Absolutely 100% agree
Wayne Rooney | 2012-14 Performances
- Thread starter gooDevil
- Start date
- Status
Absolutely 100% agree
I agree 110%.
Not that bothered. I won't be buying the book either way.
The unofficial biog is worth a read. Rooney's Gold. Almost as much about Paul Stretford as it is about Roon. Very interesting.
I've ignored all the other strawman nonsense because you're transparently trying to avoid dealing with basic facts by burying them under piles of conjecture and condescension. This isn't about who's the better footballer out of Ruud and Rooney, which should be an easy question for anyone, or about 'fanbois', because we're not children, but about who is the better goalscorer. The difference you posted, and I'm unsure of your source, equates to about two and a half goals over a season, which can hardly be considered substantial. So I stand by my statement that the goals to game ratios are comparable, but there's mitigating circumstances which clearly make the case that Rooney is a better goalscorer overall.
You can't compare their entire careers at United, because by the time Rooney was the age Ruud was when he joined, Rooney had been a United player for seven years. So, instead of comparing their careers, you have to compare them at their goalscoring best, which conveniently came at around about the same age, which was 11/12 for Rooney (34 in 41) and 02/03 for Ruud (44 in 50). The difference is a couple of goals, so you might say fair enough, he's a marginally best goalscorer. Except for one small matter, one little fact which you can't ignore. Ruud Van Nistelrooy played exclusively as a centre forward, his only job was to score goals. Wayne Rooney, on the other hand, played more times in midfield than he did as a centre forward last year. If Ruud at his very best couldn't even significantly outscore a Rooney whose performances were often middling at best, and who had many other responsibilities on the pitch, then how can you claim he's a better goalscorer?
You also can't pull out the excuse that we were a poorer side back then, because the 02/03 side was excellent, and almost certainly the match of last year's injury-ridden squad. All of this is just your standard misplaced nostalgia, wherein players and teams of the past are always better because memory is unreliable. The stats suggest that Rooney is now as good as scoring goals as Ruud was at the same age, despite Rooney having far less of a focus on goalscoring. And with that settled, to return to the original argument, if Rooney is as good or even better at the one thing Ruud excelled at, how can anyone possibly say Ruud was a better player overall?
Rooney a better goal scorer than RVN? What?
To be fair goals scored alone doesnt proove anything, what would really be useful is goals scored against shots on and off target.
Purely on feeling, if a shot falls to either Ruud or Rooney in the box and I had to stick my house on one scoring, it would be Ruud everytime.
Purely on feeling, if a shot falls to either Ruud or Rooney in the box and I had to stick my house on one scoring, it would be Ruud everytime.
Quite apart from all that stuff I've blathered on about up there, there's this simple fact. The most league goals Ruud Van Nistelrooy ever scored in a season for United was 25, since he became our penalty taker Rooney has beaten that total twice.
I think if Rooney hadn't spent the first half of 2010/11 alternating between fecking about, being injured, and being a useless moody dickhead, nobody would doubt his quality as a world class goalscorer. As it is, instead of three astonishingly productive seasons he's had two and a half. Two full seasons where he scored 34 each time, and one half season where he scored 16.
Erm, the basic fact is that Ruud scored more goals per game in his prime even if you discount all the other factors I talk about. So you're factually wrong as well.
Rooney's a better goalscorer than Ruud 
Oh the fanboys in this thread do make me larf.
Oh the fanboys in this thread do make me larf.
Rooney is probably a better all round forward, but Ruud was simply a goal scoring machine in a lesser side.I may also be biased as he is personally one of my favorite players, but Ruud was simply a better centerforward/goalscorer than Rooney.
Rooney is a better overall player though.
Rooney is a better overall player though.
Fair point. Maybe it isnt as absurd as it seems on first glance. But I do think RVN is the better finisher / goalscorer. And I think this is the pertinent point:
The stats and all that make a case as well, but the bottom line is RVN's goals were that team's lifeline. He was a machine. If he had such a strong supporting cast I am sure he would have scored even more.
Totally different players.
Yes, very different. With one of them being a better goal scorer. And the other being better at pretty much every other aspect of the game.
van nistelrooy used to be my favorite striker and he was a goal scoring machine. the first 2 seasons with us he got 80 goals in 100 games and he got the likes of beckham, scholes, giggs, solskjaer etc assisting him.
what is more remarkable is that he still managed to get another 70 goals in the next 119 games playing alongside a still very young and immature ronaldo, a roy keane in the latter stages of his great career, an even an alan smith, a david bellion, a djemba twins and a kleberson part of the team. during this 2-3 year period was arguably fergei's weakest squad since the premier league begun in 1992. no doubt he would has score more goals if he was given a better service.
rooney is now a 30 goal a season striker and the reason why it probably look a bit ordinary these days is because of messi's and ronaldo's goalscoring feat in la liga. 182 goals in 368 games, not quite as good as rvn's record, but still an good ratio for a player who begins his united career as an 18 year old. you don't expect a player age 18 to 22 or 23 to get 30 goals a season straight away. and rooney certainly has improve his goalscoring record as he gets older.
i would say rvn is the better player inside the penalty box. his movement and reaction, not to mention his finishing, was top draw.
rooney is the better player outside the penalty box. he is more all action than rvn was.
2 great players imo.
what is more remarkable is that he still managed to get another 70 goals in the next 119 games playing alongside a still very young and immature ronaldo, a roy keane in the latter stages of his great career, an even an alan smith, a david bellion, a djemba twins and a kleberson part of the team. during this 2-3 year period was arguably fergei's weakest squad since the premier league begun in 1992. no doubt he would has score more goals if he was given a better service.
rooney is now a 30 goal a season striker and the reason why it probably look a bit ordinary these days is because of messi's and ronaldo's goalscoring feat in la liga. 182 goals in 368 games, not quite as good as rvn's record, but still an good ratio for a player who begins his united career as an 18 year old. you don't expect a player age 18 to 22 or 23 to get 30 goals a season straight away. and rooney certainly has improve his goalscoring record as he gets older.
i would say rvn is the better player inside the penalty box. his movement and reaction, not to mention his finishing, was top draw.
rooney is the better player outside the penalty box. he is more all action than rvn was.
2 great players imo.
By an incredibly small, arguably meaningless margin. They have near enough goalscoring records at Rooney's current age, and Rooney's a number ten.
Van Nistelrooy scored 80 goals in 84 starts in 01/02 and 02/03. Rooney scored 68 in 83 starts in 09/10 and 11/12. Ruud was a far better finisher and clearly a better goalscorer.
Ruud scored 80 goals in 94 starts in those two seasons.
You should probably look up the meaning of meaningless in the dictionary. From this post and everything I've said it doesn't seem so pointless.
This number 10 business is a joke. He's given a free role in the United side to roam about. A bit like Ronaldo is at Real. It doesn't hamper his goal tally. In 09/10 and 11/12 he had an almost identical record. So what are you even on about? Are you suggesting last year had Rooney played right up top, he would have gotten 45 goals despite getting the same amount playing there 2 years back (when he was actually playing better football)?
If Rooney played as a central striker he'd score more goals, yes, it's not exactly a bold claim. He's become a better goalscorer over the last two years, hence being able to match the figure he managed two years ago when he actually did play as a striker. Also, as I pointed out, the post you cite is inaccurate.
Errr, yeah? Are you suggesting it's not likely he'd get more goals if he wasn't given the job of trying to create and occasionally drop deeper to assist the midfield?
Rooney played as a central striker 2 years back and scored the same amount of goals. He was much better that season than last season. He rightfully won the awards he deserved as a result as opposed to last year when he even lost our own internal award given by fellow players to... Antonio Valencia.
So your assertion remains that had Rooney played as the central striker last season he wouldn't have scored more goals than he did playing, by and large, as a number ten?
I sort of rate both of them!
If you remember Rooney's first seasons at the club he was nowhere near a great finisher. It's a testament to him he managed to improve that part of his game immensely. 2009/10 was a big turning point in his career as he became a different sort of a striker and never looked back since. I miss the old-young Rooney and his bursting runs and drives but he's more efficient now.
He's more similar to Van Persie in that aspect than one would think. RVP himself used to be a very much erratic finisher, till he was pushed further up the pitch and was told to improve that area. The difference is, Van Persie's game outside his main duties hasn't suffered as much, or at least his consistency at general play.
And Van Nistelrooy...well he shits on them both as far as pure finishing goes. Rooney and Van Persie's best scoring seasons would have been a customary one for Ruud in his hey days.
He's more similar to Van Persie in that aspect than one would think. RVP himself used to be a very much erratic finisher, till he was pushed further up the pitch and was told to improve that area. The difference is, Van Persie's game outside his main duties hasn't suffered as much, or at least his consistency at general play.
And Van Nistelrooy...well he shits on them both as far as pure finishing goes. Rooney and Van Persie's best scoring seasons would have been a customary one for Ruud in his hey days.
Rooney's a better goalscorer than Ruud
Oh the fanboys in this thread do make me larf.
Not much in the difference if you compare RVN record to Rooneys last 150 games.
RVN 95 goals in 150 apps.
Rooney 88 goals in last 150 appearances.
Remember RVN came to united at 25. I agree than Rooney isnt as good a goalscorer but the debate isnt laughable at all.
Van Nistelrooy was a godly finisher, like no-one I've ever seen before or since, but I'd say van Persie and Rooney get a lot more chances than he ever did. Rooney's goal/game ratio over the last 3 seasons has been almost as good as van Nistelrooy's over the course of his career at United.
We'll probably never have as good a goal scorer at United as Ruud was. Easily the most clinical striker I've seen. Rooney is a more complete striker but as a pure finisher, it's not even a competition.
It annoys me when people say Ruud was "only" a goalscorer. Firstly, that's a pretty important thing to specialise in and secondly he had more to his game than just being able to stick the ball in the net.
Granted his approach play wasn't on Rooney's level but it was still more than decent.
Granted his approach play wasn't on Rooney's level but it was still more than decent.
Tommy Taylor for a lot of the older crowd, was a better goalscorer.
Rooney and RVP are playing in better United sides. Ruud was very unfortunate in his timing. He scored all those goals during Fergie's most average squad.
RVN was amazing when we had him.
I'm delighted we have Rooney on our books right now.
Period.
I'm delighted we have Rooney on our books right now.
Period.
I think Chabon makes a fair point in that if you compare their best seasons - 11/12 for Rooney (34 in 41) and 02/03 for Ruud (44 in 50) - then there's not much difference in overall team quality. In Ruud's first game this was the team:
Barthez
Neville
Stam
Silvestre
Irwin
Beckham
Keane
Butt
Scholes
Giggs
Van Nistelrooy
Then there's the likes of Yorke, Cole, Solskjaer, Veron, Johnsen and Brown waiting in the wings, with Forlan, Rio, O'Shea and others in 02/03.
I don't think anyone can disagree that RVN was a better finisher but Rooney has become an excellent goalscorer and he's got plenty of time for further improvement. It's not a laughable suggestion at all.
Problem is that Scholes and Giggs both went through a dip from at different times during Ruud's time with us. Both had a second wind 2006 onwards ofcourse. Once Beckham left, it was mainly Ole as an attacking player who was in his prime but he too got injured soon after that. Someone like Ronaldo was too young and unpredictable then while bloopers like Kleberson, Miller, Djemba did not help the cause either.
Ruud was a better finisher than Rooney, but was he better than RVP?
In a choice between them, I'd probably put my money on Ruud putting away a poacher's goal, but maybe would favour RVP when it came to a half-chance.
How do their stats compare? My impression with RVP when he was at Arsenal was that he scored every fecking time he started, which thankfully wasn't very often.
In a choice between them, I'd probably put my money on Ruud putting away a poacher's goal, but maybe would favour RVP when it came to a half-chance.
How do their stats compare? My impression with RVP when he was at Arsenal was that he scored every fecking time he started, which thankfully wasn't very often.
Fat Rooney, 'is gash.
Not always a negative on your goal tally to be playing in an inferior side, United in 2009/10 were nowhere near as good as United in 2008/09, but Rooney scored about twice as many goals because he was the focus of the team, the same with last season. Berbatov scored more goals in each of his two seasons at Tottenham than he ever did in superior United sides, Darren Bent is another one, he was shit hot at Sunderland, but at Spurs he was dreadful.
I remember arguing with an Arsenal fan years and years ago about whether Van Persie was better than Rooney. It seemed laughable at the time, but I'm starting to think that if he hadn't been injured throughout most of his mid-20s he'd be one of the best players to ever play in this country. Overall he was about 1 in 2 for Arsenal, but he scored about 40% of those in the last 18 months. We can only imagine how good he would have been had he avoided all those niggling injuries over the years. As for comparisons with Ruud's goalscoring, he's not quite up there, even now. Van Persie just has this aura about him though, he reminds me of our Ronaldo at his best.
I can't believe we're going to get to play Rooney and Van Persie together, it honestly feels a bit like cheating...or being a Real Madrid fan.
- Status