agent hasn't been doing his homework: It's obvious that the number of teams willing to A) pay United a shitload for him and B) match his current salary or even top it - is slender indeed. I find it hard to believe that Rooney and his agent simply presupposed that the interest would be the same as it was three years ago - and that they now find themselves realizing their "scheme" has backfired.

I'm leaning more to a different theory: That Rooney and Fergie had a bit of a falling out - mainly because Rooney felt Fergie had lost faith in him: He wasn't Fergie's main man anymore, and he didn't like that. Call it being petulant, call it failing to deal with the challenge posed by RVP, call it what you will - it doesn't really matter. The point is that Rooney started having doubts over his future at United. He wanted some kind of reassurance - and Fergie wasn't prepared to tell him what he wanted to hear. I don't think it was necessarily all that dramatic either: Fergie didn't tell him to feck off - he just said something in line with what he later suggested in public: That Rooney needs to sort himself out, start playing so well that he becomes undroppable, something of the sort.

Whatever it was - it was between Fergie and Rooney. The latter now has a new boss - and the opportunity is there for everyone to start afresh. If Moyes is of the same opinion this doesn't have to be all that complicated.
 
If you haven't, go back and watch some highlights of this season when Rooney came back from injury. He was excellent paired with RVP, setting up chances (like Welbeck's diving header) and finishing them off to.

He clearly went into a funk around March, but he was actually still our most impactful player THIS season for a few months. I'd forgotten how good he was pre-Christmas.

He also looks genuinely delighted most of the time - lots of smiles and hugs.
 
Option 3 makes no sense. Why should giving Rooney a new contract mean we can't get in someone like Thiago. We make enough money to be able to afford Thiago's wages without having to sell off Rooney to make it possible.
 
Beachryan said:
If you haven't, go back and watch some highlights of this season when Rooney came back from injury. He was excellent paired with RVP, setting up chances (like Welbeck's diving header) and finishing them off to.

He clearly went into a funk around March, but he was actually still our most impactful player THIS season for a few months. I'd forgotten how good he was pre-Christmas.

He also looks genuinely delighted most of the time - lots of smiles and hugs.
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Couldn't agree more. He really has not had anywhere as bad a season as people have made it out to be. And post March he was below par but then our entire team played absolute garbage football after the Madrid game and yet none of them get criticised.
 
Beachryan said:
If you haven't, go back and watch some highlights of this season when Rooney came back from injury. He was excellent paired with RVP, setting up chances (like Welbeck's diving header) and finishing them off to.

He clearly went into a funk around March, but he was actually still our most impactful player THIS season for a few months. I'd forgotten how good he was pre-Christmas.

He also looks genuinely delighted most of the time - lots of smiles and hugs.
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I don't know if I would describe him as the team's most impactful player for a few months; that's arguably a bit too much, however I agree that he was better earlier on in the season than people remember due to his late season form.
 
Beachryan said:
If you haven't, go back and watch some highlights of this season when Rooney came back from injury. He was excellent paired with RVP, setting up chances (like Welbeck's diving header) and finishing them off to.

He clearly went into a funk around March, but he was actually still our most impactful player THIS season for a few months. I'd forgotten how good he was pre-Christmas.

He also looks genuinely delighted most of the time - lots of smiles and hugs.
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Beachryan said:
If you haven't, go back and watch some highlights of this season when Rooney came back from injury. He was excellent paired with RVP, setting up chances (like Welbeck's diving header) and finishing them off to.

He clearly went into a funk around March, but he was actually still our most impactful player THIS season for a few months. I'd forgotten how good he was pre-Christmas.

He also looks genuinely delighted most of the time - lots of smiles and hugs.
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That's what genuinely confuses people I think. Sometimes when his form goes there isnt always an obvious reason for it. Sometimes it's because he is coming back from a injury, granted, but other times he can be playing well and all smiles one Saturday, and the following week it's like he's really wishing he was somewhere else. I don't buy the new baby/lack of sleep excuse some mentioned, it's not like they live in a two bed semi where the noise cannt be escaped. And... At the risk of coming over all caveman.... They all rely mainly on rooneys money for the lifestyle they are now used to*. And if colleen needs extra help, which is perfectly possible, nothing wrong with that they can afford the best support staff money can buy. Rooney is an elite footballer at the biggest club on the planet, short of an injury there is no excuse for him not to be in peak condition.

*I know colleen has her own money, but lets be honest, would she have a column in a magazine, range of perfume etc if she was t mrs Rooney? So really, even her own money is dependent on him.
 
wr8_utd said:
Couldn't agree more. He really has not had anywhere as bad a season as people have made it out to be. And post March he was below par but then our entire team played absolute garbage football after the Madrid game and yet none of them get criticised.
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Of course they get criticised, admittedly not as much, but then when they play badly they don't blame everyone else and demand not to be dropped.
 
Cheesy said:
Depending on his attitude come August, either option 1 or 2. If he's continually determined to leave, then option 2. If not, then I'm happy either way. Just not the 3rd option though.
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That wouldn't leave us with much time to agree a satisfactory deal to move Rooney on , which is before the money gained.

I'd like to hope that Moyes has already got the basis onf policy decided upon.
 
it's a good thing other club's executives aren't reading this thread or we might not even get 5 million for him if he were to move judging by some of the comments on here...I know he made a dick move but it's like you're not even trying to look at it objectively...you forget every good thing he's done this season and only ramble on about all the negatives, comparing him to Torres, etc...you don't have to like him but atleast admit you're biased against him and therefore aren't objective...
how come the majority of players, managers, people outside the club, former United players, etc all rate him very highly, while so many people on here aren't capable of acknowledging that?

I mean c'mon....I hate the 2 cnuts named Suarez and Tevez, but judging them purely on their footballing ability and what they bring to the team they are magnificent players...and I can say that about those 2, who by the way I've seen play a lot of times (neither are as good as Rooney, although the former has had the better season) and both of them are playing for 2 of our biggest rivals...you on the other hand can't complement a guy who's been here for nearly a decade and won many titles and contributed as much as anybody over the 9 years here. Oh and should he stay he'd be well on course of becoming our all-time leader in goals scored...but hey, don't let all of that "cloud" your judgment, he's a shit player right?

(and before you have a go at me, nowhere did I say Rooney's been fantastic lately, or that he deserves a pay rise (not that he's looking for one), or that we can't handle his departure, I'm just being realistic)
 
OGkush said:
it's a good thing other club's executives aren't reading this thread or we might not even get 5 million for him if he were to move judging by some of the comments on here...I know he made a dick move but it's like you're not even trying to look at it objectively...you forget every good thing he's done this season and only ramble on about all the negatives, comparing him to Torres, etc...you don't have to like him but atleast admit you're biased against him and therefore aren't objective...
how come the majority of players, managers, people outside the club, former United players, etc all rate him very highly, while so many people on here aren't capable of acknowledging that?

I mean c'mon....I hate the 2 cnuts named Suarez and Tevez, but judging them purely on their footballing ability and what they bring to the team they are magnificent players...and I can say that about those 2, who by the way I've seen play a lot of times (neither are as good as Rooney, although the former has had the better season) and both of them are playing for 2 of our biggest rivals...you on the other hand can't complement a guy who's been here for nearly a decade and won many titles and contributed as much as anybody over the 9 years here. Oh and should he stay he'd be well on course of becoming our all-time leader in goals scored...but hey, don't let all of that "cloud" your judgment, he's a shit player right?

(and before you have a go at me, nowhere did I say Rooney's been fantastic lately, or that he deserves a pay rise (not that he's looking for one), or that we can't handle his departure, I'm just being realistic)
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Even In can admit he has been a huge part of our success and on his day is still a magnificent player, but it just feels like those days where he gets your blood pumping and grabs hold of a game are getting further and further apart, as someone else posted a while back, he has been quietly efficient. But I want and expect more from our supposed best player and heartbeat. Quietly efficient is what you should expect from jermain Defoe not Wayne Rooney.
 
Black Adder said:
When did Rooney blame someone else for playing badly, seems I've missed that?
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That's just how I took it when during the first transfer saga he insisted we needed better players despite being in the middle of his worst ever run of form. Just my pov.
 
Sparky_Hughes said:
Of course they get criticised, admittedly not as much, but then when they play badly they don't blame everyone else and demand not to be dropped.
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Oh, c'mon now...when did he blame everyone else? We don't even know that he demanded not to be dropped - he wasn't happy with some of Fergie's selections, we can assume that, but exactly what was said none of us know. You just hate the fecker, don't you? Which is fair enough - but it's clouding your judgment...somewhat, I think.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Oh, c'mon now...when did he blame everyone else? We don't even know that he demanded not to be dropped - he wasn't happy with some of Fergie's selections, we can assume that, but exactly what was said none of us know. You just hate the fecker, don't you? Which is fair enough - but it's clouding your judgment...somewhat, I think.
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I am biased I agree, but in this case it's my interpretation of the quotes released. I could of course be absolutely wrong, but, and I'm honestly trying to be neutral here, does Wayne strike you as a player that would react in a positive manner to being dropped, ie, busting his ass to get his place back or the kind of person to have a strop?
 
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