Wayne Rooney | 2012-14 Performances

[OGkush]

1: No, he really isn't, and 2: If that is a personal tragedy you have led a charmed life so far my friend

1) he's not the best player "by far" and this season RvP did have a better season than him, but Rooney on form is our best player, not much difference between him and RvP, and as I said RvP has outshone him this season, but I still believe Rooney's our #1 player, he's showed that plenty of times.

 

[Rudie]

Telegraph - And, oh, how quickly Rooney’s critics forget that sumptuous pass to create Van Persie’s volleyed second goal against Aston Villa.

And that's it for me, we will be all the more poorer without Rooney and I hope he stays, I think Ferguson hopes he stays and Moyes will as well as they'll know what he can offer when he's on form.

 

[Trigg]

Of course, a fit, hungry and happy Rooney is a formidable player. Up there with the best but unfortunately he hasn't been that recently. If we can get him to to those standards then it makes sense to try our upmost to keep him. If we can't then its best for the club to let him him go.

I don't think this is a about money, this time. I think its all to do with a player sulking. The last week, with Fergie retiring, the last home game, the parade all must be playing a part in his decision.

I wouldn't at all be surprised to see him stay. If he does he's got a hell of a job winning over the fans because it won't be as easy this time round - not matter what he says.

 

[Rood]

Lol at Mediawatch....

Well, You Did Ask For Some Better Players, Wayne

October 2010: Wayne Rooney hands in a transfer request, citing Manchester United's apparent inability to buy top-class players. He said: "I met with David Gill [United chief executive] last week and he did not give me any of the assurances I was seeking about the future squad...I asked for assurances about the continued ability of the club to attract the top players in the world."

May 2013: Wayne Rooney hands in another transfer request, frustrated at his inability to get past the top-class players Manchester United have bought in the intervening years. "He is a little bit frustrated at being taken off once or twice in the last few weeks," says Sir Alex Ferguson.

This is bang on - be careful what you wish for Wayne !

 

[Rood]

I said the same a couple of seasons ago to a City fan who said that if Mansour left they'd be fine because they could sell all their players for hundreds of millions. How many people would be interested in Toure for say £25m, a 29 year old (at the time) on a long term £200k+ contract? Likewise half of their other players. It's fair enough saying "who can replace Rooney for £25m", but as I said earlier that assumes we'll pay his replacement the best part of £12+m per season. Someone like Bale would probably command around £150k per week, meaning he'd "save" £5m a season in wages alone.

It's why I thought his motivations must be financial. I really can't see the only 3 clubs who compete with us in terms of prestige (Real, Barcelona, Bayern) sanctioning that kind of investment, given the talent they already have available, likewise we won't sell him to strengthen Chelsea or City. People said the Martinez and Gotze transfers was huge, but again I'm guessing they are getting half of Rooney's salary, which justifies the initial outlay.

That leaves the likes of PSG, Anzhi, (apparently) Monaco etc. If he ends up at any of those clubs it'll highlight what a farce any "new challenge" would be.

I can only think that his agent believes a) these tactics will get him a new contract as they did last time (or a 2-3 year extention); or b) they have another club lined up to sign him. Given the lack of clubs I can see that'll be interested I can only assume the answer is a).

Last time Rooney made a fuss it was obviously completely about money and getting a better contract. This time I think that is part of the issue (it is no coincidene that all this blows up with 2yrs left on his contract as that is the vital negotiation time nowadays), but also he probably will be genuinely unhappy at being left out of the Real game and getting subbed off in games etc.

Regarding who would take him, I dont really know how he is rated around Europe nowadays - do they still think of him a top teir player who is only just below the likes of Messi and Ronaldo (as he was a couple of years back)? In which case Real or Barca could still take an interest, cant see Bayern paying the kind of salary he wants though.
We have seen recently with Sneijder how quickly a players' stock can fall from being one of the most coveted in the world to playing in a 2nd rate league - not saying that will happen to Rooney but will be interesting to see how this all pans out.

 

[OGkush]

Of course, a fit, hungry and happy Rooney is a formidable player. Up there with the best but unfortunately he hasn't been that recently. If we can get him to to those standards then it makes sense to try our upmost to keep him. If we can't then its best for the club to let him him go.

I don't think this is a about money, this time. I think its all to do with a player sulking. The last week, with Fergie retiring, the last home game, the parade all must be playing a part in his decision.

I wouldn't at all be surprised to see him stay. If he does he's got a hell of a job winning over the fans because it won't be as easy this time round - not matter what he says.

yup, doesn't have to do with the money, and honestly I think the 1st "bitch move" he made had more to do about the club losing Ronaldo and not getting in anyone close to his standards than it had to do with Rooney pocketing more money (I remember Fergie saying he was surprised when Rooney turned down the contract, as he had given him the best possible contract in the country), although it worked out great for him from that point of view.

this time around I think he's sulking over not being picked so often, he's obviously got enough money and had enough success over the years that those 2 reasons can be crossed off.

Yes, he's somewhat of an idiot, and although I don't agree with him, I can see where he's coming from this time around.
He's clearly been played less frequently this season, not to mention most of the time he's been shifted out left or played in the middle, and even when he played as a #10 he was sitting deeper than usual, and the Real game must've really hit him hard. Couple that with Van Persie playing almost every game, and getting consistent game-time up front even when he was in quite a long scoring drought surely played its part in this as well.

Again, I don't agree with his stance, he should just suck it up and improve his game to make himself "undroppable" again, however I do understand the reasoning behind it. As fantastic as RvP has been and as happy as I am that we signed him, he's spent the season on a noticably longer leesh than anyone in the club, particularly Rooney since one way or another the 2 are going to be compared.
And both from the manager and the fans' point of view. While Fergie was constantly praising RvP, he hardly ever spoke of Rooney in such high esteem this season, and it was very noticable on the boards as well. RvP had a bad game and people were like "meh, not that bad, will do better next time", but when Rooney had a bad game you wouldn't hear the end of it. I know that the "new toy" effect is bound to take its toll, however I still think that regardless of that we (as a group) in general should judge players on more even ground than we have done recently.

 

[OGkush]

Last time Rooney made a fuss it was obviously completely about money and getting a better contract. This time I think that is part of the issue (it is no coincidene that all this blows up with 2yrs left on his contract as that is the vital negotiation time nowadays), but also he probably will be genuinely unhappy at being left out of the Real game and getting subbed off in games etc.

Regarding who would take him, I dont really know how he is rated around Europe nowadays - do they still think of him a top teir player who is only just below the likes of Messi and Ronaldo (as he was a couple of years back)? In which case Real or Barca could still take an interest, cant see Bayern paying the kind of salary he wants though.
We have seen recently with Sneijder how quickly a players' stock can fall from being one of the most coveted in the world to playing in a 2nd rate league - not saying that will happen to Rooney but will be interesting to see how this all pans out.

Believe it or not Rooney's held in higher regard across the globe than he is on Redcafe.

 

[Rozay]

Last time Rooney made a fuss it was obviously completely about money and getting a better contract. This time I think that is part of the issue (it is no coincidene that all this blows up with 2yrs left on his contract as that is the vital negotiation time nowadays), but also he probably will be genuinely unhappy at being left out of the Real game and getting subbed off in games etc.

Regarding who would take him, I dont really know how he is rated around Europe nowadays - do they still think of him a top teir player who is only just below the likes of Messi and Ronaldo (as he was a couple of years back)? In which case Real or Barca could still take an interest, cant see Bayern paying the kind of salary he wants though.
We have seen recently with Sneijder how quickly a players' stock can fall from being one of the most coveted in the world to playing in a 2nd rate league - not saying that will happen to Rooney but will be interesting to see how this all pans out.

This is something I have never agreed with personally. I think the points he made about us not being able to compete for the best players appeared valid, and were echoed by most United fans in the midst of our 'value' period. Rooney was far and away our only real top class player at the time, we had ust sold Ronaldo and replaced him with Valencia, and got Michael Owen in for free as our new number 7. Our rivals appeared to be strengthening at a far different pace than us, and it wasn't an outrageous conception that we would be unable to keep up.

 

[rcoobc]

Rooney's Everton sell-on clause... Does that still apply?

Usually they get removed when the player renegotiates a contract (which is frankly ridiculous in my opinion).

 

[Rozay]

Rooney's Everton sell-on clause... Does that still apply?

Usually they get removed when the player renegotiates a contract (which is frankly ridiculous in my opinion).

Not that ridiculoous tbh. It's a new contract altogether, I don't see why any club will continually keep putting such a clause in there. In the first one, yea, as a condition of sale perhaps. After that, it's a new contract with new terms from scratch.

 

[Sparky_Hughes]

Rooney's Everton sell-on clause... Does that still apply?

Usually they get removed when the player renegotiates a contract (which is frankly ridiculous in my opinion).

How does that work? I would have thought any sell on fees would be in the contract between the selling and buying club, regardless of players contracts?

 

[hp88]

This is something I have never agreed with personally. I think the points he made about us not being able to compete for the best players appeared valid, and were echoed by most United fans in the midst of our 'value' period. Rooney was far and away our only real top class player at the time, we had ust sold Ronaldo and replaced him with Valencia, and got Michael Owen in for free as our new number 7. Our rivals appeared to be strengthening at a far different pace than us, and it wasn't an outrageous conception that we would be unable to keep up.

I don't see anything wrong with questioning the lack of signings but Rooney getting a pay rise was something I didn't agree with at the time, I still think Rooney and his agent realised that United were a bit vulnerable at the time so there was an opportunity to make a bit of money out of the club.

 

[devilish]

Rumours say that Moyes had employed Ramsay Bolton to convince Wayne Rooney to stay loyal to the United cause.

 

[devilish]

Believe it or not Rooney's held in higher regard across the globe than he is on Redcafe.

No

 

[Sparky_Hughes]

Rumours say that Moyes had employed Ramsay Bolton to convince Wayne Rooney to stay loyal to the United cause.

Who?

 

[devilish]

Who?

He's the half brother of Joey Barton and a distant relative to Vinnie Jones

Google is your friend.

 

[Sparky_Hughes]

He's the half brother of Joey Barton and a distant relative to Vinnie Jones

Google is your friend.

Why keep a dog and bark yourself

 

[Sassy Colin]

Say's here he's a mythical character...

 

[reelworld]

yup, doesn't have to do with the money, and honestly I think the 1st "bitch move" he made had more to do about the club losing Ronaldo and not getting in anyone close to his standards than it had to do with Rooney pocketing more money (I remember Fergie saying he was surprised when Rooney turned down the contract, as he had given him the best possible contract in the country), although it worked out great for him from that point of view.

this time around I think he's sulking over not being picked so often, he's obviously got enough money and had enough success over the years that those 2 reasons can be crossed off.

Yes, he's somewhat of an idiot, and although I don't agree with him, I can see where he's coming from this time around.
He's clearly been played less frequently this season, not to mention most of the time he's been shifted out left or played in the middle, and even when he played as a #10 he was sitting deeper than usual, and the Real game must've really hit him hard. Couple that with Van Persie playing almost every game, and getting consistent game-time up front even when he was in quite a long scoring drought surely played its part in this as well.

Again, I don't agree with his stance, he should just suck it up and improve his game to make himself "undroppable" again, however I do understand the reasoning behind it. As fantastic as RvP has been and as happy as I am that we signed him, he's spent the season on a noticably longer leesh than anyone in the club, particularly Rooney since one way or another the 2 are going to be compared.
And both from the manager and the fans' point of view. While Fergie was constantly praising RvP, he hardly ever spoke of Rooney in such high esteem this season, and it was very noticable on the boards as well. RvP had a bad game and people were like "meh, not that bad, will do better next time", but when Rooney had a bad game you wouldn't hear the end of it. I know that the "new toy" effect is bound to take its toll, however I still think that regardless of that we (as a group) in general should judge players on more even ground than we have done recently.

Non sense.

He missed 12 league games through injury, but still played 36 overall. Would be more if we haven't went out early in Europe.
Played most of his game as a striker or a number 10, only a few in other position.

This whole 'Fergie shafted him', 'not playing to his true position' is bollocks

 

[Plechazunga]

Rooney was far and away our only real top class player at the time

Evra, Vidic, Ferdinand, Nani - even if you don't count Scholes and VDS that's still four players among the very best in the world in their position at the time.

But yeah, agree with your larger point. Rooney's concerns were most of our concerns at the time.

 

[Rood]

Believe it or not Rooney's held in higher regard across the globe than he is on Redcafe.

I can believe it, he is a top player for sure but has not recently lived upto the high expectations of our fans - the question is more about whether other clubs would be willing to match the huge salary we gave him in his last contract or if he would take a pay cut to move.

This is something I have never agreed with personally. I think the points he made about us not being able to compete for the best players appeared valid, and were echoed by most United fans in the midst of our 'value' period. Rooney was far and away our only real top class player at the time, we had ust sold Ronaldo and replaced him with Valencia, and got Michael Owen in for free as our new number 7. Our rivals appeared to be strengthening at a far different pace than us, and it wasn't an outrageous conception that we would be unable to keep up.

Well I never agreed with all that 'value' negativity and have never had an issue with the amount the club invested into the squad under Fergie.
For me Rooney's team were playing a media game and using some of the political issues of the time to pressure the club into getting a better contract.
I also dont agree that he was our only top class player at the time but yes he was our most high profile player.
Last time the club made a mistake in allowing him to get to less than 2 years on his contact and so were left in a weak position. The same must not be allowed to happen again, he must either sign a new contract this summer (on the club's terms) or leave.

 

[Rozay]

yup, doesn't have to do with the money, and honestly I think the 1st "bitch move" he made had more to do about the club losing Ronaldo and not getting in anyone close to his standards than it had to do with Rooney pocketing more money (I remember Fergie saying he was surprised when Rooney turned down the contract, as he had given him the best possible contract in the country), although it worked out great for him from that point of view.

this time around I think he's sulking over not being picked so often, he's obviously got enough money and had enough success over the years that those 2 reasons can be crossed off.

Yes, he's somewhat of an idiot, and although I don't agree with him, I can see where he's coming from this time around.
He's clearly been played less frequently this season, not to mention most of the time he's been shifted out left or played in the middle, and even when he played as a #10 he was sitting deeper than usual, and the Real game must've really hit him hard. Couple that with Van Persie playing almost every game, and getting consistent game-time up front even when he was in quite a long scoring drought surely played its part in this as well.

Again, I don't agree with his stance, he should just suck it up and improve his game to make himself "undroppable" again, however I do understand the reasoning behind it. As fantastic as RvP has been and as happy as I am that we signed him, he's spent the season on a noticably longer leesh than anyone in the club, particularly Rooney since one way or another the 2 are going to be compared.
And both from the manager and the fans' point of view. While Fergie was constantly praising RvP, he hardly ever spoke of Rooney in such high esteem this season, and it was very noticable on the boards as well. RvP had a bad game and people were like "meh, not that bad, will do better next time", but when Rooney had a bad game you wouldn't hear the end of it. I know that the "new toy" effect is bound to take its toll, however I still think that regardless of that we (as a group) in general should judge players on more even ground than we have done recently.

I'd probably put a fair bit of money to bet that Rooney has not started on the wing for us more than 15 times in his entire career, and in the centre of midfield more than 5 or 6 times.

 

[Plechazunga]

I'd probably put a fair bit of money to bet that Rooney has not started on the wing for us more than 15 times in his entire career, and in the centre of midfield more than 5 or 6 times.

Depends what you mean by 'on the wing'. In the Ronaldo-Rooney-Tevez days he often started on the left, but was more of an inside forward in a 4-3-3 than a winger.

He's definitely started somewhere on the flank more than fifteen times.

 

[Rozay]

Evra, Vidic, Ferdinand, Nani - even if you don't count Scholes and VDS that's still four players among the very best in the world in their position at the time.

But yeah, agree with your larger point. Rooney's concerns were most of our concerns at the time.

In that case, why do you think there was such outrage when he questioned the direction we were heading in, if the same topic was being debated on the caf daily?

And as for the first part, admittedly we had some top defenders, but that is rarely the most glamorous, sadly. Players don't find clubs attractive because they have a top left-back. The midfield and attack was short of top names in their prime. You mentioned Nani, but he is not of the bracket we mean, as much as I love him. Fact is, he's never really shaken Valencia off and established himself as first choice, and Valencia isn't that great himself.

 

[Rozay]

Depends what you mean by 'on the wing'. In the Ronaldo-Rooney-Tevez days he often started on the left, but was more of an inside forward in a 4-3-3 than a winger.

He's definitely started somewhere on the flank more than fifteen times.

Not by my memory. Most United fans seem to refuse to admit that Ronaldo was actually played on the wing. There was even the whole fuss about him beating Best's record from the wing. He certainly did not spend most of his time operating in a Kagawa sort of position.

The times Rooney did start out wide, I distinctly remember it being noted by the commentary like 'Fergie has gone for Ronaldo through the middle today'. At his best, he was generally coming in from the left-side (Ronaldo). Rooney perhaps moved over there to cover him when he came inside, but was never a wide man.

In our double season, we often had Hargreaves on the right and Ronaldo on the left.

 

[SteveJ]

We can't really tell if Rooney was sincere, regarding his comments at the time. On the one hand many of us shared his concerns about 'ambition', so making his statements valid (in a manner of speaking); on the other, we have John O'Shea writing that Wayne admitted that it was all about a new & better contract. Admittedly, that confession could've been a way to placate the team-mates he'd apparently insulted. Who knows?

Still, I can't help thinking:

*Is it just a coincidence that Wayne acts up, once again, when contract negotiations are on the horizon?

*Is it just a coincidence that any new salary is likely to be, at best, the same level of pay he already receives, or even less?

*Is it just a coincidence that Rooney hasn't handed-in a proper transfer request, an action which would adversely affect any loyalty payments he's due & would perhaps finally end his positive relationship with the fans?

I don't think any of this is coincidental, given Wayne's history & the identity of his agent. And to think that we laugh at Adebayor for playing out of his skin each time he has contract negotiations coming up...maybe Wayne should follow Ade's example instead.

 

[Rowem]

Believe it or not Rooney's held in higher regard across the globe than he is on Redcafe.

Agreed 100%

Club fans tend to rate players who they like or who they think are really playing for the club higher than other football fans.

Rooney a few years ago was loved on here. He was in great form, always worked his socks off and showed plenty of passion. He was definitely rated higher on here than the rest of the footballing world at the time. More recently, the opinion on here has shifted hugely. Some sluggish performances and the transfer request has done that, plus the fact that Rooney has become more efficient but less dynamic. Fans don't want efficiency from their players, they want dynamic! However opposition fans fear efficiency more than dynamism.

Additionally, RedCafe tends to be largely influenced by form. The popular opinion shifts massively based on a few games.

 

[reelworld]

Depends what you mean by 'on the wing'. In the Ronaldo-Rooney-Tevez days he often started on the left, but was more of an inside forward in a 4-3-3 than a winger.

He's definitely started somewhere on the flank more than fifteen times.

Our fluid attacks is one of the best aspect of our game. He may started on the left, or wherever, but most of the time, Rooney played his game centrally, on the final third of the pitch.

Greater players than Rooney has adjusted to the team needs, and still played great. Zidane when he moved to Madrid was an example, it's pretty similar with Rooney now. Played exclusively behind the strikers at Juve, but had to moved to the left on the 3 in 4-2-3-1 to accomodate both Raul and Figo. It doesn't matter, he still played great.

 

[Rood]

... on the other, we have John O'Shea writing that Wayne admitted that it was all about a new & better contract...

where/when did O'Shea write that? First I have heard of it

 

[Rowem]

In the days of Ronaldo and Tevez, we still played 442 far, far, FAR more often than we played 433.

99.99%* of the time Rooney was central. Giggs or Nani were wide left.

* a slight exaggeration

 

[The Neviller]

I don't see anything wrong with questioning the lack of signings but Rooney getting a pay rise was something I didn't agree with at the time, I still think Rooney and his agent realised that United were a bit vulnerable at the time so there was an opportunity to make a bit of money out of the club.

Was it not reported that he ended up signing the original contrat that he was offered?

 

[SteveJ]

where/when did O'Shea write that? First I have heard of it

From the book Champ19ns:

O'Shea: "It transpired it was just an interesting technique of getting a new deal," O'Shea said. "I think Wayne, if he could turn back the clock, might do things a bit differently, but both parties were happy in the end.

"He came [into the Carrington dressing room after signing his new deal] and apologised to everyone. He said he'd done what he had to do, basically, and he was sorry if he had offended anybody. Obviously there were a few comments that will stay in the dressing room. They were quite smart and funny, but all friendly."

 

[Zen86]

1) he's not the best player "by far" and this season RvP did have a better season than him, but Rooney on form is our best player, not much difference between him and RvP, and as I said RvP has outshone him this season, but I still believe Rooney's our #1 player, he's showed that plenty of times.

If I had a penny for everytime that phrase was used in this thread.

 

[Rowem]

Not by my memory. Most United fans seem to refuse to admit that Ronaldo was actually played on the wing. There was even the whole fuss about him beating Best's record from the wing. He certainly did not spend most of his time operating in a Kagawa sort of position.

The times Rooney did start out wide, I distinctly remember it being noted by the commentary like 'Fergie has gone for Ronaldo through the middle today'. At his best, he was generally coming in from the left-side (Ronaldo). Rooney perhaps moved over there to cover him when he came inside, but was never a wide man.

In our double season, we often had Hargreaves on the right and Ronaldo on the left.

Agree with this. Why people are re-writing history I don't know. I think it's part of the growing tendency that people have on here to blame everything that goes wrong on SAF. Rooney poor form? Blame SAF!! He must have played him on the wing! Even though he didn't..

Although the last part, it was most often Ronaldo on the right and Giggs/Nani on the left.

 

[Rozay]

In the days of Ronaldo and Tevez, we still played 442 far, far, FAR more often than we played 433.

99.99%* of the time Rooney was central. Giggs or Nani were wide left.

* a slight exaggeration

Is correct. At times, Hargreaves was on the right too, with Ronaldo on the left.

 

[Plechazunga]

In that case, why do you think there was such outrage when he questioned the direction we were heading in, if the same topic was being debated on the caf daily?

Because the Caf isn't rational.

You mentioned Nani, but he is not of the bracket we mean, as much as I love him.

He was pretty fecking good in 09-10 as I recall.

Not by my memory. Most United fans seem to refuse to admit that Ronaldo was actually played on the wing. There was even the whole fuss about him beating Best's record from the wing. He certainly did not spend most of his time operating in a Kagawa sort of position.

The times Rooney did start out wide, I distinctly remember it being noted by the commentary like 'Fergie has gone for Ronaldo through the middle today'. At his best, he was generally coming in from the left-side (Ronaldo). Rooney perhaps moved over there to cover him when he came inside, but was never a wide man.

In our double season, we often had Hargreaves on the right and Ronaldo on the left.

Well we'll have to agree to disagree. I reckon I've seen Rooney on the left dozens of times, and a few on the right. He played there for most of one season, though I can't remember which one, but I watched most of our games that season round my Sheffield United mate's house, and he spent the whole time banging on about what a waste it was shunting him out there...

As for Ronaldo, he started out as a pure winger but by the end was absolutely an inside forward.

 

[buckooo1978]

Rumours say that Moyes had employed Ramsay Bolton to convince Wayne Rooney to stay loyal to the United cause.

ouch

I expect a new 5 year deal where Rooney pays the club 50k a week

 

[finneh]

Regarding who would take him, I dont really know how he is rated around Europe nowadays - do they still think of him a top teir player who is only just below the likes of Messi and Ronaldo (as he was a couple of years back)? In which case Real or Barca could still take an interest, cant see Bayern paying the kind of salary he wants though.
We have seen recently with Sneijder how quickly a players' stock can fall from being one of the most coveted in the world to playing in a 2nd rate league - not saying that will happen to Rooney but will be interesting to see how this all pans out.

Believe it or not Rooney's held in higher regard across the globe than he is on Redcafe.

The comparison with Sneijder is quite interesting (particularly given that both are on very high wages, of a similar age and were both World Class). I don't know how valuable the Ballon D'or is in this regard, given that club captains/journalists/managers from around the world vote on it, but:

Rooney

2010 - Not nominated
2011 - 5th
2012 - 15th

Sneijder

2010 - 4th
2011 - 12th
2012 - Not nominated

Not a huge difference at all. Obviously Rooney won't end up at Galatasaray but it just shows how very high wages seem to hamstring the moves of even highly regarded players. Rooney won't be nominated for this years Ballon D'or and so it will be an almost identical situation to Sneijder last Summer, where he's linked with lots of clubs, but ultimately his wages will inevitably put off many of them.

 

[SteveJ]

ouch

I expect a new 5 year deal where Rooney pays the club 50k a week

 

[devilish]

ouch

I expect a new 5 year deal where Rooney pays the club 50k a week

Ramsay had promised that Rooney's days to the whore/granny house are over.

New Reek's loyalty to the new boss will eclipse that of the Neville brothers towards SAF.