Wayne Rooney | 2012-14 Performances

[Adam-Utd]

And yet he still scored only 3 goals less than RvP last season.
And this season when he wasn't scoring he was top of the assists charts so to say he went missing is an exaggeration. He's still only currently 1 assist below mata who is top.

Seems that the general consensus here is that this has been a relatively poor season for Rooney (whether injury rested or otherwise) when actually in terms of goals and assists he's averaging one every seventy-odd mins which is his best ever rate in the PL.

Not saying he's played a blinder every game but he has quietly gone about his business and is contributing to the team with his goals and assists.

Thats the weird thing though. Often this year i have been left feeling fustrated with Rooney, but in terms of goals/assists per minutes on the pitch its his best by far i believe?.

Hes managed to create something every game, even though the rest of them 88 minutes or so has been below his usual standards. Funny how it works isnt it.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Thats the weird thing though. Often this year i have been left feeling fustrated with Rooney, but in terms of goals/assists per minutes on the pitch its his best by far i believe?.

Hes managed to create something every game, even though the rest of them 88 minutes or so has been below his usual standards. Funny how it works isnt it.

Well he scored 34 goals last season despite the majority of people agreeing that his overall game wasn't great. His best spell in years, oddly enough was in the 10/11 run in where I don't think his overall productivity was as high as in 11/12 or this season. Also in 09/10, he scored shitloads as the lone striker, but again, his overall game was limited because he was in that role so much.

It's the sign of a top player when you're delivering stats like that so consistently, even when not at your best.

 

[Chabon]

Forget all the other stats, here's a simple one for you, admittedly based on some quick back of a fag packet calculations (figuratively speaking).

Robin Van Persie has played almost exclusively as a number 9 this season and averaged a premier league goal every 131 minutes.

Wayne Rooney has played almost exclusively as a number 10 this season and averaged a premier league goal every 132 minutes.

 

[Zen86]

Forget all the other stats, here's a simple one for you, admittedly based on some quick back of a fag packet calculations (figuratively speaking).

Robin Van Persie has played almost exclusively as a number 9 this season and averaged a premier league goal every 131 minutes.

Wayne Rooney has played almost exclusively as a number 10 this season and averaged a premier league goal every 132 minutes.

So?

 

[Chabon]

So this:

And I think most of us agree that RVP is the better striker of the two, so he is replacable in that position.

and all the similar sentiment, is bollocks.

 

[Zen86]

So this:



and all the similar sentiment, is bollocks.

How does it? Does that statistic make Rooney irreplaceable?

 

[I'm always right]

So this:

and all the similar sentiment, is bollocks.

Because of those stats? how so?

 

[AttackingFlair]

The thing with Rooney is that, there are certain matches where he absolutely goes missing. We have seen it over the years. I remember last season, where he went almost 10 matches without scoring. Even in this season, he took a while before getting in the groove.

That's because his position was being messed about despite his superb start to the season.. We had injuries in midfield so Rooney played there. He soon picked up goal scoring form playing as a number 10. He didn't go missing in them games either, he was either our best player or one of our best players despite playing cm.

 

[Chabon]

Because of those stats? how so?

Because there's not really any basis for claiming RVP is a better striker when Rooney is on a par with him in goalscoring and outstrips him at everything else, and certainly not for having the confidence to state that it is something with which "most of us agree".

 

[Andrew~]

Forget all the other stats, here's a simple one for you, admittedly based on some quick back of a fag packet calculations (figuratively speaking).

Robin Van Persie has played almost exclusively as a number 9 this season and averaged a premier league goal every 131 minutes.

Wayne Rooney has played almost exclusively as a number 10 this season and averaged a premier league goal every 132 minutes.

Van Persie has a larger sample size, so naturally his average would fall. But, that being said, I don't think Rooney is a worse finisher than Van Persie; he's shown it quite often that when it comes to getting goals, he's top notch.

However, I think Van Persie is better technically, and can dig you out of a whole more than Rooney can with a piece of magic - as he has done all season. Van Persie is better, but the gap isn't exactly worth talking about. It's just you Rooney fanatics who are getting annoying with your love-in and can't give a balanced account.

 

[coolredwine]

And yet he still scored only 3 goals less than RvP last season.
And this season when he wasn't scoring he was top of the assists charts so to say he went missing is an exaggeration. He's still only currently 1 assist below mata who is top.

Seems that the general consensus here is that this has been a relatively poor season for Rooney (whether injury rested or otherwise) when actually in terms of goals and assists he's averaging one every seventy-odd mins which is his best ever rate in the PL.

Not saying he's played a blinder every game but he has quietly gone about his business and is contributing to the team with his goals and assists.

Yes, but while van Persie was consistently giving the same level of performances on the field, Rooney's was fluctuating during the course of the season. He had a 10 match and a 5-6 match goalless run in the League last season. while scoring the rest of his goals in bunches (2 hattricks, 5 braces). Not berating him or anything, just saying that his performance graph keeps dipping high and low during a season.

 

[coolredwine]

That's because his position was being messed about despite his superb start to the season.. We had injuries in midfield so Rooney played there. He soon picked up goal scoring form playing as a number 10. He didn't go missing in them games either, he was either our best player or one of our best players despite playing cm.

He played as a CM I think once or twice after the 1-6 loss against Citeh ( ). Against Everton and Sunderland, I think. In the rest, he was back up top.

 

[Chabon]

However, I think Van Persie is better technically, and can dig you out of a whole more than Rooney can with a piece of magic - as he has done all season. Van Persie is better, but the gap isn't exactly worth talking about. It's just you Rooney fanatics who are getting annoying with your love-in and can't give a balanced account.

As per usual, when arguing Van Persie is the better player the justification is based on utterly loose and vague claims. I'm not any kind of Rooney 'fanatic', I just recognise that he's the best player we have, and like to point out how pitiful the claims of the people who downplay his contribution really are.

edit: I mean, just look at the claims above about barren runs. In reality Rooney had one eight game goalless streak last season, and his next longest was two whole games. As per usual, people don't like to let facts get in the way of slagging off our best player.

 

[Zen86]

Yes we know, your mind blowing statistic clearly blew that argument out of the water.

 

[Andrew~]

As per usual, when arguing Van Persie is the better player the justification is based on utterly loose and vague claims. I'm not any kind of Rooney 'fanatic', I just recognise that he's the best player we have, and like to point out how pitiful the claims of the people who downplay his contribution really are.

Loose? There was a table recently on whoscored (can't be bothered to look) which stated that Van Persie's goals have won us more points than any other player in the league, and he contributes to something like 20% of our goals. There is nothing 'vague' about the goal he scored against Fulham, basically out of nothing; or the hattrick against Southampton away when we were struggling the entire game.

I'm not arguing that Rooney should be sold or that he's not top class. But he quite obviously is not our best player. Is he one of our best players? Definitely.

 

[LR7]

Yes, but while van Persie was consistently giving the same level of performances on the field, Rooney's was fluctuating during the course of the season. He had a 10 match and a 5-6 match goalless run in the League last season. while scoring the rest of his goals in bunches (2 hattricks, 5 braces). Not berating him or anything, just saying that his performance graph keeps dipping high and low during a season.

You are taking a very one dimensional view in RvPs favour when what you're suggesting isn't actually true. RvPs performance graph isn't the same all this season either, it's dropped off a fair bit since around Feb and there is no point denying it. He isn't currently in the same form that he was in earlier in the season. An Arsenal fan in the RvP thread a few weeks ago also said he tailed off towards the end of last season too scoring one in seven games or something similar..
SAF has also recently commented about RvPs current dip in form so it's recognised.

 

[LR7]

So much overreaction in here. Chabon's stat was basically suggesting that Rooney and Robin have an almost exact goals/minute ratio this season (as well as scoring a similar number of PL goals last season 27 and 30 respectively) so there is actually very little between them when people try to make it out like there is a gulf between them in terms of productivity when there isn't.

 

[coolredwine]

You are taking a very one dimensional view in RvPs favour when what you're suggesting isn't actually true. RvPs performance graph isn't the same all this season either, it's dropped off a fair bit since around Feb and there is no point denying it. He isn't currently in the same form that he was in earlier in the season. An Arsenal fan in the RvP thread a few weeks ago also said he tailed off towards the end of last season too scoring one in seven games or something similar..
SAF has also recently commented about RvPs current dip in form so it's recognised.

I have no idea where he got that stat from, but he was scoring regularly even at the end of the last season.

 

[Chabon]

There was a table recently on whoscored (can't be bothered to look) which stated that Van Persie's goals have won us more points than any other player in the league, and he contributes to something like 20% of our goals.

I'm skeptical of the idea, but it was 22 points, and despite having played considerably less Rooney would now be up to third on that table with 16.

 

[wr8_utd]

I have no idea where he got that stat from, but he was scoring regularly even at the end of the last season.

Not true. He went through a run from mid March to mid April where he scored one goal (one goal in a routine 3-0 win) in 7 matches in the PL. Infact he went through a run of just 4 goals in his last 10 PL games whereas Rooney got 7 in his last 10. Rooney just had the one run of 8 games in the PL where he went without scoring.

 

[LR7]

I have no idea where he got that stat from, but he was scoring regularly even at the end of the last season.

https://www.redcafe.net/13154317-post7090.html

Either way the point still stands. His 'performance chart' is hardly consistent this season is it?

 

[Chabon]

I remember around early March stating that Van Persie was in the best form any player ever had been in the PL (and getting a bit of abuse for the claim) and then he completely stopped doing anything at all until May.

Hopefully Sir Alex takes a note of this and rotates him more in the first half of next season. Although I suppose we didn't have much choice this season, with Kagawa, Rooney and Nani all competing for 'most injured 2012'.

 

[LR7]

I remember around early March stating that Van Persie was in the best form any player ever had been in the PL (and getting a bit of abuse for the claim) and then he completely stopped doing anything at all until May.

Hopefully Sir Alex takes a note of this and rotates him more in the first half of next season. Although I suppose we didn't have much choice this season, with Kagawa, Rooney and Nani all competing for 'most injured 2012'.

Hernandez, Rooney, Robin and Kagawa are all capable of scoring a lot of goals and surely we can find different combinations with out Robin playing almost every league game and getting worn out by Feb. Hernandez only has 6 starts which is quite surprising because he's not been out with injury either, surely he can share some of the burden, he hasn't let us down at all this season.

 

[Rossa]

Because there's not really any basis for claiming RVP is a better striker when Rooney is on a par with him in goalscoring and outstrips him at everything else, and certainly not for having the confidence to state that it is something with which "most of us agree".

Where does Rooney outstrip RVP on everything else? His passing isn't better, his technique is certainly worse. He is hardly faster anymore either and he can't dribble any better. He no longer appears to have more body strength either. His vision may be better, but that is seriously hampered by his short passing, so for me RVP wins that too.

There isn't much between them, but RVP has shown that Rooney isn't indispensable anymore - nor did I ever think he was. If we can survive without Ronaldo, we can survive without Rooney who is an inferior player to him.

Also, stats only tell half the truth; if you had compared their stats one month ago, their results would be very different. Let's wait till the end of the season before comparing stats, and even then stats only tell half the picture. People still think Lampard is an all time better player than Scholes because of his superior goal scoring stats.

 

[OnlyTwoDaSilvas]

Why does it always have to be a RVP vs Rooney debate on who is better, who is the least dispensable and who is the better finisher etc? We are in a very blessed position to boast two strikers are revered as RVP and Rooney, as well as other dangerous players in our squad. We never seemed to have Rooney Vs Tevez or Rooney vs Saha debates. Both of those were good partnerships, but when it comes to Rooney and RVP, we don't seem to want to judge them as a partnership, but always who is better at this and that. I don't understand why it is a battle between the two, and anyone taking either side is a fanboy or an apologist or whatever. Both are great players with evident limits, both offer certain traits that the other doesn't, and it's a shame Rooney has been injured as often as he has, because when they play together, they look like they are forming a very positive relationship. I can't think of many teams in the world who have a more formidable striking duo than what we have, so why the contest? Both are bleedin' marvelous, and both play for us. Brilliant.

 

[Chabon]

Right, for the benefit of those of us who, for whatever reason, can not merely take it as undeniable fact, what is the actual justification for the claim that Van Persie is the superior player?

It can not be goals, because Rooney is effectively as prolific.
It can not be assists, because Rooney creates more.
It can not be passing, because Rooney attempts far more passes with a higher completion rate.
It can not be consistency, because Van Persie is presently in a slump as bad as any Rooney has had in recent years.

The Dutchman has a better first touch and is more prone to a dribble, and also he has never insulted the club in a contract situation, not this club at least. That seems to be the entirety of the substantiable claim.

 

[LR7]

Right, for the benefit of those of us who, for whatever reason, can not merely take it as undeniable fact, what is the actual justification for the claim that Van Persie is the superior player?

It can not be goals, because Rooney is effectively as prolific.
It can not be assists, because Rooney creates more.
It can not be passing, because Rooney attempts far more passes with a higher completion rate.
It can not be consistency, because Van Persie is presently in a slump as bad as any Rooney has had in recent years.

The Dutchman has a better first touch and is more prone to a dribble, and also he has never insulted the club in a contract situation, not this club at least. That seems to be the entirety of the substantiable claim.

Rooney doesn't sparkle enough. Duh!

 

[Sparky_Hughes]

Quite honestly who gives a flying feck who is "better". Its not a factual title, its all opinion and as they both play for us anyway it really doesn't matter. This got old about 40 pages back.

 

[coolredwine]

Not true. He went through a run from mid March to mid April where he scored one goal (one goal in a routine 3-0 win) in 7 matches in the PL. Infact he went through a run of just 4 goals in his last 10 PL games whereas Rooney got 7 in his last 10. Rooney just had the one run of 8 games in the PL where he went without scoring.

https://www.redcafe.net/13154317-post7090.html

Either way the point still stands. His 'performance chart' is hardly consistent this season is it?

Goals wise, no. Performance wise, yes.

Even when his goals "dried up" last season, he was still a very vital member in the Arsenal team. When he doesn't plays well (or scoring goals), he still tries to bring in other players and opens up the defense. Rooney, on the other hand, when not playing well, shrugs, throws his arms around, his passes are misplaced. I think we all know that.

I know people will try and bring in the current drop in form for RvP, but if you see the game closely enough, as soon as he is pressed, or closed down, he still tries to find out space for other attackers (read wingers). He is still a threat to the opposition defense.

 

[Rossa]

Quite honestly who gives a flying feck who is "better". Its not a factual title, its all opinion and as they both play for us anyway it really doesn't matter. This got old about 40 pages back.

True, but one someone goes on and on about Rooney being our best player, period end of discussion, then one must be allowed to disagree with that. This season, I think RVP, Rafael and Carrick has been better and imo Evra and Rio have probably been better too (probably DDG too come to think of it, although they can hardly be compared as such). Therefore, I think it is fair to say that he isn't indispensable.

I rather that we keep both, but imo RVP is the better striker - he doesn't give the ball away as much and seems a better finisher to me, bar the last month or two (the man needs a breather!). Stats may show what you want them to show, but there is no denying Rooney's stats - he's a terrific player, but I think he gives the ball away too much and has lost a bit of his edge.

 

[Rozay]

So much overreaction in here. Chabon's stat was basically suggesting that Rooney and Robin have an almost exact goals/minute ratio this season (as well as scoring a similar number of PL goals last season 27 and 30 respectively) so there is actually very little between them when people try to make it out like there is a gulf between them in terms of productivity when there isn't.

What are your opinions on my post below?

Oh, he is still an excellent player of course. That said, I've never seen a really heralded attacking player, particularly a #10 who can get away without being technically brilliant. I mean - Rooney is a top player, I was just speaking in the context of the very best. People have often bracketed him as some sort of footballing great, and for me, you just cannot begin to be one without a certain level of grace and ability on the ball, at least of you play Rooney's position/role. This has nothing to do with the Spanish either, they are not the first lot to produce excellent technicians.

How a player goes about being effective is certainly relevant in measuring greatness. Which is why Drogba and Ronaldo(Brazil) are on different planets. At the end of the day, it's not that hard to find a striker who is productive. Many players can score goals. Mario Gomez can score 30 goals in a season, which is great. Now someone like Ronaldo, despite being several levels above him, is hardly going to score 100 himself. In theory, given the gap in ability between the two players, logic would suggest that 'Gomez can score 30 goals a season, then Ronaldo should score 100', but it doesn't work like that. Even the best is only going to be so productive, and there will always be far inferior players who can boast similar effectiveness. The only wayy to observe that Ronaldo was several levels above Gomez (or any equivalent) is just by watching them. Rooney is not a footballing great solely because his ability is too limited for him to be one. He is probably close in terms of productivity to many greats though. As is Inzaghi.

As for Gerrard, he is a great midfield player, but it is more 'acceptable' for him to be referred to as a 'brilliant all-round player', given he is a central midfielder and that is his role. He is not in the team to provide the fantasy per se. He has to be able to pass, tackle, shoot, block, cross etc. Rooney is expected to be the spark in his team, and as far as the great 'sparks' of the game go, the difference when watching them and Rooney is stark.

In my view, Persie is clearly better than Rooney. Not because he has scored a couple more goals either. Likewise, Messi isn't better than another striker on the basis that he scored 6 more goals in a season either.

For me it is simple. When you watch Wayne Rooney play every week, does he look like one of the best footballers in the world?

When answering such a question, goal tally is less relevant. I cited an example a few weeks back after the first Chelsea game and said that games like this occur way too frequently for Rooney. The record books will forever say Rooney 'scored' in that game, as fortuitous as the actual goal even was, but what it would not show, i that Rooney looked a million miles from a top player. He could barely control or pass the ball well, and when surrounded, he lacked the skill and invention to manouvere. Now of course, everyone can have a game like that, and it is a great asset to still leave such games with a goal. However, when many of your perfomances are not too dissimilar from such a level, then goals will not make you a world great for me.

The best players in the world (for me anyway) should look a class above most other players when they are on the pitch, not when their tally is totalled up at the end of the season. Van Persie, goal or no goal, has looked like the most talented footballer on the pitch majority of the times he has taken the field in the lat 3 seasons. Then we factor in the fact he often scores too. However, if he got 25 goals this season and so did Hernandez, we would not say 'in that case it obviouly has to come down to assist stats to see who the better footballer is'. Persie would just be better, simply because he is, well - better.

 

[gza the genius]

Basically, Rooney is less aesthetically pleasing when out of form. Which I do agree with, I have no idea how a player as good as Rooney can look so bad when he's out of form. I can't think of a single other top player that does that. When RvP is out of form he just doesn't score, the rest of his game holds up. Rooney's doesn't.

 

[wr8_utd]

When RvP is out of form and not scoring, he doesn't look that bad for the simple reason that he just doesn't get involved as much as Rooney does and doesn't try as much as him. Rooney on the other hand, even when out of form, will keep asking for the ball and try to do something with it and that's when his "poor touch" shows imo. But Rooney's also really gotten the great habit of being a serious goal threat even when out of form and being played very deep or out of position.

 

[gza the genius]

When RvP is out of form and not scoring, he doesn't look that bad for the simple reason that he just doesn't get involved as much as Rooney does and doesn't try as much as him. Rooney on the other hand, even when out of form, will keep asking for the ball and try to do something with it and that's when his "poor touch" shows imo. But Rooney's also really gotten the great habit of being a serious goal threat even when out of form and being played very deep or out of position.

That's fair, but is that necessarily a good thing? Obviously his intent is good, and you want to see a top player always demanding the ball but when he is out of form him constantly getting the ball is definitely detrimental to our play.

I can't and won't argue with any of the stats but I would like to see Rooney used purely as a striker from now on, he just isn't consistently good enough to be the creative hub of our team but he is obviously still scoring. I think had we not brought RvP in we would've seen Rooney as the lone striker more this season with Kagawa in behind him.

 

[adexkola]

Comparing Rooney to his contemporaries...

Toni Kroos: 24 games: 6 goals, 8 assists
Marco Reus: 27 games: 10 goals, 9 assists
Juan Mata: 27 games: 10 goals, 10 assists

And this is during an underwhelming season for him.

 

[Quinton Fortune]

I disagree. I actually think he's a good guy who's willing to make self-sacrifices for the team. Seems a good influence in the dressing room as well (you hear players telling of his pranks and stuff). I just don't think he's that good a player as some over here make out.

Oh come on, he's had strops with the club on several occasions and almost embarrassed our long suffering manager. In his personal life he's cheated on his GF countless times and has even done it when she was pregnant with his child.

It seems quite clear to me that Wayne is a happy and nice enough guy when things are going his way but as soon as they stop he throws his toys out the pram eg England at the World Cup.

Its things like this that mean people jump on his back when he goes out of form because hes a guy who's quite easy to dislike. You'd struggle to find people who jump on Hernandez's back so easily because he comes across as a good bloke with his heart in the right place.

If Rooney was sold tomorrow I'd not be too bothered, it would be like when we lost Keane. We'd lose a great player and most likely suffer on the pitch but we'd also get rid of someone whos a bit of an arsehole.

 

[adexkola]

Oh come on, he's had strops with the club on several occasions and almost embarrassed our long suffering manager. In his personal life he's cheated on his GF countless times and has even done it when she was pregnant with his child.

It seems quite clear to me that Wayne is a happy and nice enough guy when things are going his way but as soon as they stop he throws his toys out the pram eg England at the World Cup.

Its things like this that mean people jump on his back when he goes out of form because hes a guy who's quite easy to dislike. You'd struggle to find people who jump on Hernandez's back so easily because he comes across as a good bloke with his heart in the right place.

If Rooney was sold tomorrow I'd not be too bothered, it would be like when we lost Keane. We'd lose a great player and most likely suffer on the pitch but we'd also get rid of someone whos a bit of an arsehole.

That shouldn't matter.

 

[wr8_utd]

Oh come on, he's had strops with the club on several occasions and almost embarrassed our long suffering manager. In his personal life he's cheated on his GF countless times and has even done it when she was pregnant with his child.

It seems quite clear to me that Wayne is a happy and nice enough guy when things are going his way but as soon as they stop he throws his toys out the pram eg England at the World Cup.

Its things like this that mean people jump on his back when he goes out of form because hes a guy who's quite easy to dislike. You'd struggle to find people who jump on Hernandez's back so easily because he comes across as a good bloke with his heart in the right place.

If Rooney was sold tomorrow I'd not be too bothered, it would be like when we lost Keane. We'd lose a great player and most likely suffer on the pitch but we'd also get rid of someone whos a bit of an arsehole.

Losing Rooney would be very very different to losing Keane. The latter was pretty old and past it by the time we let him go whereas Rooney is still one of the best forwards in world football.

 

[Rozay]

I don't want Rooney to go, but wouldn't be suprised if it happens. The manager has sold big players over the years, and I think this summer is the last chance to get mega-money for Rooney. Not that that should be our transfer strategy, but I don't think Rooney is a Ryan Giggs or so who can play until his late 30s at the very top. He neither has the physique of Giggs, nor the natural talent in my view. As a result, he will be 28 this year, and I reckon he will enjoy a more traditional decline in his early 30s, and Fergie may decide this year is a decent time to move him on.

 

[finneh]

Right, for the benefit of those of us who, for whatever reason, can not merely take it as undeniable fact, what is the actual justification for the claim that Van Persie is the superior player?

It can not be goals, because Rooney is effectively as prolific.
It can not be assists, because Rooney creates more.
It can not be passing, because Rooney attempts far more passes with a higher completion rate.
It can not be consistency, because Van Persie is presently in a slump as bad as any Rooney has had in recent years.

The Dutchman has a better first touch and is more prone to a dribble, and also he has never insulted the club in a contract situation, not this club at least. That seems to be the entirety of the substantiable claim.

I don't think anyone would say RVP being a better player is an undeniable fact. Likewise only an idiot would say that Rooney being better is a "fact". For what it's worth (not much) I'd say out of all people who watch both regularly, more would say Van Persie is our best player. Irrespective of the stats it would be there opinion based on watching our matches.

One side may argue bias because Rooney has been a United player for 9 years and potentially our future highest ever goalscorer and living legend, whilst RVP played for our rivals. The other side may do likewise because Rooney is a bit of a scumbag character wise and messed the club around. Personal preference I guess.

The reason I personally prefer RVP as a player is because I believe that even off form he leads the line exceptionally well. If he had scored the 3-4 chances that he should have scored in recent weeks we'd still be saying he is in amazing all round form. The criticism has only stemmed from missing those chances, in my opinion. Rooney on the other hand I feel can look like it's his first time on a Football pitch when in bad form (failure to control simple passes, passing to an opposition player 3-4 yards in front of him and being generally hopeless) which is very frustrating. This is why I'd massively disagree with your final statement, Rooney "out of form" iin my opinion is a real sight to behold - you'd think some bald bloke from the pub had hijacked his jersey.

I personally wouldn't say that Taarabt is a far superior player to Welbeck, despite your criterion clearly illustrating that he could well be.