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Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 34
- Clean sheets
- 15
- Goals
- 0
- Assists
- 0
- Yellow cards
- 2
- Status
Someone please show this to Roy Keane while on live TV.
Why would Lindelof try to take him down and create a dangerous free kick, when there were five other United players behind him? He must surely be able to trust them to be able to handle that, or?
There was a situation when Martinez was pushing high and got overplayed, see photo. Or actually it is more similar to the third goal. When Martinez failed, he did not take any unnecessary fouls. Instead he trusted his team mates to take care of it. Casemiro ran with Ramsey and covered him. Casemiro did not take any unnecessary freekicks, instead he just covered and limited Ramsey's options, like Lindelof at the third goal. Ramsey could only play the ball in one way, and Lindelof has taken a good position in the box and can easily clear the ball. That's how you do it.
Martinez push high against Ramsey.
Ramsey plays around Martinez and then takes a run in to the space created behind Martinez, and gets back the ball. This is the dangerous space when the CBs push high. Casemiro runs along Ramsey.
Casemiro covers most of Ramsey's options, does not create dangerous freekicks, instead he trusts his team mates in the box to clear it, and Lindelof does. Simple, no freekicks, no drama, just good positioning. It isn't sexy nor appreciated by some fans as it doesn't involve aggression, but it gets the job done with low risk.
There he is
Always been a problem. Soft defender. So much money spent on the defence and the defence still isn’t up to par
The problem is this is Lindelof's entire attitude to defending. It's not situational and he doesn't read the game as you imply. I don't think it's about who is on the cover or who does what, it's a default Lindelof setting.
He just backs off with alarming regularity . The problem being there's about a 50/50 chance that is correct for a given situation. Either we concede as a result and he can hide behind the inevitable mistakes of others in the build up because he was "in position" or we don't concede because he gets lucky due to the natural variation in the game. It's genius really, making a career of non engagement and limited decision making at this level all while maintaining plausible deniability as to his culpability.
He's a massive problem in the hustle and bustle of competitive games. Only good for the likes of Omonia where there's no defending to do and he can just pass it around side to side which he's decent at.
No!! Lindelof should be trying to win the ball from Watkins not trying to commit a foul!!
If he can't win the ball then the least thing he should do is commit a foul to stop the play and prevent Watkins to pass the ball to his team mate because once he left his position then he must not let Watkins to pass the ball forward otherwise, Aston Villa will exploit the open space, which they did!!!
And Lindelof did neither!! Lindelof failed to stop Watkins because he's too weak and too soft.
You are all over the place mate!! Let's talk about the Twitter clip first before going to another clips/screenshots. You can't even get it right about the first one and wants to talk about other things.
Since when is a free kick 40 yards from goal a dangerous free kick!? And the point isn't to foul him, the point is to try win the ball early and if you can't, then foul him... and it's certainly to do that before you get to the box (where it's much harder to make a challenge). The sad thing is even when he got into the box, he's pressure is so meek, Watkins can easily get his head up and pick a pass.
Context is everything, we're being countered, we're not set. Take the ball, or take the free kick and get set. It's pretty simple.
Could of course be like you say, and EtH has been fooled, or he brings things to the game that EtH appreciates. Impossible to know.
The point is that the space should be closed down. You cannot have CBs pushing forward and nobody to cover. Basics stuff. Just like Casemiro and Lindelof did when Martinez was overplayed. Watkins is almost at the half line and the rest of the defence is defending low. Should really not be worth taking a foul and yellow for. He should have backed off earlier instead.
Of course you could foul and take a yellow in that situation, but instead he slowed him down to get everybody back, and controlled him quite well imo. I would say he should have been closer, but also you can't have three United players in the same small space in the box, and nobody marking the Villa players.
Would be interesting to hear from you , if you were happy with how they defended in the box and it was only Lindelof not taking the foul behind this goal?
I'm not sure him playing requires ETH to be fooled. Only to think that he's currently a better option than Harry Maguire.
Oh it was all a total shit-show, but it doesn't make Lindelof's defending any less shit.
Why are you making it sounds like Lindelof in more difficult situation than Lisandro? A yellow card for first foul in that situation in the 40 yard from the goal, really???
Once Lindelof was tight with Watkins, he had two options: Win the ball back from Watkins OR commit a foul in a far away from the goal aka non-dangerous position. Both have the same purpose to prevent Watkins making the pass. There is no 3rd option, he had the easiest situation among others.
On contrary, Lisandro was in the situation whether he should leave his spot to stay tight with Bailey by leaving the central area with no cover or stay in his spot but left few space between him and Bailey. Both have different purpose. He had much more difficult situation than Lindelof.
Lindelof had the easiest situation in comparison to others but he chose to do nothing because he's too weak and soft.
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That's the thing, Lindelof trust his team mates to actually do the job for him.
He doesn't compromise, don't stop the opposition to not give "dangerous free kicks" even in midfield.
The third goal shows exactly what you're telling, but I don't understand why you use it to defend Lindelof. He backs off and off and off for 40 meters until Bailey it's in our box at that time he trust his team mates to do the job he didn't do and stop the cross. They didn't poor old Lindelof was let down by them.
Sorry mate, totally non sense.
'Lindelof's team mates need to cover for him' - let's ignore he doesn't actually do his job in the first place.
'ETH plays Lindelof so therefore, he clearly rates and trusts him' - lets ignore McTominay starting over Casemiro at the start of the season.
'Lindelof cannot commit a foul or take a yellow card' - let's ignore he can actually win a tackle or put proper pressure on an attacker to stop him from playing an easy pass.
'Martinez made a mistake too, therefore it happens to everyone' - let's ignore Martinez is 10 times the defender, ball player on and off the ball, whilst contributing exponentially more to our team.
'Let's analyse this one incident and dissect it, to prove Lindelof didn't do any wrong or right' - let's pretend the rest of his game makes up for this such as 'he's suited to a high line', 'he reads the game well' etc.
Any other guys?
Lindelof's abilities and mistakes are all hypothetical. He never does any 'wrong', they're just open to interpretation. Lindelof's defender is a better defender than the Swede
I remember at the time thinking WTF is Lindelof doing chasing a player so far from his own box. He was badly out of position and we know the rest of the story, but if you've idiotically committed to challenging for the ball that far up the pitch then take the man down and give up the free kick in a completely non-threatening part of the pitch.
ETH started the season with him as 4th choice, only injuries to Maguire & Varane got him into the side, it’s been just four games since Maguire got back and Maguire got 45 minutes to ease him back in for one game and of the other 3 he started 1. He’ll likely replace Vic for our next game.
I don’t think him starting a few games with other CB’s out injured proves anything about what ETH appreciates.
It easily gets polarized on a forum, but I am not that far off from what you both write, I just think it is exaggerated and a bit wrong analysis.
Goal 1. He should have given up following the player and backed home. However I do not agree he should commit a foul as it was not really a dangerous situation. And yes, I expect him to trust his team mates to do their job. It is a team effort. If Dalot and Casemiro had done what was expected from them, that hole would have been easily closed, and Martinez + Shaw (I think) could maybe have been more active.
Goal 3. He should have been tighter to his player, especially when in the box. If he had been dribbled Martinez had already recovered and was behind him. With the luxury of hindsight, yes why not commit the foul early and take a yellow, but these situations occur a couple of times during matches and are most often dealt with, especially when you are five men back in defence.
When you are last man and delay the attacker for other to come back, it is not hiding, it is working as a team.
When the CBs go chasing the player like we witnessed against Aston Villa, then imo it was because they were instructed to do so.
Aston Villa setup in a 4222 shape, and EtH countered that in the defensive transition by going with a man to man press rather than the orthodox ball orientated press we're accustomed to seeing.
So in that setup, Lindelof's direct opponent is Watkins. So when Watkins is on the ball, Lindelof must follow the plan and apply pressure when his direct opponent is on the ball. The problem Lindelof causes for himself and his team mates, is that he allows Watkins to come in-field and play a pass to his team mate (Ramsey) who is in the ( right/centre) half space. You can be beaten on the outside in that scenario, but you cannot allow the opponent to come inside and dribble towards the centre circle because you've allowed him to create space in a area where the man to man press is vulnerable. And that vulnerable area is the half spaces where Ramsey was waiting to receive the pass. It's a very bad mistake which exposes an area of the pitch that has the potential to open up space for the opposition.
Casemiro absolutely shouldn't be covering the space vacated by Lindelof because that would then defeat the purpose of a man to man press. Casemiro followed the instructions and cut the passing option to Buendia, who was his direct opponent. Casemiro only moved from his position after realising that Lindelof had compromised the entire defensive structure by allowing Watkins to dribble in-field, which exposed the half spaces to the opposition. Lindelof in that scenario has to either win the ball, make Watkins beat him on the outside (protecting the half spaces) or foul him. He does none of the three things and it opens up the game for Aston Villa in the half spaces, which is a big big mistake.
There was two other mistakes made after Lindelof's major mistake. And those mistakes were by Luke Shaw who should've been closer to Ramsey in the half space when the Villa man received the ball. And Garnacho who was oblivious to Matty Cash making a run on his blind side and hence ended up completely free on Villa's right hand side. But those mistakes stem from Lindelof's major mistake which allowed the half spaces to be exposed.
The clip below quite clearly demonstrates Casemiro being tight on his direct opponent Buendia, and you can also see that as soon as Bailey receives the ball in the half space, Martinez is off to close him down but unfortunately Shaw doesn't read the situation and affords Ramsey with too much time on the ball to pick his pass in a very vulnerable area of the pitch. But like I said, the defensive structure was compromised by Lindelof losing his direct duel with Watkins, which meant further mistakes were made. And Lindelof losing his duel meant Bailey ran into his vacated space and punished us.
Trying to implement proactive, attacking football isn't only about being proactive on the ball, but also being proactive without the ball by winning your duels, proactively. One could be the best teacher in the world, but if your students are lacking in comparison to the competition, then you're going to come a cropper until you have a higher caliber of student.
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I agree....Victor is a pussy!
And why Lindelof shouldn't commit a foul in the 40 yards from the goal?
A team effort means everyone has to do their given tasks, not producing nothing and passing his own responsibility to his team members that already in much more difficult situation to execute his tasks. Lindelof had the easiest situation to make the decision when he was tight with Watkins in the 40 yards from the goal, which either win the ball or commit a foul. You are acting like Lindelof is in 20 or 25 yards from the goal playing against prime Messi or Zlatan.
@Adnan described exactly why Lindelof is to be blamed.
The vulnerable area, the open space, you talk about should not be open space. That’s not the channel behind the CB, it’s a central area that should have been closed down. If Lindelof hadn’t pressed at all that space would still be open. It is the moment later where they take advantage of the Chanel behind Lindelof. That channel could easily been closed, preferably by Dalot, but also by Casemiro if Dalot had taken his man.
My main point is that he is being criticised for not fouling, but imo it is definitely not a clear situation where the CB must take a foul, Even if the CB fails to take the ball like in this case, they are at the half line with five United more outfield players between the ball and goal. (It should also be added to that discussion that ETH has spoken about our lack of discipline leading to suspensions,:we are now facing our fourth yellow card suspension, so I don’t think he’s been instructing the players to foul more often)
It’s everyone else’s fault just like it always is
The only way the half spaces could be closed down by the likes of Casemiro is if he had abandoned the man to man press. And that would defeat the purpose of going man to man in the first place.
And no one is saying Lindelof shouldn't have pressed because that's exactly what he should've done in a man orientated press. But the issue was with how he went about pressing his direct opponent and not the press itself. It was poor execution of a man to man press which exposed the half spaces.
I'm not saying he should foul his player in that scenario. But what he could've done is shown Watkins on the outside and if he got beaten for pace on the outside, then Casemiro was still in a good position to adjust and contain the situation. But allowing Watkins to come in-field, eliminated Casemiro from the equation because he was occupied with his direct opponent, which was Buendia. Look where Buendia is in the clip posted above.
In a man orientated press, you need all your players to either win their individual duels or contain the situation by minimising the risk. And minimising the risk was to close the passage in-field and make Watkins go on the outside.
Yes agree that 1 he should press and 2 the press was poor. However we will from time to time fail with our press, often a couple of times per match. I don’t agree that the space couldn’t be shut down and that the pass from Watkins couldn’t be stopped. Casemiro had already abandoned his man and was in a pointless position. Also Eriksen was in a pointless position, if he had backed home five metres he would have shut down the entire space. That meant there was no midfield at all to protect or shut down the big space in the centre.
There was a good photo posted of the situation where the pass took place. Here you could see how easily Eriksen could have shut down that space and that Casemiro could have backed home a little earlier than he did.
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Must say I’m a bit surprised that you haven’t heard of, or at least not understood, the concept of team defending.
Here is quite well described how Lindelof was following and giving the attacker only few options at the third goal, and how expecting team mates to do their job is not passing his own responsibility to them:
Lindelof does a good job of keeping Watkins in front of him, but that’s about all he can do. In this situation his priority is simply not allowing Watkins an easy chance.
That means he can’t engage in a 1v1 duel because if he loses not only is Watkins is home free, but Martinez would have to come over leaving United without numerical superiority in the box. The defender here needs to just force Watkins to either take a bad shot, or give the ball up and rely on his teammates having picked up the necessary runners and can defend that pass.
Lindelof does that successfully, the problem being, none of his teammates have ever bothered to pick up the late runner.
Source
You can't count on a man to man press to be 100% in ball recovery all the time. I'd say Lindelof did ok by forcing Watkins to move away from goal towards the midfield. What was needed was for Rashford and Van de Beek to recognise the situation and assist in the press. Rashford recognised this, although too late to be effective. Van de Beek on the other just left his position, the same area Watkins was moving to, and instead moved towards Diaz in a completely non-threatening area. What for?. What makes a press effective is the collective effort at engaging in it. Here, Rashford and especially Van de Beek failed in their duty of collective effort. When you watch Liverpool, City and now Arsenal, you often see 2 or 3 teammates pressing, not one person.
Why are you using quote that refer to Goal 3 for my argument about the Goal 1 when I have only been talking about Goal 1? You thought you can trick me eh?
You even avoided my question of why Lindelof shouldn't commit a foul in the 40 yards from the goal.The issue about Lindelof on the first goal is not about team defending but it's about his liability in using the advantages in that situation. He had two advantages:
- 8 seconds
- Doesn't need to be worry of making foul in 40 yards from the goal
This is what Varane and Lisandro would do if he was given 8 seconds and being 40 yards from the goal. ETH, Casemiro, Martinez, and Eriksen thought Lindelof would do the same but in reality they didn't know Lindelof is too weak and too soft with no aggression.
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You are conflating two different versions of the press. What you're describing is a ball orientated press and not a man to man press, which Erik ten Hag had quite clearly set the team up for to negate Aston Villa's 4222 shape. And when you watch teams who press collectively by utiling a pressing trigger and then follow that up with a Wolf like wide pressing trap, you're watching a team who is implementing a ball orientated press.
So Lindelof doesn't do very well because he loses out in the duel and allows Watkins to come in-field, which compromises the defensive structure.
A number of our players in the defensive phase are weak at defending proactively because they've spent several years under managers who invited the opposition on to us and hence defending reactively became a norm for players like Lindelof. So if we want to transition into a team who wants to genuinely challenge for the big trophies, then we need players who are not only going to help us play on the front foot, with the ball, but also have the capability to defend proactively on the front foot. Which makes a big difference when defending a large space or in a 1v1 duel in a man to man press, with the aim of imposing one's own play style on the opposition.
There was other mistakes made, but you need your CBs to be strong, and in that scenario Lindelof was weak against Watkins and he failed to defend proactively.
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1. My post was an attempt to show you that team defending is not about asking others to baby sit, it is how you should defend as a team. My attempt obviously didn’t work and I was probably expecting too much from you.Why are you using quote that refer to Goal 3 for my argument about the Goal 1 when I have only been talking about Goal 1? You thought you can trick me eh?
The issue about Lindelof on the first goal is not about team defending but it's about his liability in using the advantages in that situation. He had two advantages:
Lindelof had 8 seconds to decide what to do for the team when he was tight with Watkins but failed to read the situation that he must take his man down if he can't win the ball back. On contrary, Martinez and Shaw, Casemiro, and Eriksen had much more difficult situation as they had to make a decision in a split second. If Lindelof acts like a passenger by expecing his team mate to babysitting him after given so much time and being 40 yards from the goal, then he's useless for the sake of the team because what is he going to do if he only has split second and being 10-20 yards from the goal?
- 8 seconds
- Doesn't need to be worry of making foul in 40 yards from the goal
This is what Varane and Lisandro would do if he was given 8 seconds and being 40 yards from the goal. ETH, Casemiro, Martinez, and Eriksen thought Lindelof would do the same but in reality they didn't know Lindelof is too weak and too soft with no aggression.
2. This is not a difficult situation. Look at the photos; a gaping hole with a totally absent midfield. Eriksen did not have a difficult situation at all. He had, like you wrote, 8 seconds to move a few metres. Now there is no midfield whatsoever. This has been a problem for a long time.
3. Posting pictures where Varane had to take a yellow against Liverpool doesn’t even have anecdotal value. If you had watched the game against Villa you had seen that Martinez was overplayed and dribbled past several times without taking fouls. That doesn’t mean his team mates were baby sitting him or he was passing responsibility, only that they work as a team.
I think this is a problem we have in general. We often press with one man, which makes it really ineffective. And I don’t mean that everybody must press but more players must move in to a position where they contribute to the press by cutting out passing options for the opponent.
i think we are all in agreement that he’s a prime candidate for replacing
Varane might conceded a foul or Lisandro might be dribbled passed but they showed commitment, effort and aggression to stop forward whether it fails or success. And I will appreciate it. But Lindelof showed nothing to prevent Watkins making the playmaker for that first goal. If it was his best effort then he was fecking too weak and soft, which is why we criticised him. Players can make mistakes despite of their effort and that’s fine, but what lindelof did was being liability. Hence why the point is not about defending as team.
Let's accept that it was a very well worked movement. The Villa movement was very good off the ball. That final movement to move inside and then move out was fantastic.
Let’s continue to accept these results then
Nar, let’s expect our CB’s to get tighter, win balls and not allow strikers to turn and bully them.
We could still get somewhat decent fee for him and thankfully he didn't cost 50m.
Maguire will be harder to move anyway and there's one more thing - Without Maguire, the physicality of our defense will be culled to absolute minimum. Safest option would to find someone first and then sell remaining ones.
Tbh never thought finding these days a solid backup defender in mood of Silvestre or Brown will be that hard for United. Varane's injuries will probably push Ten Hag to find someone from higher shelf.
I’d sell both if I could 25m for Linda and 35m for Harold
For 60m we could bring in a decent pair as backup or one good one and Tengi as young backup
If Ten Hag will be forced to sell Bissaka on top of that, perhaps there could be enough funds even for Timber plus one, but scouting must be on point this time. Lucky deal in mood of Eriksen on a free would help a lot.
Still not sure how much funds will be splashed on goalscorer, but at some point it has to be done before the club will get stuck in EL for longer.
Man Utd 4:2 Aston Villa
The usherette - this way to the goal - let me show you.
Can't take him any more. So pathetic. Every single game. Sick of it.
Last post in this thread - until he annoys me again - the next game he plays.
Can't take him any more. So pathetic. Every single game. Sick of it.
Last post in this thread - until he annoys me again - the next game he plays.
Him constantly backing off away and away can probably only inspire Russian soldiers right now.
I am officially on the back of Geebs' bandwagon. Sick and tired of him being a pussy.
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