Joy to watch. That last run for the goal was amazing. Had to show my kids the replay.
Vinicius Junior
- Thread starter jackofalltrades
- Start date
Yes, that's what I said. I went even further in fact. For me Mbappe is not only an all-time great for the French NT, he's also borderline top 5 in a best French player ever list, counting club and international career.
My Bad!!!, somehow I thought you were the same person that said that Mbappe wasn't an all time great for France in a prior post to the one I've quoted from you...and worse I've misread the one quoted from you as a support to that prior statement (that you didn't even make)...so quite a messI believe that may be one of the reasons actually.
Obviously I could be wrong, of course, but my feeling right now and also over the last few months is not only that I don't think Vinicius has reached his prime, but also that he has considerable room for improvement until he does. He only started to play more consistently in central areas since a season ago and always seems to add new elements to his game.
Furthermore, the aura of self-sufficiency he has, the speed and variety of his finishing after dribbling at frenetic speed and the flexibility to be lethal in wide areas and as a more central striker makes me see him in a tier over Di Maria.
By the way, one could also reason from another angle and affirm that if the players around you are better, both your statistics and your chances of producing imbalances will also improve.
Was Di Maria also marked by as many defenders as Vinicius is?
Was Di Maria also marked by as many defenders as Vinicius is?
I'd put Di Maria on the same level as Figo. Don't think Vini is better than that yet. He's at that level too
You do him disservice. Particularly for a Madrid fan who saw him on the same team as Bale and being quite clearly a better player than the welshman
You do him disservice. Particularly for a Madrid fan who saw him on the same team as Bale and being quite clearly a better player than the welshman
Yet, it's easy to guess that if Vini wins the Ballon D'Or, he would instantly be considered by many in years to come on a different tier.
Di Maria navigates a complicated consideration, because playing second fiddle to many major HUGE stars during his carreer would always affect his perception, many times outshining them in matches or periods, yet at the same time he rarely would be considered in those suppose Top 5 or 10 best players of the world regularly, with the typical "was he ever considered to be the best at any point? (like Vini is nowadays)", which is a very tricky question and in his case a bit unfair. In such trend many people sees him as a player clearly below Robben, Ribery, Salah, Bale, etc etc..sthg that it's not even remotely in my view, since I don't see any major diff in talent between them and mostly style differences and ways to understand and face the game, but it's sthg that it's there.
Also It's not only his second fiddle role and demand from his coaches, but also his old guard winger style, that could be reckless or chaotic even in his best days that also affects his image, even if the majority of players in his role during his days and even in the past share that approach, with him it was more common for people to go at him because of those tendencies.
It must be said that on the other side of the coin, there has been after his many NT's clutch moments, a certain over the top consideration where many people, mostly argies and also those who always find some excuse to demerit Messi with whatever angle is avaiable, even inventing them; to make him main reason of Argentina winning titles or to put him even above someone like Di Stefano. I can get the praise in terms of titles obtained and played for the NT, yet some fellas taking it further to contest the talent and importance as a player in the history of the game of Alfredo, seems a bit too much.
So he is a case that seems would never be properly rated, I love the fecker, even when sometimes I hated his guts when he went over the top with some of his bad tendencies, I always understand those, like part of the essence of his game that makes him so great too.
PD: as a side note, Figo for me was one the best pure wingers that played the role ever, with an intelligence reserved for proper 10's, without lacking improvisation and providing the most important aspect of a winger: the best passes and crosses to his teammates in almost always an inmaculate style. Figo in such regard and combination, was sthg else, what a player.
His speed on the ball is freakish. 99% of players aren't even that fast without the ball.
Exactly, for one season.
Let's not overdo it either. In Bale's final era, OK, because he was already in retirement mode, but in his early years Bale would not have been allowed a season like the one Angelito had in 2012/13. If Florentino had had a Figo in his prime in that season he would have never considered the Welshman.
Then, obviously, Di Maria's 2013-14 was brilliant, with capital letters, but as Fobal says, his role at Madrid was never that of ultimate responsibility, that role that means if your team doesn't get the win and you have a bad game the weight of the world and several other planets will automatically be rested over your shoulders.
Yet it wasn't just 2013/14...sometimes what Angel provided in Madrid it's extremely overlooked, to the point that even at times was solely analyzed as hardworker (I remember Guti saying stuff like that).
Also when I said second fiddle, I never said it in terms of not having responsability, but because he shared the pitch with fellas like Ney, Messi, Cris in their primes, so it's harder sometimes to get proper recognition, there is always two sides for any coin.
If anything Angelito received too much criticism at times, while being actually great, even with his reckless tendencies, tendencies that BTW Vini shares.
Di Maria is one of the hardest players to properly assess due to the enviroment and timing of his carreer regarding lots of stuff, from injuries, transfers, teams involved, etc yet his capabilities, his all around game, I think that he was quiet a phenom that deserved more praise, while at the same time that lack of praise do not deserve to him be named above Di Stefano as a reaction.
PD: regarding that question of el Fideo taking on many players, yeah man, he did it, in fact sometimes he still can, even if he looses his gas way faster. But like I said before, he is more like a typical provider and creative winger that also was used as a dinamic chaotic mediapunta...while Vini it's more of a winger that his first urge is to score. Also bar Real, Di Maria is a player that even being fast and liking playing on the break with open spaces, he moves like a snake in tight spaces constantly, his worst aspect was always his decision making at moments, his mouth with no filter and his extremely street alike game, for the good and bad.
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He obviously had responsibility, as every player does. But he was not the first player fans and journalists immediately turned their faces at after two average -not even bad- games, something even a colossal Ronaldo had to suffer at Madrid.
Figo had that role.
Vinicius has that role.
Perhaps this is another aspect, in addition to those I have mentioned above, why I see Vinicius above.
Figo had that role.
Vinicius has that role.
Perhaps this is another aspect, in addition to those I have mentioned above, why I see Vinicius above.
C'mon, Figo was clearly better than both Vinícius and Di Maria. He was just on a different level of skill, intelligence, etc. Better dribbler, much better passer, much better linking with others to create attacks, much smarter on the ball. I can see someone preferring Vinícius, although I'd heavily disagree, because of his more attacking-oriented game, which produce better stats; but Di Maria? Not a chance.
I love Figo, one of my favorite players ever, but I never get why sometimes we say things like "on a different level" when the majority of the very very Elite players are more or less in the same playground and their timing it's what mostly would paint a better image, not even carreer. When I'm saying very very elite I'm not including someone like Pele, that yes is indeed another cathegory.
I absolutely agree that Figo like I've said before was perhaps the most intelligent winger ever, his decision making always felt impecable for me, yet I dunno if I also see him with tinted glasses since I fecking love the mofo and in the past I feel we all watched football with more kind eyes and not constantly nitpicking.
I always admire also how he handle any sort of huge pression, included blatant hate from fans.
Yet in terms of technique, all around atributes, stats, etc all of the wingers mentioned so far are very close, with some of them having some extra quote of trully off the charts physical atribute like the pace in the case of Robben and Bale or incredible intelligence like Figo. So I agree and preffer Figo like I've said before and for the same reasons you've mentioned, but at this point I won't put him on a whole different scale regarding carreer, stats (Di María has BTW some increidble stats at thsi point), or atributes. Just my two cents
His achievements are undeniably impressive, but for me, it's about watching the player closely. From what I’ve seen, he doesn’t always deliver at his best when wearing a France shirt, despite all the accolades.
I've mentioned because he was a player that maybe for the reasons I've talked before and his style, never find it precisly easy with crowds and the Press or even coaches, the lad had a debut season with almost the same numbers that he had in that 2013/14 and yet his path was always with a "but" or with someone else the club wanting to elevate due to be a more high profile transfer or a more suitable image, that is why his case it's so complicated, he wasn't Solari, but in many ways he was treated in such terms no matter what he provided. This at then end of the day ended with him in that far from well thought transfer to Man Utd. Benzema in many ways faced a similar situation.
I totally agree that in the case of Figo that not only because of he already having a huge star status but also because of how he arrived, that was some IMMENSE pression, but in the case of Vini, certainly Madrid had lots of patience with the lad for a quite a long period (as they should and MUST being a kid) and of course from now on if he becomes the face of Madrid, he'll have to handle that huge tag.
Yet players like Benz and Di Maria are some odd cases, that faced situations and treatment that their talent should have not face and that it's also quite difficult to handle. Benz finally find some redemption with that CL without CR and Di Maria some sort of similar redemption with his late titles with the NT, yet at the end of the day like I've said tons of times here, there are in terms of talent, abilities huge gaps between them. It's not like a more tangible difference would be with someone like el Piojo Lopez, or the mentioned Solari and such.
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It seems giorno forgot!
I haven't. You probably haven't seen enough of Di Maria or Vini
You should also keep in mind that United fans don't have the best opinion of Di María after his stint hereI haven't. You probably haven't seen enough of Di Maria or Vini
For what it's worth, I kinda agree with you. Di María at his best was incredible. It's why I was so excited when we signed him.
Hrrmmm, obviously era's are different and the primary objective of all three were different too, but Figo was silk from before he even got to Real and maintained his level effortlessly. He was effortlessly world class and looked every bit a BPITW player just with his ability and technical acumen. Granted, that's not all you have to have to be top of the pile, but we're talking about someone who was never not rated amongst the very, very best of his era without question or doubt.I haven't. You probably haven't seen enough of Di Maria or Vini
I loves me some Vinicius, and I'm fully aware of the sublime form Di Maria showed for Madrid that deserved him getting parity instead of turfed out, but Figo had a different level of expectation and pressure to deliver than either of them; they've all delivered in big moments, but even your club thought Di Maria expendable and didn't rate him enough to pay him appropriately, you've also disrespected Vinicius with the Mbappe pursuit and eager chase of potential upset of the apple cart. Figo was treated like a superstar because he was one. I think Vinicius is soon to be treated similarly.
Leaving Figo as a hugh player aside, that for me was always stellar, no matter stats and his main asset (with his God given talent) was his intelligence, more special given his winger role.
The stuff that I priorly talked about was timing, plus in the case of Di Maria his not for everyone old guard extremely potrero style. Those aspects in my view, kept him away for a more fair apreciation.
Figo arrived to Madrid after at least 5 seasons in Barca fully mature and on the peak of his powers. Di Maria delivered instantly at 22 years old coming from Benfica as a bet, while that was 2010/11 and everything was about Barca no matter what you did in Madrid.
He never was a purchase like Becks, Figo, Zizou, Ronaldo fully mature or even Cris already 24 and of established mature STAR from another HUGE club and Real constantly doing Galactico style buys, it's logicall that never gave him that status even when he gained it on the pitch, less when they started a similar process of buying in a way like in Figo's days. BTW, Figo also had "issues" regarding his status with the arrival of R9, Becks and cia, sthg that he even talked about feeling a bit left apart, it's just how they operate, but it was way worse in those days. Lately after getting rid of Cris and rebuilding, they bought a bunch of youngsters for the future and I have no doubt that the 22 years old Di Maria in this current scenario of recent years from Madrid would have had a way bigger stage to showcase his game, yet that wasn't his period and the reasons why a fella with such a baggage of skills and talent got a more fair recognition very late in his carreer. I'm not playing the game of this fella it's way better than this other fella and such, I'm just giving some context.
Oh I know the context, but are you of the belief that Madrid don't elevate speculative purchases to the standard of their superstar buys if it's warranted? Di Maria was in the form of his life when they refused him and that's not just a 'cut off your nose to spite you face' move; it's a 'we don't believe you can sustain what your doing' move, or, 'this is a purple patch that will soon fade' move, and truth be told, nobody had elevated Di Maria to best player in the world or thereabouts standard at the time, but his amazing season was noted and acknowledged.
Figo wasn't able to hold top billing for long as obviously usurpers like Ronaldo and Zidane entered the fray. Beckham was a gimmick relative to Figo, not someone who could outright take his place, and fortunately enough for all involved, could find a home in central midfield.
But the point with Figo, stripping things down, he looked every bit a refined talent - someone there is no doubt you pay what you pay for him, which would be thereabouts a world record fee no matter the era. It's a different calibre of player to Di Maria, without slighting Di Maria, who I have no problem giving his due as I don't have the animosity toward him some of our supporters perhaps understandably do.
You mention age, and it has validity as he came to Madrid matured, but also at Barca - and arguably even more so - Figo was outstanding.
To me, this is just a case of arguing against a tier above, and in such a comparison, there's no shame in a Di Maria or Vinicius coming up short. In Vincius' case, he still has time to reach Figo's tier, but to par them as is? Nah.
I insist again, at the risk of being annoying, neither Florentino, nor anyone else at Madrid thought they had a player of Figo's stature in 2014. A Figo in 2014, after having the best season of his career, you never let him leave the squad in a thousand lifetimes to replace him with Gareth Bale. You renew his contract because he is a player that everyone is chasing to build a team around. We're talking about different dimensions of players.
And by the way, I don't think I'm disparaging Di Maria with this. He was an extraordinary player, just a lower grade in the hierarchy of what it means to be a top level star at Madrid.
And by the way, I don't think I'm disparaging Di Maria with this. He was an extraordinary player, just a lower grade in the hierarchy of what it means to be a top level star at Madrid.
You should also keep in mind that United fans don't have the best opinion of Di María after his stint here
For what it's worth, I kinda agree with you. Di María at his best was incredible. It's why I was so excited when we signed him.
to be clear, Figo was the better player. Mostly because, as you (kinda) say, Figo had teams built around him and delivered for them, just as much as he did next to better players(Rivaldo, Zidane, Ronnie), whereas Di Maria was arguably one of the 2 greatest "Robins" ever(the other is Iniesta), but never was given a team as his(except for isolated games, in which he often was superb). Figo was also just a bit more consistent across seasons
Flo makes mistakes too. At the time we had Cristiano and Bale was Flo's pet project, in much the same way he was obsessed with Mbappé, despite already having Vini(who to be honest is also a pet project of his). Plus the problem there was personal, by all accounts when they met to discuss a raise Di Maria lost his temper and pissed Flo off something fierce. On that note, Ancelotti spent the whole summer desperately trying to convinve Di Maria to stay and Flo to keep him
Put it this way: if Di Maria plays that kind of season for another team, Flo is spending a world record fee to sign him
Thread going off topic
What a mess this thread has become
Sorry for contributing to that somehow.
Back to topic, it will be interesting to see if Barcelona keep on using the usual high defensive line against Vinicius (and co.) given his current form.
Last match Bayern for moments took advantage of Barca's flanks quite a few times till they ended scoring, they certainly have to the very least take note
That guy is a bloody genius. I've read that in his last 53 matches for Real Madrid he contributed in 50 goals (32 goals and 18 assists). Not bad from a winger. Generally, Real Madrid does a really good job in scouting and signing really young players. Vinicius, Rodrygo, Valverde, Güler, Endrick, whatever.
Probably the most exciting player to watch currently in a period where a lot of football has lost individual geniuses to robotic system football heavily influenced by pep
We should make a cheeky bid in the summer. That left-side spot and jersey number of his is desired by Mbappe. We all know it.
He would be an instant upgrade on Rashford and Garnacho.
He would be an instant upgrade on Rashford and Garnacho.
Cheeky £170m bid…?Madrid would be absolutely insane to give either of those to Mbappe. He’s leagues ahead of him as a player, and it’s been shown already this season.
Until very recently, no one has ever considered Vinicius a better player than Mbappe.
People here writing Mbappe off after 10 games is hilarious.
Mbappe has just moved to a new league and a new country and is playing out of position in a role that doesn't suit him. Just like his idol Cristiano, Mbappe is not a striker. He's a Left Winger/Inside Left Forward who likes playing off a targetman(like Giroud). He can't play with his back to goal. He prefers facing the goal instead.
Let's not forget how much time it took Vinicius to settle into this club. He was mocked by his own teammates(remember the Benzema incident where he said Vini was playing against them).
Vinicius has never shown the consistency over a season that Mbappe(and Haaland) has in the past. Mbappe is already one of the best international players ever. Vinicius is absolutely embarrassing for Brazil. One of the worst top players in international football.
Mbappe is still a better player than Vinicius. The recency bias is laughable and I'll choose to look at their entire careers instead of a tiny sample space of a few games.
Came into this thread expecting to see Romano confirming he was joining United in January. You guys should all piss off about Figo!
I’ll go one more and seemingly shock your senses: the Mbappe transfer was being condemned before he even got there!Until very recently, no one has ever considered Vinicius a better player than Mbappe.
People here writing Mbappe off after 10 games is hilarious.
Mbappe has just moved to a new league and a new country and is playing out of position in a role that doesn't suit him. Just like his idol Cristiano, Mbappe is not a striker. He's a Left Winger/Inside Left Forward who likes playing off a targetman(like Giroud). He can't play with his back to goal. He prefers facing the goal instead.
Let's not forget how much time it took Vinicius to settle into this club. He was mocked by his own teammates(remember the Benzema incident where he said Vini was playing against them).
Vinicius has never shown the consistency over a season that Mbappe(and Haaland) has in the past. Mbappe is already one of the best international players ever. Vinicius is absolutely embarrassing for Brazil. One of the worst top players in international football.
Mbappe is still a better player than Vinicius. The recency bias is laughable and I'll choose to look at their entire careers instead of a tiny sample space of a few games.
If this is really true, it's a great decision. Turned up for 2 games and was invisible for Brazil and inconsistent throughout the season. Would have been the most underwhelming winner ever.
Boycotting it because somebody else who is more deserving of it won is laughable