It doesn't, that's just how it inevitably pans out in the Rooney and RVP threads though.
Wayne Rooney | 2012-14 Performances
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It doesn't, that's just how it inevitably pans out in the Rooney and RVP threads though.
Well it tends to start off with people suggesting that selling him wouldn't have a major effect on us.
I would agree with that Zen. You do see a lot of the "cant believe we're talking about Wayne like this" 
With RVP and Rooney, we have two truly World Class forward in our team, so we should never consider selling Rooney, unless he really wants out.
Thing is, you make it sound cut and dried. There's been very little between Rooney and RvP over the last three years. Their statistics tell you this.
I don't understand why some posters are so bum-hurt over Rooney questioning the club's ambition, when, at the time, most of the fans were doing the same! We did need to pull our finger out of our arse and improve the squad. Who cares if Rooney 'held the club to ransom' to get a new deal. Happens all the time in non-footballing occupations too.
The way I see it is that we have a terrific player in Rooney, who gets unbelievable stick because fans are letting petty vendettas get in the way of logic.
Since Ronaldo left United, Rooney has scored 100 goals in 158 games. 0.63 gpg. That's before we factor in assists, and his importance in terms of linking our midfield and attack (we're undoubtedly a more cohesive side when Rooney plays).
In the same period, van Persie has 92 goals in 133 games. 0.69 gpg.
What do I infer from this? RvP has a marginally better strike rate, though this could be attributed to Rooney's more variable position. Overall, we have two world class strikers with a happy knack of finding the net. Why do so many fans frame it as an issue of one versus the other? They're on the same team and we play them as a fecking partnership!
In the same period, van Persie has 92 goals in 133 games. 0.69 gpg.
What do I infer from this? RvP has a marginally better strike rate, though this could be attributed to Rooney's more variable position. Overall, we have two world class strikers with a happy knack of finding the net. Why do so many fans frame it as an issue of one versus the other? They're on the same team and we play them as a fecking partnership!
I think the majority just want to see Rooney firing In his top form consistently. We all know what he can do, if only he could string that form together for more than a few games in a row it would be great. Him and rvp could be a legendary partnership
The notion of Rooney's inconsistency is overplayed, IMO. I could count his poor games on one hand this season. Even when he's below par, he produces a contribution - Norwich recently is a good example.
Rooney is our best player and makes us tick. RVP is the icing on the cake but Rooney is our heart beat. Hope he is fit for tmrw as when Wayne plays well we win.
Best post I have seen in a long time! Take a bow Feed me son!
While I think Rooney is the better player, I don't think there's a particular gulf between them. I only take up the argument because Van Persie, much like Tevez in his first season, is now used as a stick with which to beat Rooney, for whatever reason.
Yep, this is it! First it was Cristiano > Rooney, then Tevez > Rooney and nowdays is popular Van Persie > Rooney.
IMO only first statement is really true, since Cristiano is alongside Messi in a league of their own, but neither Tevez or Van Persie are better players. Play any of tose two out of position as many times as Rooney was played and doubt they would score same amount of goals he did, or influence team play like he does.
But for some reason it's always popular to mock Rooney, if that's right word, and he'll always miss "that" something. For the rest of the world he's world class player, higly appreciated by the players who've played with him or play with him now, and by managers out there, but not for the some people on the Caf. Thank God for all the true experts here!
I think more worryingly, when he doesn't, we lose!
Perhaps part of the issue is that fans go a bit overboard in their praise for Rooney as well as with their criticism. There's very few people who still are upset at him for holding the club at ransom. You shouldn't blow it off either. He made a mistake. One which would have hurt him more than us. It was stupid and at the time a very big deal. Are you trying to say publicly questioning your employers is not a big deal?
The only thing that really bothers me is that some fans act as if Rooney can do no wrong. Or the idea that RvP is better than him is appalling. Even when he's playing shite, an excuse has to be found. Why? If you're not playing well, you're not playing well. In terms of overall play, he's not a consistent player. The only reason it's okay is because he's still finding ways to score even when he's having a mediocre day. I haven't seen him do anything on an abysmal day though. Therefore, to me, the heartbeat idea doesnt make sense. It's simply filled with misguided sentimentality. They say he makes us tick but what has he done recently that has shown that? I thought that's what Carrick does. You see what I mean? Saying such things sound great but I'm not sure what value it really has if it's not well-reflected in reality. It may have been true at some point but I'm not sure how anyone can come to the conclusion now. That's just my take. Feel free to disagree.
That being said, I'm glad we have him because now him and Rvp can share the burden of being the main man. It shouldn't matter who is the best or most important player. What matters is helping United win games. Both players improve the team. Whether both are starting or one of them. For me it's not to fun discuss who is the better player when people start getting butt-hurt about some of the views being expressed. It's what happens every single time.
You would think people would talk about why their partnership hasn't really bloomed into life as we thought it would. I guess it's more interesting to try and convince someone on the internet why one striker is better than the other.
Indeed. Something I havent seen often enough from him. As I've said many times, it's my main criticism of him.
Is this one of those forums where you're not allowed to reply to a post exclusively with a smiley?
Of course questioning your employers is a big deal. But it was years ago and was dealt with at the time - SAF publicly took him to task and he apologised to the squad. I don't see why it's even still relevant.
He clearly can do wrong, but you surely see that Rooney is judged against higher standards than anyone else in the squad? He is pilloried for his below par performances unlike any other player, something I believe is linked to the transfer request we're discussing.
I don't think it's ludicrous to suggest RvP is slightly superior to Rooney, just like I think a case be could made to say that Rooney just edges it. What I have consistently railed against though is the idea that RvP is "easily" better, something a lot of fans argued when he was in great form earlier in the season.
Obviously, saying Rooney is the "heartbeat" of the team is an emotive way of framing his importance to us. Maybe that is too strong, but he's undoubtedly a key player. Same as RvP.
I've no interest in carrying on debating the importance of Rooney to the club - anyone who thinks we should jettison him is delusional frankly (not saying you are, more of a general point). Even if you don't think he's a great forward, trying to replace 100 goals in 158 games (plus countless assists) would be nigh on impossible for a reasonable price.
The reason you get people defending Rooney in here is because if you go back in this thread (you dont have to go too far) you will find comments suggesting Rooney should go and find form in the reserves - despite being our current in form striker, he should be sold - one poster suggested selling him just before he breaks Sir Bobby's record, he will never be a club legend even if he breaks the goal scoring records because of the contract situation, that he isn't that important to the team and that there is some huge gulf between him and RvP. Posts like these will always provoke a reaction.
RvP seems exempt from criticism this season regardless of form probably because of how well he played earlier in the season and because he's still all shiny and new, but people forget Rooney has given us great service for almost a decade now helping us to win many trophies during his career here, not just two thirds of a season. There is a lot of short-sightedness in regard to Rooney. And those citing the contract issue conveniently forget there are many club heroes here who have had issues with the club in some shape or form.
RvP seems exempt from criticism this season regardless of form probably because of how well he played earlier in the season and because he's still all shiny and new, but people forget Rooney has given us great service for almost a decade now helping us to win many trophies during his career here, not just two thirds of a season. There is a lot of short-sightedness in regard to Rooney. And those citing the contract issue conveniently forget there are many club heroes here who have had issues with the club in some shape or form.
Nicely summed up.
Aye good points. To answer your question, Fans should look at themselves for how high their standards. The fans decide to put him on such a pedestal and when he's not performing up to scratch, they move goalposts somehow to make sure he's still high on that pedestal. It's a very strange occurrence.
For me, I think he can be more consistent in his overall play. I don't think that's asking too much but I may just have to accept it's not going to happen. I wish he was more consistent as I feel it's one of the things holding him back from being an even greater player. Some people think his application and determination isn't what it should be. They cite examples of when he was benched for drinking and the times where Fergie criticised him for coming back unfit and a tad bit overweight.
Spot on with the key player bit. The way us fans talk sometimes, it seems like we can only have one key player
I'm not sure what you mean by short-sightedness. I think fans are just keeping things relative to this season. RvP whilst going through a goalscoring lull, isn't letting his overall game go to shit. And he's getting criticism from missing sitters. Rooney while putting up some great stats isn't having that great of a season. Let's be honest. Wayne has been here far longer than Robin. So in terms of criticism,expectation, importance, how each is viewed, they will never be on the same playing field. Wayne's just been here too long for that. At the end of the day, we can recognise they are both key players for us.
If you ask anyone about Rooney's career here, even if people say he hasn't lived up to their expectations, the majority will still recognise what a great player he has been. He may not be seen as a club legend but he will definitely be appreciated. However, I don't think some of the criticism has been too bad. I think most on here know what he's done for United. At the same time, that doesn't necessarily excuse you from poor performances or let alone improving your game. I think it's fair to expect Wayne to buck up his ideas in terms of his consistency. I always find it weird though when we put him up as the third best player in the world whenever he's playing well and then he becomes a very good player when he's not. That's quite a big drop there for me. Honestly, I think it's interesting because there are other players out there who could easily be named 3rd best in the world by their respective fans as well.
To sum up, if Rooney is sold before he breaks the record, it'd be somewhat of a shame but not the biggest deal. Breaking records isn't what football is about. It's about what you contribute on the pitch. I know those sentences aren't mutually exclusive. I'm just saying SAF shouldn't keep Rooney around just to break a record if he's no longer performing at the required level. You can talk about his career as much as you want, it doesn't change the fact he can do better than what he's done in terms of overall play.
And was all that you said in that first paragraph really suggested by one poster? That seems to be a culmination of what a few were saying.
Plato, the thing is though, this poor season of Rooney's is being massively exaggerated. Rooney's poor games on a personal level? Everton away and Swansea away. The other games people cite where he didn't play well like second half against Chelsea at home in the FA Cup, the entire team as a collective played equally as poor, we could barely string two passes together in that half and with a pass completion of 88% clearly Rooney wasn't the biggest culprit re giving the ball away (Carrick only had 1% more than Rooney and Valencia's was a shocking 56% for comparison purposes) but still he comes under the most stick and people suggest we should sell him
Rooney's season has been stop-start due to injury and various niggles yet he's posting stats bettering Mata who plays in the same position and has played a lot more games and yet people would argue Mata is having his best season and Rooney one of his worst. In this injury hit season Rooney is scoring and making goals at his best ever rate in the PL. Tell me why that should be overlooked because of the odd short pass or sloppy touch? The point is that when Rooney isn't having his best ever game he still contributes and that's important.
No one is in here suggesting that Rooney is the third best in the world and that he's putting in world beating performances every week.
Because you haven't seen the posts (multiple, from different posters) I'm talking about so you probably don't know the context of the conversations. I've quoted the one you're justifying below, but nobody suggested Rooney be kept for the sole purpose of breaking a record that would be silly, someone just suggested that the player who will likely break Sir Bobby's record should get a bit more credit. I agree.
Rooney's season has been stop-start due to injury and various niggles yet he's posting stats bettering Mata who plays in the same position and has played a lot more games and yet people would argue Mata is having his best season and Rooney one of his worst. In this injury hit season Rooney is scoring and making goals at his best ever rate in the PL. Tell me why that should be overlooked because of the odd short pass or sloppy touch? The point is that when Rooney isn't having his best ever game he still contributes and that's important.
No one is in here suggesting that Rooney is the third best in the world and that he's putting in world beating performances every week.
Because you haven't seen the posts (multiple, from different posters) I'm talking about so you probably don't know the context of the conversations. I've quoted the one you're justifying below, but nobody suggested Rooney be kept for the sole purpose of breaking a record that would be silly, someone just suggested that the player who will likely break Sir Bobby's record should get a bit more credit. I agree.
Plato, the thing is though, this poor season of Rooney's is being massively exaggerated. Rooney's poor games on a personal level? Everton away and Swansea away. The other games people cite where he didn't play well like second half against Chelsea at home in the FA Cup, the entire team as a collective played equally as poor, we could barely string two passes together in that half and with a pass completion of 88% clearly Rooney wasn't the biggest culprit re giving the ball away (Carrick only had 1% more than Rooney and Valencia's was a shocking 56% for comparison purposes) but still he comes under the most stick and people suggest we should sell him
Rooney's season has been stop-start due to injury and various niggles yet he's posting stats bettering Mata who plays in the same position and has played a lot more games and yet people would argue Mata is having his best season and Rooney one of his worst. In this injury hit season Rooney is scoring and making goals at his best ever rate in the PL. Tell me why that should be overlooked because of the odd short pass or sloppy touch? The point is that when Rooney isn't having his best ever game he still contributes and that's important.
No one is in here suggesting that Rooney is the third best in the world and that he's putting in world beating performances every week.
Because you haven't seen the posts (multiple, from different posters) I'm talking about so you probably don't know the context of the conversations. I've quoted the one you're justifying below, but nobody suggested Rooney be kept for the sole purpose of breaking a record that would be silly, someone just suggested that the player who will likely break Sir Bobby's record should get a bit more credit. I agree.
It's been suggested before though (first part of that sentence at least).
And Rooney was poor that whole game imo (chelsea FA cup). The goal overshadowed that. Pass completion doesn't tell the whole story. He lost the ball numerous times.
Maybe it is being overlooked, maybe it's not. It all depends on your reference. It certainly wouldn't be if it was the "odd short or sloppy pass". I think some fans are just commenting on what they're seeing on the pitch. Does mata really play in the same position? Rooney's a forward player/striker is he not? We're not playing him as a 10. He's just the deeper striker but feel free to disagree. I don't really watch Chelsea's matches and from what I've heard last season Mata was better but who knows. Even still, it's stats + performances. That's why I think Rooney's having an average season despite the great stats he's posting. It's certainly exaggerating to say Rooney is having a poor season. Just not a great one.
How exactly am I justifying RK's position? Did I say wayne doesn't deserve it?
The reason he is criticised more than others is simple. If you are going to force the club to either pay you bpitw level wages, or to invest more in the team because you think you are that much better than your current team mates you are painting a huge target on your back the moment your performances slip even slightly below amazing.
The heart beat of the team who was dropped for its biggest game of the season. But carry in with the silly hyperbole.
It's not the same though is it. I'm over it myself, but that's a silly comparison. Manchester United footballers have a higher duty to behave responsibly than supporters do, and I think Giggs and Scholes (G Neville too I think) have expressed their surprise/disappointment that a player publicly questioned the manager, suggesting it's not just a case of football fans being too precious (although there is a bit of that too).
It is clear to me that Rvp is better. I never said he was on a different level. Both are top players.
The only 'bum hurt' posters in here are those taking offense to the suggestion that Rooney isn't the be all and end all of Manchester United.
The player who makes us tick, are you people having a laugh? He hasn't been that player for a while now, it makes me think that some posters are still stuck in 2008, fantasizing over the player Rooney used to be. That's not me saying he's shit, it's me saying his game has changed.
The player who makes us tick, are you people having a laugh? He hasn't been that player for a while now, it makes me think that some posters are still stuck in 2008, fantasizing over the player Rooney used to be. That's not me saying he's shit, it's me saying his game has changed.
2007-08 was arguably Rooney's worst season, you weirdo. He's been far better since Ronaldo left than he ever was when the Portugese was here.
Congratulations on missing the point completely.
The point is that those who claim Rooney isn't the player he used to be are full of shit, just as they were back in 2010 when he wasn't the player he used to be. Just like they were in 2008 when he wasn't the player he used to be. Just like they were in 2006 when he wasn't the player he used to be. It's facile as all hell and pretty much the clearest marker of someone who doesn't actually know anything about football. You're all footballing conservatives, for whom the past was always better.
edit: Seriously, look at this. https://www.redcafe.net/f6/rooney-has-peaked-149244/
The sentiment was widespread enough for there to be a thread parodying it...SIX YEARS AGO!
edit: Seriously, look at this. https://www.redcafe.net/f6/rooney-has-peaked-149244/
The sentiment was widespread enough for there to be a thread parodying it...SIX YEARS AGO!
Rooney is NOT the player he used to be. He has improved and is a better player now, but he is visibly different player.
I didn't mean he hadn't changed (he scores twice as many goals now than he did as a kid, for example, and boots the ball into the stands once a month rather than twice a half), merely that people use the phrase to imply he's gone downhill.
Yeah, but he also succeeds one full pelt dribbling per month, whereas he used to skip past them like a madman in the past - that's the point. People love explosiveness and swagger and some of them will feel he regressed. The truth is somewhere in the middle, for me he's improved massively (in overall ability) but certainly hasn't lived up to my uber-high expectations.
We aren't the same team without him anyway, whether the haters like it or not.
We aren't the same team without him anyway, whether the haters like it or not.
He's just become a much smarter, and therefore much better player. It happens with almost all great players. Just compare the best two in the world to who they were five years ago, much duller, and much better.
I quite clearly implied that this wasn't what I was saying. You just went on the usual precious tantrum that unfortunately is quite common in this thread.
Wow, you edited your original post to try and make me look bad...that's hilariously pathetic. I'm embarrassed for you, genuinely.
This sentence was not on your post when I responded to it:
"That's not me saying he's shit, it's me saying his game has changed."
edit: I'm also pretty sure it was all one paragraph, and that it originally ended with another line, but can't quite recall.
"That's not me saying he's shit, it's me saying his game has changed."
edit: I'm also pretty sure it was all one paragraph, and that it originally ended with another line, but can't quite recall.
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