It is insane. One of the best forwards in the world is expendable from one of the biggest clubs in the world.
Wayne Rooney | 2012-14 Performances
- Thread starter gooDevil
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Not too insane as he hasn't played very well this season and yet we have a solid 15 point lead.
I'm perhaps overly critical of him, but the fact is that he hasn't improved like a lot thought he would, and I honestly don't see him as amongst the very best - not this season at least. Even last season when he scored a lot of goals, his link-up play was average at best.
He does, however, have an effect on the team that seems to inspire other teammates, but I don't think he is indispensable from the team anymore.
Most PL players are capable of 'outrageous touches' every so often, so it's hardly a strength of his. His passing isn't particularly spectacular either and he certainly isn't an 'all round awesome player'.
He is a good finisher though.
Do you think that Kagawa is or is going to be much worse than Rooney in the position behind the striker? The wankathon of Dortmund was much about Kagawa when he played in that position. He is quicker, more technical and just as intelligent in his game. He lacks Rooney's strength, but even that seems to be going downhill for Rooney as he now struggles to hold off defenders, which he was top class at, even if he has never been the biggest.
And I think most of us agree that RVP is the better striker of the two, so he is replacable in that position.
Not sure why I'm surprised in fairness, people took Giggsy for granted when he was going through a bad patch a decade ago too. We heard it all before. "Not as good as he was at 17/18, doesn't have the same explosive physique, doesn't have the enthusiasm he once did". Just one of those things.
Basically, you can be a reactionary fool like above or you can just listen to Plech.
Basically, you can be a reactionary fool like above or you can just listen to Plech.
With the arrival of RvP, no, he's not indispensable to the team, but he's a few years younger than him and will likely be at the top level for longer. He still has very good stats this season and during any dry spells RvP had, Rooney was the one scoring most of the goals. He's hardly had a bad season and him and RvP have linked up very well together at times.
I still believe Rooney is one of the best forwards in the world, he has been for years and getting rid of him just makes no sense to me.
Think back to the game against Madrid at the Bernabéu, before the game it was Rooney and not RvP that the Marca identified as Madrid's biggest threat. Marca billed him as "El Coco" – Madrids bogey man – and described him as a "barrel packed with gunpowder"
RvP had scored 23 goals for us in all comps at this point, yet it was Rooney they feared.
Obviously the way he was used meant he wasn't our biggest threat and the day after the game their reaction was: "Wayne Rooney - the man sacrificed"
In El País it was described like this: "With five minutes to go, Ferguson took him off, shattered. Not one shot on goal, but the stats show that he had run 10,395 metres, so Ferguson patted him on those broad, deckhand's shoulders. The superstar, a worker."
After the game Diego Lopez was quick to praise the the quality of Rooney's corner taking, suggesting that's what caused them the problems.
It's not just some of our fans, our press here are on his back a lot of the time too - esp in regard to England. For some reason it seems that others appreciate him much more than we do.
I bolded the superstar bit because it seems that he's not considered of that calibre here yet he is elsewhere.
RvP had scored 23 goals for us in all comps at this point, yet it was Rooney they feared.
Obviously the way he was used meant he wasn't our biggest threat and the day after the game their reaction was: "Wayne Rooney - the man sacrificed"
In El País it was described like this: "With five minutes to go, Ferguson took him off, shattered. Not one shot on goal, but the stats show that he had run 10,395 metres, so Ferguson patted him on those broad, deckhand's shoulders. The superstar, a worker."
After the game Diego Lopez was quick to praise the the quality of Rooney's corner taking, suggesting that's what caused them the problems.
It's not just some of our fans, our press here are on his back a lot of the time too - esp in regard to England. For some reason it seems that others appreciate him much more than we do.
I bolded the superstar bit because it seems that he's not considered of that calibre here yet he is elsewhere.
Not sure why I'm surprised in fairness, people took Giggsy for granted when he was going through a bad patch a decade ago too. We heard it all before. "Not as good as he was at 17/18, doesn't have the same explosive physique, doesn't have the enthusiasm he once did". Just one of those things.
Basically, you can be a reactionary fool like above or you can just listen to Plech.
It's the truth though, whether it's relevant is another point. Not for me, because it's a truth that most great players have had to face at one point. Even Pelé & Maradona were far more direct in their younger years, scoring more goals, etc. compared to their peaks. Same is true for Messi, he never stopped running before Guardiola and he paid the price with recurring muscle injuries. It's a logical evolution and a necessary one for great players, to keep evolving, to transition from youthful exuberance into elder statesmanship as they say. It's also a debate about peak brilliance vs. long-term consistency, in that regard the latter is always preferable for any top team I would suppose, even though the flashes of brilliance tend to stick into the back of people's minds longer.
Oh, he is still an excellent player of course. That said, I've never seen a really heralded attacking player, particularly a #10 who can get away without being technically brilliant. I mean - Rooney is a top player, I was just speaking in the context of the very best. People have often bracketed him as some sort of footballing great, and for me, you just cannot begin to be one without a certain level of grace and ability on the ball, at least of you play Rooney's position/role. This has nothing to do with the Spanish either, they are not the first lot to produce excellent technicians.
How a player goes about being effective is certainly relevant in measuring greatness. Which is why Drogba and Ronaldo(Brazil) are on different planets. At the end of the day, it's not that hard to find a striker who is productive. Many players can score goals. Mario Gomez can score 30 goals in a season, which is great. Now someone like Ronaldo, despite being several levels above him, is hardly going to score 100 himself. In theory, given the gap in ability between the two players, logic would suggest that 'Gomez can score 30 goals a season, then Ronaldo should score 100', but it doesn't work like that. Even the best is only going to be so productive, and there will always be far inferior players who can boast similar effectiveness. The only wayy to observe that Ronaldo was several levels above Gomez (or any equivalent) is just by watching them. Rooney is not a footballing great solely because his ability is too limited for him to be one. He is probably close in terms of productivity to many greats though. As is Inzaghi.
As for Gerrard, he is a great midfield player, but it is more 'acceptable' for him to be referred to as a 'brilliant all-round player', given he is a central midfielder and that is his role. He is not in the team to provide the fantasy per se. He has to be able to pass, tackle, shoot, block, cross etc. Rooney is expected to be the spark in his team, and as far as the great 'sparks' of the game go, the difference when watching them and Rooney is stark.
Excellently put.
The big problem is that people think that technique = first touch + dribbling when it's so much more. The former is important of course, but Rooney's isn't half as bad as most try to make out (even though it's not good when he's off form), and the latter isn't a necessity really, loads of brilliant players aren't good at dribbling. To suggest that Rooney isn't technically very gifted is bonkers in my opinion.
It's an overemphasis on "looking silky on the ball", which leads to the overrating of players like Berbatov, and underrating of players like Lampard.
My only gripe with Wayne atm is that I think he is slacking off too much.
There are just way too many games where he is out of form or just doesn't look interested and lately he looked just plain unfit in some games.
I think it's also the reason why he is getting dropped so often as of late because he isn't giving 100% most of the time and probably not only not on the field but also in training and we all know how much SAF hates players slacking off in training.
There are just way too many games where he is out of form or just doesn't look interested and lately he looked just plain unfit in some games.
I think it's also the reason why he is getting dropped so often as of late because he isn't giving 100% most of the time and probably not only not on the field but also in training and we all know how much SAF hates players slacking off in training.
I thought you were in your early 20's. You bang on as if you're an old timer thats had to put up with people being wrong for too long now. Let's not forget the many times you've been wrong yourself.Brwned's right though
It must get insanely annoying for Brwned, that every time he brings up something from before his time, he gets some poster saying 'but you're only 20 something'!
As long as he's correct in what he's saying, does it really matter?
As long as he's correct in what he's saying, does it really matter?
He's only in his 20s?
I thought he was some middle aged don whose views should be listened to.
Now we know the truth!
20s! What does he know!
I thought he was some middle aged don whose views should be listened to.
Now we know the truth!
20s! What does he know!
Yeah but touch and dribbling do set you apart as an attacker. There's a reason why the best players in the world tend to also be have a fantastic touch and ability to manoeuvre the ball under pressure.
That's a different debate and I'm not sure I completely agree with you. The only thing I was responding to was people saying he's not good technically, which is a bit crazy in my opinion.
He's obviously very good technically, you don't strike a ball as well as he does without having great technique. He just isn't particularly creative with his dribbling anymore, but the technique is there. He somehow loses his ability to properly use that technique when in bad form which probably makes people think he isn't particularly blessed technically.
This is nonsense. If Fergie hadn't mentioned that once, people wouldn't even mention it all the time. You can't be that unfit if you can run 10k+ meters in around 65 odd minutes away to Madrid. And he's hardly getting dropped "often". He was dropped against Madrid and that was more tactical than anything else so let's not just make our own theories about his lack of fitness and sharpness. I honestly think if RvP continues his below par form form for the rest of the season and Rooney continues to quietly go about scoring crucial goals for us, people will again have a little shift in their opinions of Rooney.
I can see what he is saying but I wouldn't have thought a comparison about Rooney being better technically than Gerrard was the best.
I've given up on trying to put some sense into some people.
A player will never be good enough if you generaly dislike him. (aimed at no one person in particular)
A player will never be good enough if you generaly dislike him. (aimed at no one person in particular)
You can't make it in an elite team without having a minimum first touch and dribbling standard. As long as you're in that band you should be fine. There's a reason why street ballers don't play pro football.
Rooney is more productive than many of the great number tens of the last 20 years or so.
Don't bother. Apparently it's just stats with Rooney that are good.
Oh right, it was stats I was going to refer to. The fact that he scored more goals in a season than certain other players have ever done..
How did Rooney acquire such stats?? surely not on the football pitch
This this this this. We go in cycles about Rooney but this really is the crux. It's not just him though. It's happened with other players in the past as well.
Very true. When he's on his game, his intelligence certainly comes to the fore. In fact, it's his enthusiasm for the game and the ability to apply this intelligence effectively which gives rise to why he is lauded. Also, as you said, he has improved his finishing.
What does it for me is his inconsistency. IMO, his improvements have made him a very moments type of player. He doesn't really do anything special throughout the match but if he's playing well, you'll get a couple of quality plays from him that result in helping the team win. I think his stats support that. I can only think of a couple performances this season where he was great throughout the whole match. Other times, he would occasionally pop up with an assist or a goal.
However, I don't see how he is the heartbeat of this side. I don't see how he is the most important player in this team. I don't see him as the player that we always miss out on because he too goes missing in games too. We have won games without him yet some posters conveniently forget this. The truth is in my eyes, we don't have a heartbeat in this squad. The closest one is Carrick because he basically is our midfield at the moment (bar good spell with Cleverley).
This question of whether or not we miss Rooney is completely contingent on, as another post said, which Rooney shows up. Because if it's anything like his performance against Chelsea at OT, then we're not missing much.
Interesting post.
I'm torn regarding how we'd do without Rooney. I mostly think we'd really realise how important he was and how quickly we'd bemoan his departure but there are a couple of things to discuss. On the one hand I think Rooney's departure would trigger a real step up in Danny Welbeck and Kagawa, and that Welbeck in particular needs something like that to really kickstart his rise towards being a top class player. At the same time though, I think Rooney's one of the few players in our team that will consistently come short and look for the ball anywhere near the required levels for us to play quality football. Van Persie has fluctuated in this regard (although to be fair to him he is usually the furthest forward), Valencia is looking more and more sheepish, Young is actually scared of the ball and doesn't want it, Anderson will bizarrely point at other players and tell the player in possession to give them the ball even when he's open, etc...
As stupid as it sounds, Rooney tends to visibly want the ball. He sometimes doesn't look like he wants it when he actually gets it mind (sloppy initial touches), but we look better with him in the team because of this. That's obviously before discussing the overall contribution he brings to the table in terms gret, passhun, desire, etc and productivity, but I think that's what we'd miss most. Kagawa looks about half as interested in getting on the ball as he did at Dortmund in my opinion, although that's most likely because he spent most of the start of the season in quality areas watching the ball getting pinged out to inferior players on the wing.
As stupid as it sounds, Rooney tends to visibly want the ball. He sometimes doesn't look like he wants it when he actually gets it mind (sloppy initial touches), but we look better with him in the team because of this. That's obviously before discussing the overall contribution he brings to the table in terms gret, passhun, desire, etc and productivity, but I think that's what we'd miss most. Kagawa looks about half as interested in getting on the ball as he did at Dortmund in my opinion, although that's most likely because he spent most of the start of the season in quality areas watching the ball getting pinged out to inferior players on the wing.
The thing with Rooney is that, there are certain matches where he absolutely goes missing. We have seen it over the years. I remember last season, where he went almost 10 matches without scoring. Even in this season, he took a while before getting in the groove.
Sounds familiar...
Who is talking about a "minimum" standard? And who is saying he isn't fine? He's a quality player, one of the best in England. I'm just saying that the very best tend to have a great first touch and ability to manipulate the ball.
Valencia makes it into an elite team too. Do we not think Mata's technical ability sets him apart from Valencia? Or does it no matter because they're both passed the "minimum" standard mark and after that it's irrelevant.
Slightly off topic but this is one of the most frustrating things about Anderson and its one of the reasons Cleverley gets praise because as soon as Cleverley makes a pass he runs into space and his arms are outstretched demanding the ball back whereas Anderson will be casually strolling pointing to who you should pass to when he's available or bizarrely running into traffic thus making himself unavailable. /rant.
I think it's part of Rooney's character that when he's not playing fantastically he doesn't shy away. I think back to Sunderland at home earlier in the season for an example where Rooney could have or should have had 3 or 4 easy goals in the first half alone but his shooting was erratic. It looked like it was going to be be of those days for him but he didn't shy away, still wanted the ball all the time and whilst it was only a tap-in he persevered and got his goal in the end.
I struggle to understand when people here say he looks like he can't be arsed. I've rarely seen this. The odd poor touch and wayward pass yes but I never think he looks disinterested. He doesn't go missing, he is always involved and when he does something wrong he looks genuinely disappointed with himself but then puts it out of his mind and gets back in the game. It's why he can have a relatively poor game and still pop up and score us the winner. He doesn't hang his head down or hide when the game isn't going right he sticks at it and usually is rewarded in the end.
And yet he still scored only 3 goals less than RvP last season.
And this season when he wasn't scoring he was top of the assists charts so to say he went missing is an exaggeration. He's still only currently 1 assist below mata who is top.
Seems that the general consensus here is that this has been a relatively poor season for Rooney (whether injury rested or otherwise) when actually in terms of goals and assists he's averaging one every seventy-odd mins which is his best ever rate in the PL.
Not saying he's played a blinder every game but he has quietly gone about his business and is contributing to the team with his goals and assists.
This aspect of his is severely underrated in the caf. Invaluable.
Personally I think its been a perfectly acceptable season, especially when you consider that so far its two seasons in a row without any (self inflicted at least) negative off field issues and I don't think many would disagree, I think the issues are more between the "Rooney is only behind Messi and and Ronaldo and is irreplaceable" brigade and those of us who think he's not THAT good or irreplaceable.
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