Wayne Rooney | 2012-14 Performances

[Chabon]

That's a terrible comparison. It's incredibly easy to make a strong case that Welbeck is a better player than Taarabt.

So okay then, one point on Van Persie's favour is that he supposedly looks less crap when playing crap. Perhaps you can see why that's not an especially compelling argument?

I don't think anyone would say RVP being a better player is an undeniable fact.

Look up.

 

[Sparky_Hughes]

disagree with your final statement, Rooney "out of form" iin my opinion is a real sight to behold - you'd think some bald bloke from the pub had hijacked his jersey.

OY OY OY.....Im not having that.....that "haircut" cost a lot of money young man.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

I'd say out of all people who watch both regularly, more would say Van Persie is our best player. Irrespective of the stats it would be there opinion based on watching our matches.

In this day and age, a lot of people have a short memory.

 

[Chabon]

In this day and age, as evidenced by a number of threads on this forum, a lot of people have no memory.

 

[Platato]

I don't think anyone would say RVP being a better player is an undeniable fact. Likewise only an idiot would say that Rooney being better is a "fact". For what it's worth (not much) I'd say out of all people who watch both regularly, more would say Van Persie is our best player. Irrespective of the stats it would be there opinion based on watching our matches.

One side may argue bias because Rooney has been a United player for 9 years and potentially our future highest ever goalscorer and living legend, whilst RVP played for our rivals. The other side may do likewise because Rooney is a bit of a scumbag character wise and messed the club around. Personal preference I guess.

The reason I personally prefer RVP as a player is because I believe that even off form he leads the line exceptionally well. If he had scored the 3-4 chances that he should have scored in recent weeks we'd still be saying he is in amazing all round form. The criticism has only stemmed from missing those chances, in my opinion. Rooney on the other hand I feel can look like it's his first time on a Football pitch when in bad form (failure to control simple passes, passing to an opposition player 3-4 yards in front of him and being generally hopeless) which is very frustrating. This is why I'd massively disagree with your final statement, Rooney "out of form" iin my opinion is a real sight to behold - you'd think some bald bloke from the pub had hijacked his jersey.

I personally wouldn't say that Taarabt is a far superior player to Welbeck, despite your criterion clearly illustrating that he could well be.

Top post. And I agree with that bolded part. It's where I stand as well. When Rooney plays as a number 9, it limits the other parts of his game. He doesn't contribute as much towards the build up play and his overall play just isn't as good. despite him scoring so many goals in 09/10 his overall play was bemoaned by many.

 

[Platato]

Chabon, I personally think you don't account for enough nuance with the stats you pose. Nothing in your stats says anything about either Rooney or Rvp's bottom level. I don't think Wayne is our best player. You do. However your claims don't really make much of a strong case imo. In fact, they highlight that stats-wise there's not much between Rvp and Rooney. Yet from watching both players, I do think there is a clear difference in terms of application and consistency. Whilst van persie is having a goal drought of his own, his overall play hasn't suffered as a result. It's been the same all season long. It's simply not magnified now that he hasn't been scoring and plus, our team isnt performing very well at the moment. Rooney has much more application to his game. Even when he's not playing well, he still tries to influence the game, which isn't the best thing to do if you're having a bad day at the office. Though I commend him for being able to score goals when he's not at his best. Nonetheless, when it comes to form, Rooney is all over the place. that's something stats cannot account for.

All in all, it intrigues me how some fans become infuriated at the very mention that Rooney is not our best player. Everyone has their reasons, claims, beliefs and what not. Yet no one really talks about what does it mean to be the best player for United. Nor does anyone really talk about what it means to be the best striker. By this I mean, no one really talks about in light of the Rvp v Rooney discussion. They're always separate entities. There's simply a lot of underlying assumptions we all make when we come into these discussions and it leads to some irrelevant points being made. Does my definition of 'best striker' match yours? Are they even related?

Personally, from my background, if we actually wanted to have a sound RvP vs. Rooney debate, we'd have to agree on certain terms (what it means to be the best player/striker), otherwise you will always have the possibility of someone bringing in a different angle which isn't necessarily relevant to the discussion. Right now, it's very cyclical and I always feel it really accomplishes nothing. You simply have rehashed opinions with a splattering of stats which only adds so much. So basically if you were to look at any Rvp v Rooney discussion during the first part of the season, I don't think there would be much difference in what was being said. The only difference would most likely be the volume of it (i.e. Rooney being our best player). Just my thoughts.

 

[AttackingFlair]

How many times have we seen him as a number 9 recently though? His last game as a number 9 was with England against Montenegro and he was their best player.

 

[Decotron]

Chabon, I personally think you don't account for enough nuance with the stats you pose. Nothing in your stats says anything about either Rooney or Rvp's bottom level. I don't think Wayne is our best player. You do. However your claims don't really make much of a strong case imo. In fact, they highlight that stats-wise there's not much between Rvp and Rooney. Yet from watching both players, I do think there is a clear difference in terms of application and consistency. Whilst van persie is having a goal drought of his own, his overall play hasn't suffered as a result. It's been the same all season long. It's simply not magnified now that he hasn't been scoring and plus, our team isnt performing very well at the moment. Rooney has much more application to his game. Even when he's not playing well, he still tries to influence the game, which isn't the best thing to do if you're having a bad day at the office. Though I commend him for being able to score goals when he's not at his best. Nonetheless, when it comes to form, Rooney is all over the place. that's something stats cannot account for.

All in all, it intrigues me how some fans become infuriated at the very mention that Rooney is not our best player. Everyone has their reasons, claims, beliefs and what not. Yet no one really talks about what does it mean to be the best player for United. Nor does anyone really talk about what it means to be the best striker. By this I mean, no one really talks about in light of the Rvp v Rooney discussion. They're always separate entities. There's simply a lot of underlying assumptions we all make when we come into these discussions and it leads to some irrelevant points being made. Does my definition of 'best striker' match yours? Are they even related?

Personally, from my background, if we actually wanted to have a sound RvP vs. Rooney debate, we'd have to agree on certain terms (what it means to be the best player/striker), otherwise you will always have the possibility of someone bringing in a different angle which isn't necessarily relevant to the discussion. Right now, it's very cyclical and I always feel it really accomplishes nothing. You simply have rehashed opinions with a splattering of stats which only adds so much. So basically if you were to look at any Rvp v Rooney discussion during the first part of the season, I don't think there would be much difference in what was being said. The only difference would most likely be the volume of it (i.e. Rooney being our best player). I think that's why threads get 'hijacked' every so often. Especially this one. Just my thoughts.

Thats hardly true now is it?

 

[Chabon]

There's some serious delusion on this forum about RVP, perhaps inevitable with him being a new signing (Good god can people remember the utter shite spouted about Tevez), but very tiresome nonetheless.

He's been shocking in a number of his recent performances, and that's fine, it happens to absolutely everyone (except Messi) at one time or another.

 

[Platato]

How many times have we seen him as a number 9 recently though? His last game as a number 9 was with England against Montenegro and he was their best player.

Well we can only really go based off the last time he was a 9 for United and that was 09/10 (at least consistently).

To me, it just further highlights why pinning Wayne down to a certain position is hard. He will have some good games as a 9 and he will have some poor ones. It's no different if he's played deeper as more of a 10.

Again as I said to Chabon, I think his form is all over the place and where Wayne should play is a discussion that constantly changes.

To Decotron, how do you mean exactly? Do you have specific examples to point to? All I have really noticed is he's not as involved as he was during his goalscoring streak. But he still pulls off flicks, dribbles and good touches to get out of tight situations. It wasn't too long ago, Brwned made a post with GIFs showing Rvp's play during the past month or so. To me, I don't think it's suffered. Just not highlighted as much.

 

[Decotron]

Im not really on any side of this one but Chabon is bang on with that assessment. Not sure how anyone could say differently looking at the last 10 games or so....

 

[Platato]

There's some serious delusion on this forum about RVP, perhaps inevitable with him being a new signing (Good god can people remember the utter shite spouted about Tevez), but very tiresome nonetheless.

He's been shocking in a number of his recent performances, and that's fine, it happens to absolutely everyone (except Messi) at one time or another.

And in my eyes, there's some delusion about Wayne too. Just depends on how you see it. Gets back to my point I made to you earlier. Your shocking maybe someone else's decent.

My personal take is overall, he's currently decent. Although for a striker of his standards, it's interesting he's missing the chances that he is. Everyone goes through a lull, I think it's how you respond to it which is key for me at least.

I don't see Robin's game going to shit because he's not scoring. He still does the basics very well. From my observations, with Rooney, it's off and on. Maybe part of it is because we don't have a settled position for him. Not sure but I just think that's how Wayne will always be.

 

[Platato]

Im not really on any side of this one but Chabon in bang on with that assessment. Not sure how anyone could say differently looking at the last 10 games or so....

I guess it depends what you focus on. His performance against Sunderland was good I thought. The little move he did to open up space for the goal was classic van Persie. Once again, it wasn't really highlighted and in fact more people focused on the miss at the end of the match. Throughout the match, I thought he contributed pretty well to our build up play albeit as a team we didn't do much to open up Sunderland.

I don't see the "because of his goal drought, he's playing poor" argument but I do see the "because of his goal drought, he's not playing as instinctively" one. Doesn't mean he's playing poor. He's still producing moments of individual quality. Just not as much as he was earlier in the season.

 

[AttackingFlair]

Spoiler

Few GIFs of Rooney's 'class' this season

 

[AttackingFlair]

Spoiler

 

[Platato]

Interesting. Watching some of those I just think 'good play'. Maybe that's why you put class in quotations. Good GIFs mind. Shame he can't produce such moments on a more consistent basis.

 

[finneh]

That's a terrible comparison. It's incredibly easy to make a strong case that Welbeck is a better player than Taarabt.

So okay then, one point on Van Persie's favour is that he supposedly looks less crap when playing crap. Perhaps you can see why that's not an especially compelling argument?

Look up.

Fine - I don't think you should take anyone seriously who says anything that is entirely opinion based is an undeniable fact.

No - I didn't say that Van Persie is less crap when playing crap. I said that Van Persie isn't actually crap - I believe the words were "even off form he leads the line exceptionally well". So my point was that even in his worst form, Van Persie is good.

Van Persie over the last 6 weeks is like Welbeck over the entire season, playing well but statistically garbage.

There's some serious delusion on this forum about RVP, perhaps inevitable with him being a new signing (Good god can people remember the utter shite spouted about Tevez), but very tiresome nonetheless.

He's been shocking in a number of his recent performances, and that's fine, it happens to absolutely everyone (except Messi) at one time or another.

Totally disagree with this post. If Van Persie had fired home 4 good chances that he has missed (2 vs Real, 1 vs Chelsea and 1 in either of the League games in between) everyone would be raving about his consistently brilliant form.

Van Persie obviously doesn't get the same slack given to a younger player like Welbeck when he misses clear cut opportunities and rightly so, but shocking? You must have a very poor opinion of our current squad if he's been shocking lately.

 

[Sam]

Thats hardly true now is it?

Well is is. RVP might not be scoring, but the rest of his game, i.e touch, passing, dribbling etc hasnt completely fallen apart, like it does with Rooney when he's going through one of his regular 'bad patches'.

 

[starman]

The Rooney situation remind me of Giggs and they were roughly the same age, when Inter were after him, he was getting injured a lot, poor form and was not instant first choice all the time.

Giggs of course however got his injuries behind him, showed incredible longevity and went onto reinvent himself, which i am sure few people would expect him to do. Rooney of course has a lot of years left in him as a forward and is as talented to be able to adapt his game in his 30's. However the difference is the way they look after eachother.

I think he will be here next year, and how that pans out will be very dependant on his long term future at united, that said, a mega offer from PSG however would not surprise me to see him leaving in the summer.

 

[wr8_utd]

Rooney was absolutely fantastic in that game vs Newcastle when he made his comeback. Brilliant performance!

 

[Freak]

Interesting. Watching some of those I just think 'good play'. Maybe that's why you put class in quotations. Good GIFs mind. Shame he can't produce such moments on a more consistent basis.

Same. When Kagawa was in those gifs, I was more impressed with him than Rooney. Those long passes were class though, but we already knew that those are quite easy for Rooney.

 

[coolredwine]

How many times have we seen him as a number 9 recently though? His last game as a number 9 was with England against Montenegro and he was their best player.

Hardly a compliment.

 

[LR7]

What are your opinions on my post below?




In my view, Persie is clearly better than Rooney. Not because he has scored a couple more goals either. Likewise, Messi isn't better than another striker on the basis that he scored 6 more goals in a season either.

For me it is simple. When you watch Wayne Rooney play every week, does he look like one of the best footballers in the world?

When answering such a question, goal tally is less relevant. I cited an example a few weeks back after the first Chelsea game and said that games like this occur way too frequently for Rooney. The record books will forever say Rooney 'scored' in that game, as fortuitous as the actual goal even was, but what it would not show, i that Rooney looked a million miles from a top player. He could barely control or pass the ball well, and when surrounded, he lacked the skill and invention to manouvere. Now of course, everyone can have a game like that, and it is a great asset to still leave such games with a goal. However, when many of your perfomances are not too dissimilar from such a level, then goals will not make you a world great for me.

The best players in the world (for me anyway) should look a class above most other players when they are on the pitch, not when their tally is totalled up at the end of the season. Van Persie, goal or no goal, has looked like the most talented footballer on the pitch majority of the times he has taken the field in the lat 3 seasons. Then we factor in the fact he often scores too. However, if he got 25 goals this season and so did Hernandez, we would not say 'in that case it obviouly has to come down to assist stats to see who the better footballer is'. Persie would just be better, simply because he is, well - better.

When we get to the end of the season and Sir Alex is evaluating the performance of his strikers do you think he's going to sit there and suggest that despite Rooney having a good goals/assists return that for some reason the gloss is taken off because whilst he was scoring and assisting he didn't look like the "most talented footballer on the pitch"?

Nani has the ability to often look like he's the most talented footballer on the pitch but not many would argue that he's the most important player here because other factors come into play too.

In terms of productivity there is very litte between Rooney and RvP and thats been the point I've been making all along and I stand by it. He's very under appreciated here despite being such an important player here for so many years. He seems to be more appreciated outside of England for some reason but i suppose that's nothing new.

 

[Platato]

LR7, some players are just never appreciated as some would like. Others receive more praise and less criticism. I think we've seen that between RvP and Rooney. Even though it's Robin's first season, I get the sense from the majority of United fans I've come in contact with, even if Robin was here for a while, he wouldnt get the same amount of criticism as wayne.

 

[Adam-Utd]

LR7, some players are just never appreciated as some would like. Others receive more praise and less criticism. I think we've seen that between RvP and Rooney. Even though it's Robin's first season, I get the sense from the majority of United fans I've come in contact with, even if Robin was here for a while, he wouldnt get the same amount of criticism as wayne.

Thats because currently though his all round game is still very good, hes just having a bit of a mare in his shooting.

He is still holding the ball up very well, linking others and his movement is still top notch.

So many times when Rooneys having a bad game, he fails to do even the basics right - and thats what is fustrating.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Comparing Rooney to his contemporaries...

Toni Kroos: 24 games: 6 goals, 8 assists
Marco Reus: 27 games: 10 goals, 9 assists
Juan Mata: 27 games: 10 goals, 10 assists

And this is during an underwhelming season for him.

Stats aren't everything. Mata has been better than Rooney this season, easily. And this hasn't been an underwelming season for Rooney either.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Right, for the benefit of those of us who, for whatever reason, can not merely take it as undeniable fact, what is the actual justification for the claim that Van Persie is the superior player?

It can not be goals, because Rooney is effectively as prolific.
It can not be assists, because Rooney creates more.
It can not be passing, because Rooney attempts far more passes with a higher completion rate.
It can not be consistency, because Van Persie is presently in a slump as bad as any Rooney has had in recent years.

The Dutchman has a better first touch and is more prone to a dribble, and also he has never insulted the club in a contract situation, not this club at least. That seems to be the entirety of the substantiable claim.

Van Persie just provides a better package for me. He does everything with more class than Rooney. You say Rooney creates more but Van Persie was among the top chance creators last season and Rooney was nowhere near the top. Even this season he's just got one less proper assist as compared to Rooney. Not to mention he outscored him in recent times too mostly for a lesser team.

Rooney is a much more hit and miss player. Whether it's first touch, through pass, whatever. Rooney's touch and ability to make short passes just seems to go every now and then. Van Persie just has more natural ability at these things I reckon. The weight of his passes seem more effortless and his close control and ability to create openings through his technical ability set him apart IMO.

And moreover, if you want someone to win you a game through a moment of brilliance I'd bank of RVP anyday. He's got that knack of producing momence of brilliance that Rooney often doesn't.

 

[Brwned]

I can see what he is saying but I wouldn't have thought a comparison about Rooney being better technically than Gerrard was the best.

Do many people think it's debatable about who's the better technically?

 

[Zen86]

There's some serious delusion on this forum about RVP, perhaps inevitable with him being a new signing (Good god can people remember the utter shite spouted about Tevez), but very tiresome nonetheless.

He's been shocking in a number of his recent performances, and that's fine, it happens to absolutely everyone (except Messi) at one time or another.

I don't know how on earth you can describe any of RVP's performances this season as 'shocking'.

 

[Platato]

Thats because currently though his all round game is still very good, hes just having a bit of a mare in his shooting.

He is still holding the ball up very well, linking others and his movement is still top notch.

So many times when Rooneys having a bad game, he fails to do even the basics right - and thats what is fustrating.

Correct.

 

[adexkola]

Stats aren't everything. Mata has been better than Rooney this season, easily. And this hasn't been an underwelming season for Rooney either.

Stats aren't everything, but it puts our opinions in context. Yes, Mata has been better than Rooney this season.

And this season has been up and down for Rooney. That he's managed to keep pace (statistically) with other players acknowledged to be on top of their games, and he's being criticized? That should say something.

 

[Art]

And moreover, if you want someone to win you a game through a moment of brilliance I'd bank of RVP anyday. He's got that knack of producing momence of brilliance that Rooney often doesn't.

fecking bollocks.

Its these moments of brilliance that contribute to his stats every season irrespective of the inconsistent performances he has. RVP through 90 minutes of a single game will do the right things, find these spaces show his class and then score a goal that is deserving of all his effort during that game. Rooney will have a shite first half , frustrate us all and then go on to play like a man possessed, the Norwich game for instance comes to mind. Both of his assists to kagawa and his goal at the end.

If anything, Rooney has more moments of brilliance than consistently great games unlike RVP whose game through 90 minutes is more consistent than Rooney is.

In the end their statistics end up looking the same in terms of contributions.

 

[Platato]

Moments of brilliance is a bit much art. Let's just go with moments of quality and call it a day. His assists to Kagawa weren't brilliant imo. They were good quality touches to give Kagawa a chance of scoring. I agree though. He's more of a highlights player to me. That's perhaps why he sticks out more in some matches.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

fecking bollocks.

Its these moments of brilliance that contribute to his stats every season irrespective of the inconsistent performances he has. RVP through 90 minutes of a single game will do the right things, find these spaces show his class and then score a goal that is deserving of all his effort during that game. Rooney will have a shite first half , frustrate us all and then go on to play like a man possessed, the Norwich game for instance comes to mind. Both of his assists to kagawa and his goal at the end.

If anything, Rooney has more moments of brilliance than consistently great games unlike RVP whose game through 90 minutes is more consistent than Rooney is.

In the end their statistics end up looking the same in terms of contributions.

Rvp has more moments of brilliance and is more consistent in his general play. I don't see how anyone can watch the premier league over the last two years and think Rooney had as many of those moments as Rvp. This guy has been doing brilliant things every other week in that period, Rooney hasn't whilst still being quite effective.

In the end, it's not all about stats (although Rvp I think has outscored him and created more chances in the last two seasons as well) or Lampard would be better than iniesta and Gomez as good as the best strikers.

 

[adexkola]

Lampard is close to Iniesta though. (Not now, at their respective peaks)

 

[Zen86]

Rvp has more moments of brilliance and is more consistent in his general play. I don't see how anyone can watch the premier league over the last two years and think Rooney had as many of those moments as Rvp. This guy has been doing brilliant things every other week in that period, Rooney hasn't whilst still being quite effective.

In the end, it's not all about stats (although Rvp I think has outscored him and created more chances in the last two seasons as well) or Lampard would be better than iniesta and Gomez as good as the best strikers.

The sad thing is, it really is all about stats (on here at least). I have my doubts whether some of these people even watch our games.

Lampard is close to Iniesta though. (Not now, at their respective peaks)

Exhibit A

 

[adexkola]

feck off you wanker.

 

[Brwned]

Indeed, when you see Rooney do this and yet hear people complain about Rooney's technique it does make you wonder what games they're watching. It's almost as if they're more interested in watching/remembering Rooney's poor games. Of course the numbers are in favour of Rooney too so we have to pretend they're actually not at all important, it's all about these intangibles that Rooney's so sorely lacking in.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

do you actually believe that?

I was just going to respond to your other post by saying that it seems as though you're looking for reasons to praise Rooney really. How does it matter if Rooney had kept up statistically with the likes of mata when your admitting he hasn't been as good? It's not like some sort of bonus. Surely the only thing that matters is actually how good you've been? Unless there's new evidence that counters that conclusions, that'd s different matter.

 

[Zen86]

feck off you wanker.