Yeah it would be a step back of course. That I agree with. He's a quality player.
Wayne Rooney | 2012-14 Performances
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Yeah it would be a step back of course. That I agree with. He's a quality player.
Did you read the Sun article that started it all?
Certainly we all know from history there is almost no such thing as a player at United who can not be sold, but this recent set of rumours was started by a complete nonsense story in The Sun.
Plenty of credit by saying we'd be fine without him, naming several players they think are better than him (forget Messi & Ronaldo, some are just laughable), calling him a cnut and overrated among other things?
Yeah that's really giving credit where credit is due.
It's incredibile really how other teams' fans rate our own players higher than us sometimes.
I never said he's the best player in the world, or the best we've ever had at United, however he is among the elite, the class below Messi/Ronaldo, a true world-class player, one that would get into any team and will be a United legend, if he keeps going the way he's going he might even become our greatest ever goalscorer, something which can't be overlooked.
1. It would be a blow to lose any of your best players. But given the calibre of players people are saying we've done okay without, it's actually a compliment to Rooney to say that. Or do you think it's an insult to Rooney to be compared to great like Ruud and Keane?
2. I said Ruud and Ronaldo were better. How is that laughable? Disagreeif you will. But Ruud was incredible. I'm hardly claiming Hernandez as better. Who are the laughable nominations and why are they so?
3. I didnt call him a cnut.
So where's the absurd bit? The reason people like me get puzzled is because if you don't rate Rooney as this unbelievably good footballer and if you think he's among a long line of top footballers one gets to see at United and so other top clubs, then some people go nuts. Fine, you think he's thaaaat great. But is he so good that everyone absolutely must feel the same?
1) I never said it's an insult to be compared to Ruud and Keane, I just said there's no denying they weren't as good as he is (especialy not when they left).
2) Why do you keep mentioning Ronaldo, we've been over this more than a couple of times, everyone acknowledges the fact Ronaldo > Rooney.
As for Ruud, he was immense, and will forever be one of my favorite players to ever play the game, however even though his finishing and goal tally was sublime I still feel Rooney is the better player of the two.
The "laughable" nominations are such as Suarez, Tevez, Torres, and I even heard Gomez (yes, I did actually hear/see all of the above mentioned labeled by someone as the better player in comparison with Rooney).
3) I never said you in particular said he was a cnut, but you can't deny a lot of people call him that (not particularly outside the United "fanzone").
Does it occur to you that people rarely agree with eachother, how many people are still fighting over who's the best player, or who's the best team, you've got divided opinions on every player.
Some on here even think Nani's nothing special and/or prefer Young on the wing. Some say Torres is world-class others say he's crap.
You can't name one thing that we all agree with, so why bother using that logic, that way every opinion becomes subsequently invalid since "not everyone shares it".
Manchester United manager Sir Alex Ferguson sees positive side to Wayne Rooney's injury
Sir Alex Ferguson has described the thigh injury which could sideline Wayne Rooney until October as a “blessing” and said that the Manchester United forward must use the lay-off to improve his fitness.
By Mark Ogden10:30PM BST 31 Aug 2012
Sir Alex Ferguson has described the thigh injury which could sideline Wayne Rooney until October as a “blessing” and said that the Manchester United forward must use the lay-off to improve his fitness.
By Mark Ogden10:30PM BST 31 Aug 2012
They're pretty strong words in comparison to what we've heard before. I've never heard him say anything more damning than "Wayne takes a few games to get into things"
He played more pre season than Van Persie as well so that's no excuse
He played more pre season than Van Persie as well so that's no excuse
OK. I know it's a common habit to underestimate players who have left the club, but Beckham and Ruud and Keane were better players than Rooney. All of these players were just as influential as Rooney is now, and were still sold. Yes, the team won't be better, but if the manager feels a player is not part of his plans any more for whatever reason, he can get sold.
I don't even want Rooney to be sold, he's a great player we should try to keep. But I think you are overstating Rooney's importance to the team right now. Rooney's problem isn't even that he lacks quality, it's just he's not a very professional player and this ends up hampering his effectiveness on the pitch and makes him a very hot and cold player. Which brings us to the similarity with the previously mentioned players: apart from Keane, all of them were at the peak of their powers (including Stam), but most were sold because of off-field issues with the manager. Ronaldo is the only one who wanted to leave.
All I would say is that we need Rooney fit and on form, and the only way he can do that is to be more professional. And it's not outside the realm of possibilities that the manager decides that Rooney's lack of professionalism is making him surplus to requirements.
I don't think Rooney has reached the heights of Van Nistlerooy. His potential has hinted at it, but he hasn't carried a team the way Ruud did in 2002-3. The guy was a machine, and I think the somewhat ignominious nature of his departure has somewhat obscured how good he was from 2001-5.
As for Beckham and Keane, it's hard to compare them with Rooney. However, if you give me the choice between Rooney and an in-his-prime Roy Keane, I'll go with Keano every time (and that's no slight on Rooney.)
As for Beckham and Keane, it's hard to compare them with Rooney. However, if you give me the choice between Rooney and an in-his-prime Roy Keane, I'll go with Keano every time (and that's no slight on Rooney.)
They were better in your opinion. Again it's hard to compare players in different positions, but as insanely awesome as Ruud was, the team played the way a team built around one player does (similar thing happened last year @ Arsenal), and so his contribution (goal wise) is even bigger than it would be "normaly", or should I say Rooney's currently, due to the fact that we know have a stronger squad with a larger array of talent and generaly more attacking threats, so you can count on several players to nick you a goal.
I'm not saying he's perfect, I think he should put in that little bit of effort more so he could raise his game (and subsequently United's game) even higher, but I also think some of you are underestimating his ability and importance, maybe that's why I feel the need to emphasize it.
Again, not taking anything away from Ruud, but we were completely dependant on him at the time, it was either Ruud scores or we lose (more or less). Same thing last year with Arsenal and Robin.
Had Ruud played in a team like the current one it would make us incredibily lethal, yes, but he wouldn't score as many goals singlehandedly as he did during his time here.
Fair enough, to each his own, I'll take Rooney (with no offense to Keane, guy was a fecking beast of a player).
Just a question out of curiousity, would you say the fact that getting a "replacement" for Rooney is in a way easier than one for Keane helped you in your decision or would you say it didn't play a part in it? Not that it mathers, I'm just wondering, since I too find our lack of a player like Keane to be blatantly obvious and is just something I can't just "go around".
OK. So Ruud played in a team with people like Giggs, Beckham, Scholes, Keane, Rooney, Ronaldo, Rio, Van De Sar, most of whom were at the peak of their powers, and still managed to be the main man... is not better than Rooney? Come on...
The guy was well on course to break every club and league scoring record there is had he not left. Rooney is not as good as Ruud. I don't see how you could think otherwise.
RVN was the standout player on a team featuring the likes of Scholes, Beckham, Giggs, Veron, and Neville. That's pretty impressive.
As for Keane, I think his skill aligned with his drive made him the perfect captain.
So I'm not sure why we're debating this given the opinions you find very extreme weren't mine anyway.
Also, I'm not expecting no discussion due to differing opinions but some tend to get more flustered and outraged when theirs are met with disagreement.
Would like to add that Ruud achieved those phenomenal statistics in a relatively poor (barring one season) United team. He would be frighteningly good in one of our better ones.
Nobody is denying that Rooney is a very good player but what is taking the piss is people behaving as if he is irreplaceable. Nobody is irreplaceable and we have overcame the departure of bigger talents like Ronaldo, RVN. The only thing I'm holding against him is simply the fact that he's lost his hunger and will to improve. He's stagnated in the last 2 seasons and the fact that the team is built around his goalscoring masked a lot of inefficient lackluster performances. He's got bags of potential to be more than just a scorer and the faster people realised it, the earlier the end to this debate.
Very interesting that the Boss says Wayne isn´t as fit as ´the other midfield players. I take from that Fergie sees Rooney playing a deeper role this season as one of the ´3´behind Van Persie´s ´1´in a 4-2-3-1. Also interesting was the name checking of Kagawa, maybe an indication that even when Wayne is fit Shinji remains central to Sir Alex´s plans?
IMO Rooney has never been as good as Ruud was and never will. At his peak Ruud was the best striker in the game, unstoppable.
If that's the case how was he fit to start against Everton, a full week earlier?
He probably wasn't, but he was a better option than van Persie who'd signed about 4 days previous and had no pre-season.
We had Welbeck and Hernandez.
It also doesn't make sense why Welbeck was taken off when it was clear Rooney wasn't fit, and having a really bad game.
Basically SAF is playing his man management games.
Ronaldo and Rooney weren't at the peak of their powers, and frankly although we've never had a crappy squad the time that Ruud spent at United was probably the point in time when our team was "the weakest".
Again, don't get me wrong, I think of him as one of our best strikers of all time, and purely as a striker/goalscorer he is/was better, however some of it must come down to the fact that he was fielded in a weaker squad compared to today's squad (as in other players' abilities to score themselves) , and we also specificaly didn't have the striking options we have now as well.
To be honest we (were) debating several things, not just those insane opinions, they were simply something I mentioned and you wanted to know those names.
I like to think I "kept my cool" regarding this. I hardly got pissed at anyone, and although opinions differ I don't think I claim anything outrageous.
Yes, having Ruud on our squad today would just be too good to be true, to have somebody like him leading the line is something we could all hope for, however, even though we'd be incredibily frightening to oposing teams, with the team we have right now Ruud would not singlehandedly score as many goals as he did when he was more or less our only option.
Not saying he'd be any worse as a player, just that everything would be "spead" amongst the team, for instance he wouldn't HAVE TO score every game since with the team we've got I'm pretty sure we've got enough people capable of scoring that we're going to score one way or another.
Yes, we've lost Ronaldo and managed to keep going, so I'm sure this wouldn't be much different, however we'd suffer from a loss of quality whichever way you look at it.
It's debatable that 4 years after Ronaldo's left we finaly made a squad that could be "as good as Ronaldo's". Frankly I don't think we're there yet, the 07/08 squad frankly had more talent, if nothing else we had Ronaldo, something you just can't buy nowadays unless you're Madrid, PSG, City,...
Sure we found Valencia, and the guy's a beast, I love him as a player, but even though he had a monster of a season last year he's still no Ronaldo. Not that I'm expecting him to be, but you get my point.
We're able to cope with the loss, but we stagnate with a replacement at best, usualy we lose quite a bit of our strength.
EDIT: Damn it now people got me reminiscing of the RvN times again.
If only he had a superior team around him, he'd win so many trophies at United, his finishing is second to none.
I don't think saying somebody isn't fit enough is man management, probably just the truth. I'm glad Ferguson has admitted it.
Disagree about Ruud again. Messi plays in one of the greatest club side of all time. Would he score more at Arsenal? No way.
Using the Messi comparison? really?
To me last season Arsenal/RvP was basicaly United/RvN a couple of years back, although we did have a bit stronger squad, but the point about the striking position remains.
I like RvP and I'd like nothing more than to be proven wrong but there's no way in hell he'll score more goals this year with us than he did last season at Arsenal.
Messi comparison or using Messi in an example to make a point?
And your logic isn't completely flawed imo but you apply to too many situations when it suits the Rooney angle. It generally applies when a player is one who needs to be used a certain way and then moves to a club where he isn't and isn't given the same importance.
Rooney, HAS been given a free role at United so I don't see him scoring more in Arsenal's system. On the other hand, Ruud doesn't actually need to be used specifically anyway so he'd score as many in a better team.
Also the spread argument is countered by the fact that in a better team you actually get more chances laid on a plate for you.
And no I don't see van persie scoring that many goals for us. He spent years getting at the same wavelength as his team mates at Arsenal and understanding the system to perfection.
What absolute nonsense. He was absolutely brilliant in the second half of the season two years back and this last season he scored 35 goals. He might not have been at his best last season but he still managed 35. He's not stagnated but this sort of nonsense comes up about Rooney everytime he has a poor game or two.
I do think people in this thread are forgetting how good Rooney actually is at his best. Last season we saw very little of that, but Rooney in the second half of 10/11 for example was quite easily one of the best players in the world. Very much around that Xavi/Iniesta bracket given his overall game and goalscoring threat. Likewise, Rooney last year and in 09/10 was one of the best forwards in the world. Not a shadow of a doubt about that.
He's not really inconsistent as a whole; more inconsistent in regards to showing his absolute best game, which really is very special. I would take that Rooney in the second half of 10/11 over Van Persie and Kagawa without even thinking about it. When people say he's never been as good as Van Nistelrooy, I cannot say I agree. Van Nistelrooy was an unbelievable forward and goalscorer, but Rooney is unbelievably good in the hole at his best. I think the issue now is more whether he's lost that extra special dimension of his game altogether, not whether he was actually there at one point in the first place.
He's not really inconsistent as a whole; more inconsistent in regards to showing his absolute best game, which really is very special. I would take that Rooney in the second half of 10/11 over Van Persie and Kagawa without even thinking about it. When people say he's never been as good as Van Nistelrooy, I cannot say I agree. Van Nistelrooy was an unbelievable forward and goalscorer, but Rooney is unbelievably good in the hole at his best. I think the issue now is more whether he's lost that extra special dimension of his game altogether, not whether he was actually there at one point in the first place.
The argument is though that after Rooney's brilliant season in 2009/2010, he was supposed to go from being a world class striker to one of the very best players in the world, in that top 3 bracket alongside Xavi and Iniesta. Say what you want, but he hasn't been able to do that, and I see what he means when he says stagnated. I'm not sure if you can call Wayne Rooney now a better player than you would've called him this time 2 years ago.
That's the problem though and it's why he frustrates so many people. Rooney at his very best then really was one of the best players in the world, but the problem is that he showed that sort of football very few times last season. He did score goals, but a lot of his performances last year were of a very good goalscorer, not a world class footballer. It's natural that people will become frustrated when, despite him being a top player, he doesn't show those performances often enough. That's what separates him from some of the other best players in the world.
Surely he was pretty much that bracket in the second half of 10/11? If not that bracket, then a bracket by himself between those two and everyone else.
Everyone was going mental about him, and rightly so.
I'm sorry, didn't Rooney have his highest goalscoring tally in his career last season, or am I just imagining things?
Where Rooney was played depended on who the other players in use were, and that very apparently changed throughout the years. He has been played out wide, in the hole, as the leading striker, and even a couple of times in the midfield.
He always gets in the side simply because he's that good and integral to our play. It's true that now with Kagawa and Van Persie you got two incredibily talented footballers covering Rooney's most frequently covered areas, which is exactly why we'll be seeing more rotation again, but Rooney will play, I can guarantee you that.
Throughout the years Rooney has played in several positions as mentioned before, because he's able to still apply his game in a manner in which most footballers can't. He's not as good a pure striker or finisher as Ruud, but is a better overall player.
And using the Van Persie/Arsenal logic you're using is flawed too. Van Persie also played out wide and in the hole, it was only relatively recently that he got put up front leading the line (and he excelled in that role).
Couple that with the fact that Arsenal's squad changed dramaticaly last season, and generaly over the course of a few seasons during which RvP was at the club. The only thing he got to know better was Wenger, the team changed and so did the game plan.
That's not the point I'm arguing against though. I've seen in this thread that Rooney hadn't reached such and such a level, but the fact remains that he was actually amazing at one point.
Edit: Just to clarify my position, I'm tempted to say at this moment, until we see more of Kagawa in midfield or the left, that Rooney would perhaps not make my strongest, most well balanced United team. Rooney at his best though walks into it as the first player on the teamsheet. Whether he still has that in him remains to be seen.
They were, but it was generally only for a limited period of time over a few months. In the end, he wasn't able to sustain that form for too long. Again, that's what separates him from the very top bracket of players. He can consistently score, but he really needs to consistently reproduce these top performances. It's been a long time since we saw that better Rooney now.
Fair enough, he was incredible at one point and did reach that level, but if he can't sustain it for a long period of time or reproduce it then it's not worth much. Even though I wouldn't agree with people who said it, there would be people who could argue it was just a spell of good form, and there wouldn't be too much to disprove that theory, even though I don't agree with it.
It is annoying that he didn't keep that up. There's no reason why some of his facets should randomly deteriorate just because it was Welbeck ahead of him and not Hernandez. Things like his touch, speed of thought etc were not quite there a lot of the time last year, even though he was still an excellent goalscorer.
The one game where it all came together again in my opinion was Everton (4-4), and that wasn't really that long ago. Perhaps he still does have it in him, but it needs to come out on a more consistent basis.
The one game where it all came together again in my opinion was Everton (4-4), and that wasn't really that long ago. Perhaps he still does have it in him, but it needs to come out on a more consistent basis.
What's this in relation to? You just feel like bigging him up? It's like you're responding to noone.
Potentially better for me. As things stand, I'd take Ruud. Rooney might be well rounded but I'd prefer Ruud upfront in my team.
Do you even know what the logic is that you're calling flawed? I'm not saying that Van Persie suddenly got used to Arsenal's system last year and hence scored all those goals. I know that he played in a variety of roles and Wenger decided to put him uptop and he altered his style of play accordingly (and managed to stay fit). Everyone has read the quotes. My "logic" was that he was still an Arsenal player for around 8 years and hence was used to the team/manager/club/system. To expect him to, at 29, come to a new environment and score 40 goals in a year is unrealistic.
It's in direct relation to the topic which we're discussing.
Fair enough, you'd take Ruud, I'd take Rooney.
The only thing that didn't change during his 8 years there is Wenger being at the helm, the system and the players went through a series of changes, there's not really that much he could've become acustomed to since whatever that would be would've changed quite quickly.
Really to me it seems as if we've come to a point where we both said pretty much everything we've had to say and we just can't come to the same page, and while both valid, our oppinions differ and will continue to do so.
Agree to disagree about everything else, but I still don't see your point regarding this. Do you not think it generally takes players time to get used to a club/manager/system? Is it easier for Rooney at 26 having been at United for 8 years to feel at complete ease at the club and it's system than a 29 year old Berbatov whose just come to the club? It seems like you're arguing this for the sake of it really. And no, Asenal's system has not changed really. Little tweaks here and there as happens with Fergie. But he doesn't change his ways every two years. That's silly.
Knowing Rooney, he'll start banging them in for fun around Christmas, and we'll all be eating our words and proclaiming him to be a top-5 player. Then he'll either get injured, sent-off or have a fallout with SAF and go through the inevitable slump that will have us questioning whether he really is world class. And this cycle will repeat again and again.
This is the Rooney dilemma: he's far too good for any sane fan to want to get rid of him, yet he's also too inconsistent and injury-prone to rely on for a full-season's worth of production. That's why I think we were smart to get Van Persie (not to mention Kagawa.)
This is the Rooney dilemma: he's far too good for any sane fan to want to get rid of him, yet he's also too inconsistent and injury-prone to rely on for a full-season's worth of production. That's why I think we were smart to get Van Persie (not to mention Kagawa.)
The best thing about people proclaiming Ruud obviously superior to Rooney, is that he never managed to score as many league goals in a season as Rooney did last year, and Rooney did this playing as a number ten.
I get it, he's a dickhead, I don't like him either, but he's also one of the best players in the world and easily one of the best to ever play for this club. What a bunch of weirdos there are on this forum.
Might be because Wayne Rooney is superior to Ruud Van Nistelrooy in pretty much every single aspect of being a footballer. As astonishingly brilliant as Ruud was at scoring goals, he was only really good for only one thing, and at this point Wayne's better than him at that and all.
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