Victor Osimhen

He looked unplayable at times a couple of seasons ago when Napoli were flying. I’ve not watched he’d a lot of him since then.

What’s the story with his loan move and such? Seems a bit of a fall from grace as they were talk of £100m transfers on the agenda.
 
devilish said:
If you go back in the EPL history you'll have the first 'wave' of Serie A strikers (Bergkamp, Zola, Vialli, Ravanelli, Di Canio) did very well only to be followed by almost nothing. Sheva, Balotelli, Cutrone, Kean, Scamacca, Zaza, Ventola....they all failed. Hojlund did reasonably well in the Serie A, we know how he's fairing here same as Zirkzee. Is this down to United being shit? Well not really. Chiesa is struggling with Liverpool as well.

The Serie A is less physical and played at much lower tempo then the EPL. Someone with a strong physique could do an Asterix/Obelix in the Serie A. Just ask Lukaku and McT on that. However they would hit a brick wall in the EPL as its filled with the likes of Maguire, Van Dijk and van de Ven who could go pound by pound with any brute.

Capello summarized up perfectly for Zirkzee

“Go watch Zirkzee play in the Premier League and tell me if he seems like the same player we admired in Bologna – in Italy, he did what he wanted. “In England, he doesn’t even have time to think about the play before the ball is stolen from him. More or less the same thing happens to our teams.”
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The shrinking of the adaptation phase might be a bit of a factor? Bergkamp took a year and a new manager to settle. Di Canio had a little warm up in Scotland before arriving in England and still had some issues (well, one main one) at Wednesday before his success at West Ham. The Chelsea lot (if I'm remembering right) all settled well, but they also all came in together under Gullit which probably helped.

Obviously Serie A was comparatively just much better at the time too. Players came from Italy as established stars who had a point to prove after falling somewhat out of favour at big clubs back then. Now it's usually developing talent that comes over, and when you add that to a "nah mate, I've seen him play twice and he's just shit" approach to player evaluation, it's little wonder there's a marked difference.
 
devilish said:
Hojlund was given more opportunity in the EPL then in the Serie A were they correctly identified him as a work in progress rather then a first teamer

Who was the last Italian striker to do well in the EPL?
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It's been a while for sure but it doesn't have to do much with the league. Sure there's some players that I think would struggle here (Kvara) but Hojlund and Zirkzee weren't outstanding players in italy, Zirzkee benefitted from the unique way Bologna set up and it was clear he was a system player. Like you said, they saw hojlund as a work in progress, so what are you expecting from him? That has little to do with the league but more to do with how clueless the recruitment has been.

Signing two unproven strikers is the issue, not the league they came from.
 
Trigg said:
He looked unplayable at times a couple of seasons ago when Napoli were flying. I’ve not watched he’d a lot of him since then.

What’s the story with his loan move and such? Seems a bit of a fall from grace as they were talk of £100m transfers on the agenda.
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Napoli posted a few racist tweets, Osimhen didn't like it obviously and he fell out with the club and refused the offers the club made to him to make it right, ended up going out on loan as he didn't want to be there and by that time the window was nearly closed and the Turkish window was open longer so he ended up moving there but it was always with the proviso that if a few clubs came in he could break the loan and go if Napoli agreed a fee in January, he's done well in Turkey for what it's worth.
 
Undoubtedly a great striker, and a better striker then what we have at the moment, but there's a few aspects with him that makes me unsure whether he's the one..
- High transfer fee.
- Will demand a very high salary, presumably be our best paid player.
- His injury record. Has at average missed 16-17 matches the previous 4 seasons. Missed 5 so far this season.
- AFCON. Meaning he can/will be unavailable between 21.dec - 18.jan next season.
- Unproven in the PL (not saying that this should be a requirement, but it presents a certain risk at least)
- Reduced resale-value due to high wages.

Looking at it, it seems like the classic "marquee-signing" that we do with a potential to backfire on us. That said, for a reasonable package (fee and wages) I'd be all for signing him - but not by throwing silly money at him.
 
AngeloHenriquez said:
Napoli posted a few racist tweets, Osimhen didn't like it obviously and he fell out with the club and refused the offers the club made to him to make it right, ended up going out on loan as he didn't want to be there and by that time the window was nearly closed and the Turkish window was open longer so he ended up moving there but it was always with the proviso that if a few clubs came in he could break the loan and go if Napoli agreed a fee in January, he's done well in Turkey for what it's worth.
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Ah I do remember the tweets but thought they’d sorted it out.

It’s these high fee, high wages that United need to stop doing but a part of me is all for it! That Napoli team 2 seasons ago was marvellous to watch and he was a big part of it.
 
Lay said:
It's been a while for sure but it doesn't have to do much with the league. Sure there's some players that I think would struggle here (Kvara) but Hojlund and Zirkzee weren't outstanding players in italy, Zirzkee benefitted from the unique way Bologna set up and it was clear he was a system player. Like you said, they saw hojlund as a work in progress, so what are you expecting from him? That has little to do with the league but more to do with how clueless the recruitment has been.

Signing two unproven strikers is the issue, not the league they came from.
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Hojlund and Zirkzee were considered as highly promising strikers in the Serie A with the latter at the cusp of joining Milan before we snapped him in.

Experience is massively overrated in terms of strikers. You don't teach positioning and an eye for goal as that often come natural. Take the likes of Ole, Haaland, young Owen and young Rooney. They were all able to bag tons of goals despite not being very experienced. Age can be important as strikers often play against man mountains thus they depend heavily on their body developing to its full extent. However most skills are natural, you either have it or you don't.

Which leads us to the Serie A. The problem with the Serie A is that the lessons taught there are the opposite to how the EPL is played. In the Serie A strikers are taught that football is a chess game were everyone has his role, were brains wins over brawn and spaces will open and close eventually. In the EPL everything is insanely physical and played at a frantic pace. Hence why Serie A strikers struggle in the EPL.
 
devilish said:
Hojlund and Zirkzee were considered as highly promising strikers in the Serie A with the latter at the cusp of joining Milan before we snapped him in.

Experience is massively overrated in terms of strikers. You don't teach positioning and an eye for goal as that often come natural. Take the likes of Ole, Haaland, young Owen and young Rooney. They were all able to bag tons of goals despite not being very experienced. Age can be important as strikers often play against man mountains thus they depend heavily on their body developing to its full extent. However most skills are natural, you either have it or you don't.

Which leads us to the Serie A. The problem with the Serie A is that the lessons taught there are the opposite to how the EPL is played. In the Serie A strikers are taught that football is a chess game were everyone has his role, were brains wins over brawn and spaces will open and close eventually. In the EPL everything is insanely physical and played at a frantic pace. Hence why Serie A strikers struggle in the EPL.
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Not sure what the second paragraph has to do with anything, I don't rate Hojlund at all and saw his limitations in Italy. Zirzkee has always seemed a system player and the season before last he only managed 2 goals in Italy. None of this screams elite, if anything it shows once he's integrated he might be a worthwhile player but he isn't one who will be expected to hit the ground running.

I agree with your second point to an extent but Osimhen is literally what you want in an EPL striker, he's physical, quick and has that killer instinct. The drawbacks are that he can sometimes look clumsy and finishing (albeit contradicting myself) can be erratic. Oh and injuries.

On Hojlund again, whether he was seen as promising is irrelevant to me because he didn't have enough body of work to show anything that he's promising. Copenhagen didn't rate him, he did okay in Austria and he only got into the side at Atalanta due to injuries. He played his first 90 minutes in January that season that only finished 90 minutes 4-5 times.

If he was scoring 25 goals, I'd understand the hesitancy signing another Serie A forward but he was nowhere near the likes of Osimhen in talent or productivity.
 
We are looking for a cultural reset, a clearing out of the bad attitudes and replacing them with hard working, dedicated players. What about this guys career gives people the impression he would fit that plan? This guy seems like nothing but trouble, trouble not worth one purple patch in Italy. Hard pass, in fact I actively hope we don't sign this guy, it would be a huge setback.
 
harms said:
Is this statement based on something? I'm pretty sure he never played in any of these roles, especially not in a system similar to Amorim's. He's not particularly creative, he's a fantastic goalscorer, a very powerful runner and an athletic/physical beast, it's not exactly the qualities that necessarily make you a great number 10.
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Plays in a two with Bonaface for his country both takes turns in dropping deep?
I’m talking second striker not 10, Amorim likes to play SS, 10 creator as the two behind the mobile 9.

Maybe this is why Vlahovic as a swap for Zirkzee is being mentioned, Vlahovic also plays just behind Mitrovic for Serbia. Amorim wants more goal threat and more men in the penalty box who can score.
 
The defences in Italy are no longer what they were, hence some ordinary strikers are making names for themselves. I’d be wary about osimhen especially if he’s expected to get a high salary too.

Though he has an advantage over most in that he can head the ball, would be handy defensively too
 
Osimhen excelled in France, Italy and now Turkey. The whole "XYZ league" argument has always been weak, but especially so in this case.

That said, I'm not particularly enthused about a potential move for him - he's certainly a goalscorer, but I prefer players who are more technically sound
 
userman said:
Undoubtedly a great striker, and a better striker then what we have at the moment, but there's a few aspects with him that makes me unsure whether he's the one..
- High transfer fee.
- Will demand a very high salary, presumably be our best paid player.
- His injury record. Has at average missed 16-17 matches the previous 4 seasons. Missed 5 so far this season.
- AFCON. Meaning he can/will be unavailable between 21.dec - 18.jan next season.
- Unproven in the PL (not saying that this should be a requirement, but it presents a certain risk at least)
- Reduced resale-value due to high wages.

Looking at it, it seems like the classic "marquee-signing" that we do with a potential to backfire on us. That said, for a reasonable package (fee and wages) I'd be all for signing him - but not by throwing silly money at him.
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Good post.

He is playing in the best team in Turkey, but doesn't seem to be the best striker in that league. He's had one standout season and that was in Seria A, but that was a really strong Napoli team all around. And I agree with the sentiments about Seria A in this thread.

He is a good finisher, but relies a lot on service and setup, and then there's the injuries, but I suppose that will also give Hojlund plenty of games to play.

I don't think he will do particularly well here, to be honest. If United can get him for a reasonable package, I guess he will do, since there aren't many strikers out there. But I'd just wait for summer and try for Gyokeres. Especially when there are much more pressing positions.
 
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Firmly on the Gyokeres train. Never liked the look of Osimhem, feels like a striker Chelsea would sign who proceeds to stink up the place before leaving in 12 months.
 
Giant Midget said:
Firmly on the Gyokeres train. Never liked the look of Osimhem, feels like a striker Chelsea would sign who proceeds to stink up the place before leaving in 12 months.
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That's not fair - every striker Chelsea sign looks like that. If they had a front three of Isak, Watkins, and Haaland, Malo Gusto would probably outscore the lot.
 
He's interesting because he's only gone 26 and hasn't played many minutes in his career compared to other players his age, so theoretically there isn't as much wear and tear. He's made only 239 first team club career appearances. Rashford is only a year older but has made 426.

There might have been some major financial red flags over his signing in the Summer though because it's very unlike Chelsea to baulk and walk away from a deal in the way they did. Although it might've been the case that they just couldn't do it because of financial regulations and ordinarily would have.

It seems a bit strange that he ended up in Turkey. But there was no room for a starting CF at Madrid, City, Liverpool, Bayern or PSG. Arsenal were a good fit on paper but weren't in the market for a starting CF (Arteta likes more flexible players to play in that position - Havertz, Jesus etc. can play multiple positions)

Ultimately it'll come down to value - INEOS will have a valuation in mind for him (wages + transfer fee) and will not overpay. That's if they are interested in him in the first instance which isn't clear.
 
Would take him on a Larsson as he's much better than anything we currently have. If it works out, then we could buy in the summer. If not, then we by Gyokeres in the summer.
 
Just get him on loan with an option to buy in the summer—that’s the move. If Rashford goes the other way on a similar deal, even better. Napoli wouldn’t say no to that, would they?

Of course, it all hinges on Rashford being open to the idea, but let’s be honest—we desperately need strikers, and Osimhen is the kind of player who guarantees goals. He’s exactly what we’re missing right now.

Make it happen, and everyone wins. Goals for us, opportunities for Rashford, and Napoli gets what they want too. It’s a no-brainer!
 
devilish said:
Hojlund was given more opportunity in the EPL then in the Serie A were they correctly identified him as a work in progress rather then a first teamer

If Lukaku was doing so well in England then he wouldn't be sold by us and by Chelsea.

Now my turn

Who was the last Italian striker to do well in the EPL?
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we playing jeopardy?

"Who is the best player in the PL"

Anyways, the main difference between Serie A and the PL are pace of play and physicality. Now, in the olden days, back when Serie A was the top, strikers left Italy and shredded whatever other league because Italian defences played faster and tighter than anywhere else, meaning strikers had to have really fast reactions and decision making as there was very little space or time to make plays. Whereas in other leagues, they enjoyed significantly more space and time, thus making their life much easier. So the strikers who made it in Italy were effectively the best around

And the same is now true of the PL. Hence, strikers moving from outside the PL into the PL are going to face harder playing conditions


Now, having said all that - Zirkzee had exactly one good season in his entire career, and Hojlund had a great 6 months in Serie A. Not sure how much of their failures are down to going from Serie A to the PL vs United were just too hasty going for still absolutely unproven players...

As to Osimhen - he had one season were he was a destroyer of worlds, but outside that he's been essentially Jamie Vardy. Which is not a bad thing, but also not worth ridiculous wages
 
Lay said:
Not sure what the second paragraph has to do with anything, I don't rate Hojlund at all and saw his limitations in Italy. Zirzkee has always seemed a system player and the season before last he only managed 2 goals in Italy. None of this screams elite, if anything it shows once he's integrated he might be a worthwhile player but he isn't one who will be expected to hit the ground running.

I agree with your second point to an extent but Osimhen is literally what you want in an EPL striker, he's physical, quick and has that killer instinct. The drawbacks are that he can sometimes look clumsy and finishing (albeit contradicting myself) can be erratic. Oh and injuries.

On Hojlund again, whether he was seen as promising is irrelevant to me because he didn't have enough body of work to show anything that he's promising. Copenhagen didn't rate him, he did okay in Austria and he only got into the side at Atalanta due to injuries. He played his first 90 minutes in January that season that only finished 90 minutes 4-5 times.

If he was scoring 25 goals, I'd understand the hesitancy signing another Serie A forward but he was nowhere near the likes of Osimhen in talent or productivity.
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Almost everyone in Italy rated hojlund. They considered him as works in progress and no where near the fees we paid but they did rated him as a top talent. Zirkzee was considered as a system striker but one worth investing on. That was mainly to his skillset (tall, technical, workrate) and attitude. May I remind you that Milan were at the brink of signing him while Juventus now wants him as well

Osimhen is the finished article. However he's strengths ,(physically and pace) are the norm in the EPL. Will he make him excel or would he be made look ordinary? Also note that while he is a consistent scorer, he does seem to struggle to score against the big guns. That's problematic considering that the gap in quality between the higher end and the lower end is huge. Needless to say that quality of an average EPL game is usually at par if not higher to a Serie A game.

But what worries me the most are two things. First of all its his salary which is huge and would make it difficult to sell if things go wrong. Secondly its the Serie A attitude in itself. You see, if an English player fails then assuming the salary given wasn't too much OTT then you'll always find someone in the EPL willing to spend money upon him. We've seen that with Sancho and Maguire. Unfortunately things doesn't work that with former Serie A player. If a player doesn't hit the ground running then you'll see the Italian media trying to destabilize the player with 'Milan wants him or Juve wants him'. Then once that happen they'll come with this silly 'loan with option to buy' with 90% of the salary paid by us thing that would mean us having to finance their success.
 
giorno said:
we playing jeopardy?

"Who is the best player in the PL"

Anyways, the main difference between Serie A and the PL are pace of play and physicality. Now, in the olden days, back when Serie A was the top, strikers left Italy and shredded whatever other league because Italian defences played faster and tighter than anywhere else, meaning strikers had to have really fast reactions and decision making as there was very little space or time to make plays. Whereas in other leagues, they enjoyed significantly more space and time, thus making their life much easier. So the strikers who made it in Italy were effectively the best around

And the same is now true of the PL. Hence, strikers moving from outside the PL into the PL are going to face harder playing conditions


Now, having said all that - Zirkzee had exactly one good season in his entire career, and Hojlund had a great 6 months in Serie A. Not sure how much of their failures are down to going from Serie A to the PL vs United were just too hasty going for still absolutely unproven players...

As to Osimhen - he had one season were he was a destroyer of worlds, but outside that he's been essentially Jamie Vardy. Which is not a bad thing, but also not worth ridiculous wages
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Never thought that Salah was Italian. Was he born in Friuli?

I agree with most what you're said so there's not much for me to argue with. The only thing I do not agree with you is on Zirkzee/Hojlund. We went for strikers other big clubs wanted. The issue with Hojlund was that we spent too much money on him and we expected him to hit the ground running. He wasn't ready. Regarding Zirkzee we tried to treat the symptoms rather then the problem. The team wasn't creating and we went for Zirkzee thinking that him dropping deeper and his knack of creating chances for others will get the likes of Rashford and Garnacho to score more. The thing is that wingers/AMC should be the ones creating and the striker should be the one scoring goals
 
devilish said:
Never thought that Salah was Italian. Was he born in Friuli?
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We wish :lol: Came from Serie A though
devilish said:
I agree with most what you're said so there's not much for me to argue with. The only thing I do not agree with you is on Zirkzee/Hojlund. We went for strikers other big clubs wanted.
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Just because other big clubs were interested doesm't mean it was smart to sign them. I mean, the big club that wanted Zirkzee ultimately dropping him over the total cost of the operation, and absolutely nobody was willing to spend the kind of money United spent on Hojlund. It was pretty obvious with both at the time that United were rolling the dice with these players, they weren't signing sure things

Osimhem has a much longer and solid track record behind him
 
giorno said:
We wish :lol: Came from Serie A though

Just because other big clubs were interested doesm't mean it was smart to sign them. I mean, the big club that wanted Zirkzee ultimately dropping him over the total cost of the operation, and absolutely nobody was willing to spend the kind of money United spent on Hojlund. It was pretty obvious with both at the time that United were rolling the dice with these players, they weren't signing sure things

Osimhem has a much longer and solid track record behind him
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Salah is neither Italian nor a striker. Both points are very important. Salah spent 3 years in Italy, 2 of which as a Chelsea player. That means that back in his mind he must have built himself to do well for Chelsea. The typical Italian striker is raised to do well in the Serie A and he probably want to remain there. Salah was also an inside forward which means that he drifts in and out of the defense rather then be constantly surrounded by defenders which, in my opinion, makes his job easier

It's funny cause I was one of the very few in here who wanted Salah with United back when he was at Roma (I was right on that one). Hold your horses in terms of praise though as I wanted Zirkzee as well. I could understand what ETH had in mind. He couldn't get rid of Rashy and Garnacho thus he wanted a forward to do the donkey work for them. That experiment didn't work, it was silly to start with as we should have never appeased a underperforming player just because he's Rashy and we should have made the painful changes we needed to do.
 
Woziak said:
Plays in a two with Bonaface for his country both takes turns in dropping deep?
I’m talking second striker not 10, Amorim likes to play SS, 10 creator as the two behind the mobile 9.

Maybe this is why Vlahovic as a swap for Zirkzee is being mentioned, Vlahovic also plays just behind Mitrovic for Serbia. Amorim wants more goal threat and more men in the penalty box who can score.
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He doesn't. It's either Osimhen or Boniface (always Osimhen if he's available), playing with Lookman playing off the flank as the second striker sort of.
 
Lay said:
Chiesa struggling isn't a shock, there's a reason he was sold for peanuts. He's been in physical decline for two years. He barely played much until last season.

Lukaku did well in England, people forget this. The guy was scoring goals for fun in England and at one point was scoring as much as Kane. His first Inter spell was the standout, since then he's been on the decline and scoring the same rate as his time in England.

If Hojlund did reasonably well in Italy but somehow hasn't here even though he's scored more?
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In Italy Rasmus scored 9 league goals as opposed to 10 in his first season here. That is very misleading though as he was 19 when he played for Atalanta and was mostly a sub as he was nowhere near being their first choice forward and so when he joined us he played a lot more minutes and had a lot more starts even though he quite clearly was not ready.
 
Raoul said:
Would take him on a Larsson as he's much better than anything we currently have. If it works out, then we could buy in the summer. If not, then we by Gyokeres in the summer.
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if somehow we could manage to get him on loan that would be a fantastic bit of business.....he could follow in the footsteps of Ighalo
 
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