[criticalanalysis]

On the penalty incident. He jumps and misses the ball from the corner, clatters into Shaw and another player (I think was Sancho).

Did it again in the last 5 mins on the half way line. Prime position to win a header, somehow ducks under it and lets West Ham counter attack us. Luckily Shaw covered and we got it away.

So weak aerially today and passive with his defending nad passing. Took an absolute age to get the ball out of his feet and then just gave square passes to AWB or Shaw time and time again. Also, whenever AWB was 1 vs 1 on the channel, he let him hang out there on his own whilst he retreated to the penalty box.

I know Shaw played that bad pass that lead to the goal but Lindelof had a chance to step up and clear the ball or tackle before Benrahma's goal. Instead he retreated several yards and allowed him to take that shot. Yes it's completely on De Gea but it's just one of many incidents with Lindelof's passive and poor play. He saw his centre back lose the ball and instead of trying to take responsibility and possibly turning that danger into an advantage by intercepting, he just concedes territorial possession ALL the fecking time. That's not even mentioning the potential penalty. Two big mistakes (passing straight to Brighton) in two consecutive games that he's got away with.

I'm sure there will be plenty of 'he didn't make a mistake, he wasn't that bad' comments, which is not true and besides the point. Nothing ventured, nothing gained with this guy.

Better passer than Martinez, best third centre back in the league, would replace a fit Varane, his previous 200+ games does not count because Maguire

 

[MagooDad]

know Shaw played that bad pass that lead to the goal but Lindelof had a chance to step up and clear the ball or tackle before Benrahma's goal. Instead he retreated several yards and allowed him to take that shot. Yes it's completely on De Gea but it's just one of many incidents with Lindelof's passive and poor play. He saw his centre back lose the ball and instead of trying to take responsibility and possibly turning that danger into an advantage by intercepting, he just concedes territorial possession ALL the fecking time.

He made some bad mistakes and also in that situation, but him not tackling was honestly not one of them. If he commits there he has to be 110% certain to get the ball or we end up with either a free Benrahma or a red card. Waiting him out or forcing him to shoot, since AWB was almost catching up was the right decision.

His big mistake in that situation was that he did not force Benrahma enough to the left were he would have to take the shot with his weak foot and in total line of sight for De Gea.

 

[golden_blunder]

So was his few good games a purple patch?

 

[criticalanalysis]

He made some bad mistakes and also in that situation, but him not tackling was honestly not one of them. If he commits there he has to be 110% certain to get the ball or we end up with either a free Benrahma or a red card. Waiting him out or forcing him to shoot, since AWB was almost catching up was the right decision.

His big mistake in that situation was that he did not force Benrahma enough to the left were he would have to take the shot with his weak foot and in total line of sight for De Gea.

Tackle is one of the examples I used but there's plenty of middleground between taking one action that will either be make or break. Nobody is saying he needs to clean out the player with a sliding tackle. He could have commited and stepped up to jostle, nick the ball away, follow him closer and/or shepherd him more aggressively. Instead he just backtracked 5-10 yards with little to no pressure. The whole point though, is not to micro analyse this one incident but to highlight that this is his baseline tendency and that we suffer most of the time because of his passive nature. 6 years and 200+ games, not an isolated incident.

He's had a few decent games and people came out praising him like he's some new defender we've found, that can suddenly be counted on and he's been underrated or something.

 

[KjaAnd]

Made big mistakes, didn’t contribute to our attacking play and let Benrama get his shot off due to his usual ultra passive style of defending. Also, he lost an aerial dual to Jarrod Bowen. Another player not fit to wear the shirt.

 

[kundalini]

A bit fortunate not to concede a penalty for the strange handball. Struggled against Antonio's physicality. Our build-up play was painfully slow today.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

A bit fortunate not to concede a penalty for the strange handball. Struggled against Antonio's physicality. Our build-up play was painfully slow today.

Nah not having that. There’s a clear change this season on what is and isn’t a pen for handball, that wasn’t even borderline, he was drawing his arm back towards his body.

It’s one of the few things refs/VAR are consistent with this season. Look at two similar incidents in Bournemouth Arsenal at the Emirates for instance, those were worse.

 

[Ekeke]

Backs off top much in general, got away with a handball where his arm came out from his body and then it hit his hand more centrally. Twice in 2 games now where he's got away with a big error that could have easily resulted in a goal but didnt. Not sure his luck is going to last at this rate.

Nah not having that. There’s a clear change this season on what is and isn’t a pen for handball, that wasn’t even borderline, he was drawing his arm back towards his body.

It’s one of the few things refs/VAR are consistent with this season. Look at two similar incidents in Bournemouth Arsenal at the Emirates for instance, those were worse.

Its the complete opposite. He has his arms already inside the shape of his body, then he moves his arm out of that position which would make it a clear penalty if it hits the area his arm moves out to. It actually hits his hand around his pectoral, but while he has moved his arm outside his body now his hand is still there and thats what has contact with the ball. So in this case the problem is that he has moved his arm out of the way but fails to stop the ball hitting his hand. A little bit more movement with his hand outside the width of his body and it wouldnt have made contact. He would have just chested the ball normally.

Alternatively if the ball had been pulled back further then his arm movement would have been problematic because its moved into the position of a normal handball outside of the body and blocking where the ball regularly goes to avoid the player to get the cross in properly. Thats not what happened on this occasion so he was free to swing his arm out and make sure theres no contact with his hand. But he doesn't make it, his hand is still in while he has that swinging motion and controls the ball with it.

 

[Lyng]

So was his few good games a purple patch?

The whole team was utter shite. He wasnt good but honestly our worst culprits in this match where De Gea and our attacking players.

 

[golden_blunder]

The whole team was utter shite. He wasnt good but honestly our worst culprits in this match where De Gea and our attacking players.

I know they were but last 2 matches we’ve seen clear errors that he’s got away with. We’ve seen a revert to passive defending and slow ass passing. We were told in this thread how it was all maguires fault and now he’s so much different because Maguire isn’t playing. I am wondering what it takes for it to finally be Lindelofs responsibility for his errors

 

[Lyng]

I know they were but last 2 matches we’ve seen clear errors that he’s got away with. We’ve seen a revert to passive defending and slow ass passing. We were told in this thread how it was all maguires fault and now he’s so much different because Maguire isn’t playing. I am wondering what it takes for it to finally be Lindelofs responsibility for his errors

I think you focus to much on the Maguire thing. Yes a lot of us agree that him and Maguire is a match made in hell and given how everyone else in the back line turn to shite whenever Maguire is playing the blame gets put more on him.
Lindelöf, however, does have clear faults and isnt good enough to be a starter for us.
I still maintain he is a good bench option to have. Him playing this much is an issue though.

 

[criticalanalysis]

@GifLord clip from 85mins-ish of West Ham counter attack from a missed header?

 

[GifLord]

@GifLord clip from 85mins-ish of West Ham counter attack from a missed header?

 

[A-man]

The whole team was utter shite. He wasnt good but honestly our worst culprits in this match where De Gea and our attacking players.

Neither him, nor Shaw, nor our defensive midfield were great but we’ve conceded 2 goals in 2 matches: one handball penalty and one howler from DDG. Wouldn’t blame poor defence for the zero points.

 

[criticalanalysis]

Thanks mate.

Lindelof How does he miss that header?!

 

[golden_blunder]

Thanks mate.



Lindelof How does he miss that header?!

Saw a player running towards him and bricked it

 

[criticalanalysis]

Saw a player running towards him and bricked it

This clip also perfectly illustrates the differences between a proactive and 'brave' approach to defending when Shaw intercepted the through ball. I put the word in quotation because even then it's not that particularly brave. It is for someone like the Swedish captain though.

Last few mins of the game: Shaw saw Lindelof fecked up, tracked the runner and also then stepped up to make a decisive action against the guy with the ball. It was a 2-on-2 situation.

First few mins of the game: Lindelof saw Shaw fecked up and backtracked 10 yards to concede a soft shot. It was a 3-on-1 situation in our favour.

Not going to blame him for the loss but I can blame him for being so passive and poor.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Thanks mate.



Lindelof How does he miss that header?!

That’s a hell of a fecking stretch as a reason to criticise him. It was a fecking awful “pass” from Martial he had to deal with and it looks like the main reason he couldn’t head the ball was because it was looping over his head, directly into the path of the West Ham player.

 

[criticalanalysis]

That’s a hell of a fecking stretch as a reason to criticise him. It was a fecking awful “pass” from Martial he had to deal with and it looks like the main reason he couldn’t head the ball was because it was looping over his head, directly into the path of the West Ham player.

It wasn't a good pass from Martial but it was a routine header. Heck he could have chested it if he was confident enough; in fact the other player did! The reason why he couldn't head it or it looks like a 'looping' ball is because he barely moved towards it or jumped (he took a small hop); really bad feet movement and judgement of the ball in the air. It was literally 2 or 3 steps forward from where he was to where he attempted that atrocious header and where the ball landed.

It's a stretch to defend him in this particular situation.

 

[Berbasbullet]

It wasn't a good pass from Martial but it was a routine header. Heck he could have chested it if he was confident enough; in fact the other player did! The reason why he couldn't head it or it looks like a 'looping' ball is because he barely moved towards it or jumped (he took a small hop); really bad feet movement and judgement of the ball in the air. It was literally 2 or 3 steps forward from where he was to where he attempted that atrocious header and where the ball landed.

It's a stretch to defend him in this particular situation.

Am i going blind or was the ball actually behind him? It looped over his head didn't it? Making it impossible to chest. I might be wrong though.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It wasn't a good pass from Martial but it was a routine header. Heck he could have chested it if he was confident enough; in fact the other player did! The reason why he couldn't head it or it looks like a 'looping' ball is because he barely moved towards it or jumped (he took a small hop); really bad feet movement and judgement of the ball in the air. It was literally 2 or 3 steps forward from where he was to where he attempted that atrocious header and where the ball landed.

It's a stretch to defend him in this particular situation.

I think you’re struggling with watching 3D events on a 2D screen.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Am i going blind or was the ball actually behind him? It looped over his head didn't it? Making it impossible to chest. I might be wrong though.

You’re right. That’s exactly what it looks like.

 

[criticalanalysis]

Am i going blind or was the ball actually behind him? It looped over his head didn't it? Making it impossible to chest. I might be wrong though.

I think you’re struggling with watching 3D events on a 2D screen.

Like I said, it looked like he was 'struggling' or it was 'impossible' because he didn't move forward or commit to the header. Look at the pitch lines from where Lindelof is, when the ball leaves Martial's feet to where he attempted the jump!





If you can't expect your defender to win a lofted ball in the air that is literally 2 steps from your direction then yes forgive me for having standards. If the other player won it by a header i.e at the highest point in the air then fair enough but he fecking chested it; he covered 5-10 yards more on him. There's no excuse for him losing that ball. Absolute bizarre takes.

 

[golden_blunder]

Btw it was a peno according to Dermot Gallagher


DERMOT'S VERDICT: "Lindelof is extremely lucky. It should have been a penalty."

West Ham were denied what looked like a penalty on the stroke of half-time when Lindelof's handball went unnoticed by on-pitch referee Peter Bankes and VAR Stuart Attwell decided not to intervene

DERMOT SAYS: "I think he panics and moves his arm towards the ball. If a penalty was given he couldn't argue. The VAR decided it had hit him on the hand and the hand was in front of the body, so it wasn't outstretched. But what you would say is when you throw your arm like that and move it towards the ball, if you get punished you can't argue.
"The feedback from the PGMOL was that although his arm was out, it hit his hand and his hand was in front of his body, so they were of the opinion that he had focused on that, whether that's right or wrong I don't know.

"The handball rule is really tough. They felt his hand was in front of his body and wasn't making his body bigger, but I think because of the way he moved his arm towards the ball, that's what sold it to me that it should have been a penalty."

Stephen Warnock: "It's a clear penalty and you can understand why David Moyes and West Ham were so angry at the decision. The referee on the pitch should have been given the power to go over to the monitor and look at it again."

 

[Berbasbullet]

Like I said, it looked like he was 'struggling' or it was 'impossible' because he didn't move forward or commit to the header. Look at the pitch lines from where Lindelof is, when the ball leaves Martial's feet to where he attempted the jump!





If you can't expect your defender to win a lofted ball in the air that is literally 2 steps from your direction then yes forgive me for having standards. If the other player won it by a header i.e at the highest point in the air then fair enough but he fecking chested it; he covered 5-10 yards more on him. There's no excuse for him losing that ball. Absolute bizarre takes.

Im not convinced my take is that bizarre. still don't see how he chests it. but im also not that bothered either way.

 

[A-man]

That’s a hell of a fecking stretch as a reason to criticise him. It was a fecking awful “pass” from Martial he had to deal with and it looks like the main reason he couldn’t head the ball was because it was looping over his head, directly into the path of the West Ham player.

No point arguing. Red Cafe chuckle brothers blame him for everything and have never seen a missed header before. Apparently Shaw’s handball was Lindelof’s fault as well.

 

[criticalanalysis]

Im not convinced my take is that bizarre. still don't see how he chests it. but im also not that bothered either way.

My bad, you got caught in the crossfire. Your post is not particular bizarre. It's possible to chest it as long as he jumped high enough or moved towards it faster. If the other player can chest it at barely standing height then you would think a defender could chest if he had enough momentum from a jump. Anyways, that's beside the point, he should have dealt with that with minimum fuss.

 

[Gabriel Djemba-Bebe]

Btw it was a peno according to Dermot Gallagher


DERMOT'S VERDICT: "Lindelof is extremely lucky. It should have been a penalty."

This is the same former ref who was known for making numerous glaring errors, including only gave Ben Thatcher a yellow card after he intentionally elbowed Mendes and caused him to have a seizure on the pitch. I wouldn't give any credence to his verdicts. Lindelof's arm was tucked in. It didn't extend beyond the natural silhouette position. By the current laws of the game, it wasn't a handball.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

No point arguing. Red Cafe chuckle brothers blame him for everything and have never seen a missed header before. Apparently Shaw’s handball was Lindelof’s fault as well.

That was ridiculous too. Although Shaw’s handball was nowhere near as bad an error as Lindelof’s handball last night.

 

[lsd]

This is the same former ref who was known for making numerous glaring errors, including only gave Ben Thatcher a yellow card after he intentionally elbowed Mendes and caused him to have a seizure on the pitch. I wouldn't give any credence to his verdicts. Lindelof's arm was tucked in. It didn't extend beyond the natural silhouette position. By the current laws of the game, it wasn't a handball.

It was very much a handball. I don't like giving handballs as penalties but that was as nailed on a penalty as I've ever seen.

Theres no way you could call that a natural movement

 

[Gabriel Djemba-Bebe]

It was very much a handball. I don't like giving handballs as penalties but that was as nailed on a penalty as I've ever seen.

Theres no way you could call that a natural movement

He didn't make his body bigger. He actually tucked his arm in. How is that a nailed on penalty?

 

[criticalanalysis]

Funny how his defenders always move the goalposts 'you blame him for everything' or 'the defence was bad....but the attack was worse...this game is not on Lindelof'.

No mention of the fact that he's criticised because he's poor in what he does on an individual level, in his very own performance thread. Shocking stuff.

 

[MagooDad]

This clip also perfectly illustrates the differences between a proactive and 'brave' approach to defending when Shaw intercepted the through ball. I put the word in quotation because even then it's not that particularly brave. It is for someone like the Swedish captain though.

Last few mins of the game: Shaw saw Lindelof fecked up, tracked the runner and also then stepped up to make a decisive action against the guy with the ball. It was a 2-on-2 situation.

First few mins of the game: Lindelof saw Shaw fecked up and backtracked 10 yards to concede a soft shot. It was a 3-on-1 situation in our favour.

Not going to blame him for the loss but I can blame him for being so passive and poor.

That is by far is biggest weakness (no pun intended). The two times he have lived up to the hype of his potential is playing next to Luisão and Andreas Granqvist. Both were extremely aggressive and proactive, large but consistent and limited defenders, so it played off well against Lindelöf timid style of play, were his duty was cover, control and restart the play with the ball. All things he is great at.

The by far biggest problem with him as the 3rd choice defender is that the only player he really compliments is Varane. And together with Maguire he almost becomes Championship quality and he manages to make Maguire worse as well. A 3rd choice should adapt to any of the CBs.

 

[Cassidy]

Should sell him in the summer along with Maguire

 

[Oranges038]

Like I said, it looked like he was 'struggling' or it was 'impossible' because he didn't move forward or commit to the header. Look at the pitch lines from where Lindelof is, when the ball leaves Martial's feet to where he attempted the jump!





If you can't expect your defender to win a lofted ball in the air that is literally 2 steps from your direction then yes forgive me for having standards. If the other player won it by a header i.e at the highest point in the air then fair enough but he fecking chested it; he covered 5-10 yards more on him. There's no excuse for him losing that ball. Absolute bizarre takes.

No excuse for not winning that header.

But that's Linfelof all over, tidy enough on the ground, weak as piss in the air. Lacks the aggression needed to be a top class defender.

 

[Onerealunited]

He has had a good run of games lately. If that is to increase his value and get some buyers to be interested in him we should definitely consider to cash in on him. He has been here for several years now and we have had enough games to watch whether he is good enough for us or not

 

[Vidyoyo]

Was good again today

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

Solid.

 

[mu4c_20le]

I really don't remember Wolves doing anything. Decent but easily outshined by Varane and Shaw.

 

[NoPace]

Good first half on the ball. I think Ten Hag will want to keep him as he's comfortable with him on both sides of CB and he understands possession play quite well for a CB, despite his other flaws.