No. Telles defended well and had a couple of balls into the box that Maguire got on the end of. Are you joking?
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No. Telles defended well and had a couple of balls into the box that Maguire got on the end of. Are you joking?
He's been pretty good lately but if somebody is having a shot you can be sure Lindelof will be side on with his arms behind his back.
He just doesn't like the getting in the way part of defending.
He just doesn't like the getting in the way part of defending.
I thought he backed off too far for Tielemans goal, he could have tried to play Vardy offside and look to stop Tielemans. Other than that, there was one moment when he carried the ball forwards a bit then gave away possession, allowing Leicester to counter, before Wan-Bissaka rescued the situation. Rest of the time he performed well.
I disagree. There was not much more he could’ve done in that situation, he had to do something about Vardy’s run. Fred or Matic should have been tighter to Tielemans. And why was the other Central Defender, Maguire, out on the left wing instead of being in a more central Position to help with Vardy’s run?
What an odd thing to complain about. Also looking at shots blocked stats, he blocks the same amount of shots as Maguire, Stones and Vestergaard. He blocks more shots than Ruben Dias, van Dijk, Thiago Silva, Zouma, Evans and Rüdiger to name a few. PL seems to have a lot of defenders who don’t “like the getting in the way part of defending”.
Is it odd to want a centre to do make himself big, do his best to block a shot or cross?
He did it earlier in the game as well, he makes himself as small as possible when the oppo shoot.
I think he could have got in the way of that shot yesterday had he actually tried.
To be fair he has been more aggressive and braver the last few weeks but it's a part of basic defending that doesn't come naturally to him.
I don't mean it is odd that you want that. A CB who throws himself on the ground to block shots is entertaining and in some occasions a good way to defend. It was you complaining about it that was odd.
1. Lindelof has played CB in 21 PL matches this season. How many goals did we concede that would have been avoided if he had thrown himself on the ground to cover?
2. As shown, he blocks more shots than Ruben Dias, van Dijk, Thiago Silva, Zouma, Evans and Rüdiger. Do you draw the same conclusion about them, that they don't like that part of defending?
3. Just like many other modern CBs, Lindelof covers one side of the goal, and allows a relatively free shot (with low risk for deflections)in the other. It has worked very well with DDG both this season and even better last season. It is especially effective in situations where the attacker can first be forced out to the side. it is more difficult in a situation like yesterday.
4. He likes to stay on his feet if it is possible. In this occasion he covered the first post but stayed on his feet to also be prepared for the pass to Vardy, as there was no other defender left on that side. I really don't see how throwing himself on the ground would be the best thing to do in this situation.
edit: Watch 14 seconds in to this video and you will see there can also be benefits with staying up. In this situation he managed to recover and block the shot. A defender who always throw himself to block would probably seen his team concede in this situation. You can't watch the embedded video, you'll need to visit youtube via the link.
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It shows “passhun” and that hes “hard”.
I'm not saying he should fling himself to the floor. There's a middle ground between that and basically getting out of the way of a shot or cross.
I think you're overcomplicating this.
They are about to shoot or cross. Do you want your centre back to try and get in the way of it or not?
Does a centre back turning away, going side on, with hands behind back suggest to you a guy who's doing what he can to stop that shot?
My point was that he gets in the way more often than many of PL’s absolute best CBs, so I don’t see how this is an issue with him.
Well I think it's about not 100% relying on stats and watching the game. All sorts of variants play a part, City have way more possession so you'd expect their defenders to make less blocks etc etc.
For instance he might have made as many blocks as any other player yesterday. I don't know.
But do you think he did everything he could yeaterday for their 2nd? I think he made himself small. The opposite of what I'd like from a CB in that position.
I wouldn't have mentioned this if I though it was a one off mistake. That happens. I've always noticed it though, at times he allows strikers to get their shots and crosses off. Almost like he's more concerned about giving away a pen.
Suppose it's down to taste, what kind of defending you like. It's not for me though.
You are right it is maybe not fair to compare with Ruben Dias who doesn't have to do much defending compared to Lindelof, but I also compared with Maguire, Zouma, Rüdiger, Evans... none of them has blocked more shots than Lindelof.
I could understand your complaints if it was a problem. But Lindelof has started 21 PL matches and we have conceded about 8 goals in open play in those matches. I can't remember if any of them could have been blocked, maybe, but overall it seems as the strategy to stay on his feet and cover one side and leave the other for the goalkeeper works ok for him.
Regarding the goal yesterday. He could probably done things better, but I don't know what. He is basically alone with Vardy in the box while there are United players running with Tielemans . He could step in and stop him or throw himself in to a block, but that would mean Vardy had been unmarked. It looks like he divided his duty between defending against Vardy and Tielemans and thought the other defenders would handle Tielemans better. The shot was close to the post, but this is actually still the goalkeepers corner as Lindelof covers the other post.
For anybody who doesn't think defenders often cover one side and give a clear shot at the other post, this was one point Rio complained about after the match. That Lindelof covered the left post, and that Henderson could have moved more towards the other.
Cheers mate
You are right it is maybe not fair to compare with Ruben Dias who doesn't have to do much defending compared to Lindelof, but I also compared with Maguire, Zouma, Rüdiger, Evans... none of them has blocked more shots than Lindelof.
I could understand your complaints if it was a problem. But Lindelof has started 21 PL matches and we have conceded about 8 goals in open play in those matches. I can't remember if any of them could have been blocked, maybe, but overall it seems as the strategy to stay on his feet and cover one side and leave the other for the goalkeeper works ok for him.
Regarding the goal yesterday. He could probably done things better, but I don't know what. He is basically alone with Vardy in the box while there are United players running with Tielemans . He could step in and stop him or throw himself in to a block, but that would mean Vardy had been unmarked. It looks like he divided his duty between defending against Vardy and Tielemans and thought the other defenders would handle Tielemans better. The shot was close to the post, but this is actually still the goalkeepers corner as Lindelof covers the other post.
For anybody who doesn't think defenders often cover one side and give a clear shot at the other post, this was one point Rio complained about after the match. That Lindelof covered the left post, and that Henderson could have moved more towards the other.
Cheers mate
Good post. I disagree but well argued.
As I mentioned I'm not particularly driven by stats. However I looked at Premierleague.com for shots blocked. Forty defenders listed, the lowest has 11 blocks, Lindelof has 14. The highest has 30 something. So he is at the bottom end statistically according to them.
So I'm not sure where your stats are from but those backup what I've been watching for a few years. A defender who dodges the basic nitty gritty part of defending.
This thing of blocking one post whilst the goalkeeper covers the other. I don't think this was even a thing, didn't exist in fans minds, until Rio mentioned it the other day. Now it's gospel. As a defender, a guys about to shoot, just do what you can to get in the way. Simple.
All I'd say is watch him closely. Think about for example Sevilla's first goal in the away leg last year. How he just allowed the guy to get his cross in. He does this frequently. When a shot comes in he makes himself small.
I think it's very noticeable. A shame because I think this passiveness will end up costing him his starting spot.
First of all, the list you are referring to has 150 defenders. There are many defender well below 12 blocks. Rüdiger and Zouma both have 8 as example. The list I was referring to is basically the same, but I listed blocks per game instead of total amount. I also excluded full backs.
Blocking one post and let the goalkeeper take other is not something Rio invented three days ago. It’s been around for a long time. I have discussed this many times before, and it is very clear that’s how Lindelof often covers shots.
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/victor-lindelöf-2019-20-performances.448770/post-24999021
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/victor-lindelöf-2018-19-performances.440064/post-23852437
And yes, if we go back in time to previous seasons we can find goals where he could have blocked. But I wouldn’t say it is a problem really. A bigger problem is that he is not aggressive enough in certain situation.
I can also find goals where the block ended up being deflected in to the goal. That is one of the benefits of forcing a clear shot to the keepers corner.
Below 40 its fullbacks or guys who barely play. Using your Rudiger and Zouma examples, they haven't played as much as Lindelof. So using stats in this way is borderline pointless.
However for that stat he is very much at the bottom end of centre backs who play regularly.
Fair play on you previously highlighting Lindelofs approach to shot blocking and being consistent in your belief it's the way to defend.
Obviously I disagree, I'd rather my centre half just attempt to stop the cross or shot rather than banking on the keeper making a save. It's something he does that ties in with the rest of hia game, a passive approach, more concerned with getting turned or giving away a pen than getting on the front foot and defending.
Anyways I guess we'll see this summer and next season as to how rated he is by the staff.
What does he do during defensive set pieces? He's usually nowhere to be found.
Even more strange because he seems very active during offensive ones.
Even more strange because he seems very active during offensive ones.
The best way is to look at shots blocked per match. If we take the top 7 teams in the PL, and look at their CBs you will see that Lindelof doesn't block less than the others. It seem to be imaginary.
Shots blocked per match:
Dier 1.1
Alderweireld 1
Dawson 0.9
Stones 0.7
Lindelof 0.7
Maguire 0.7
Fofana 0.7
Ruben Dias 0.6
Thiago Silva 0.6
Zouma 0.5
Cresswell 0.5
Ogbonna 0.4
Fabinho 0.4
Evans 0.1
Matip 0
None of the top teams have their defence depending on their CBs blocking a lot of shots.
If you personally prefer a CB that is trying to block the shot, instead of forcing the shooter to shot in the goal keeper's corner, I can't really argue with that as that is your preference. I'm just referring to how it looks in modern football and my personal opinion is that it is very effective in many cases.
Left the Swedish setup and returned to Manchester for personal reasons? Is his wife pregnant?
According to the Swedish media, it's due to his back problems and United and Sweden are in agreement that he should be matched sparingly (only when it matters).
Since the only game we have left this International break is a friendly against Estonia, which he will play no part of, I think they agreed to send him home to recover in Manchester to be fit for the upcoming games.
He played very well and untroubled in the last two games against Georgia and Kosovo as Sweden kept a clean sheet for both games.
No need to worry unless you are a Lindelöf hater of course
Yabba dabba do!According to the Swedish media, it's due to his back problems and United and Sweden are in agreement that he should be matched sparingly (only when it matters).
Since the only game we have left this International break is a friendly against Estonia, which he will play no part of, I think they agreed to send him home to recover in Manchester to be fit for the upcoming games.
He played very well and untroubled in the last two games against Georgia and Kosovo as Sweden kept a clean sheet for both games.
No need to worry unless you are a Lindelöf hater of course
only kidding
According to the Swedish media, it's due to his back problems and United and Sweden are in agreement that he should be matched sparingly (only when it matters).
Since the only game we have left this International break is a friendly against Estonia, which he will play no part of, I think they agreed to send him home to recover in Manchester to be fit for the upcoming games.
He played very well and untroubled in the last two games against Georgia and Kosovo as Sweden kept a clean sheet for both games.
No need to worry unless you are a Lindelöf hater of course
About that. Considering how he's been played this season, I don't think the United medical team listens.
Still, it's nice to enjoy a bit of peace and quiet in this thread. From what I noticed the better Lindelof plays, the quieter the thread.
I'm beginning to think our medical team is a bit shit.
What is the long term solution here ? Will an op sort it out ? If not and he continues to manage it through injections etc he will no doubt pay for it later on in life
The only thing he needs right now is a good 2 month rest. As long as it's not ligament damage, the body tends to heal itself.
The problem is that Lindelof is playing way too many games and isn't being rotated enough. If the condition goes untreated/unaddressed then he risks of developing a chronic condition which can only mean that he will lose a good yard of pace, some of his already not imposing physical prowess and he might even become injury prone.
If memory serves Rio had a back injury and he was never the same again. Here's a small excerpt from that incident:
Full article
Let's hope Lindelof can avoid that. The last thing we need is to add another injury prone CB to our collection.
According to the Swedish media, it's due to his back problems and United and Sweden are in agreement that he should be matched sparingly (only when it matters).
Since the only game we have left this International break is a friendly against Estonia, which he will play no part of, I think they agreed to send him home to recover in Manchester to be fit for the upcoming games.
He played very well and untroubled in the last two games against Georgia and Kosovo as Sweden kept a clean sheet for both games.
No need to worry unless you are a Lindelöf hater of course
He played really well against Kosovo but was pretty shit against Georgia. Helander was the better CB that game. But most of the players where shit that game tbh. It was the right decision to send him back instead of playing the game against Estonia
Don't think he was at fault in the Georgia game, the lack of support from midfield was a shambles and the main reason why the game was so back and forth throughout.
Although I must say I think Sagnol has done well with his Georgia team, they seem really up for it and he's playing to their strengths. Stole a point from Greece yesterday.
Yeah Georgia has played well. They have a fast team and our midfield got overrunned. But he was not good imo. Sloppy passes, some bad decisions.
I'd imagine it's more a case of we have a match on Sunday and we want everybody back to prepare.
It’s just that it said for “personal reasons”
Someone said something about Lindelof and defensive dead balls and it reminded me of what Strachan said about Claus Lundekvam and offensive dead balls:
Strachan saw John Terry's goal and said he was impressed that Terry goes up expecting to score. He contrasted this to Claus Lundekvam the Saints central defender who goes up for every dead ball and never ever looks remotely like scoring. He said if there was a dead body lying in the penalty area the ball would hit it on the head several times a season which he said is more than Lundekvam can manage. He said referees should book Lundekvam for timewasting every time he goes up for a corner.
Quite funny actually, Strachan’s a funny guy.
But re Lindelof, he is nowhere to be seen on defensive dead balls. What does he actually do? Hide? It seems like it’s always Maguire heading it away, sometimes Pogba. A new CB who’s a monster in the air like Harry would go a long way in fixing our defensive dead balls issues.
Strachan saw John Terry's goal and said he was impressed that Terry goes up expecting to score. He contrasted this to Claus Lundekvam the Saints central defender who goes up for every dead ball and never ever looks remotely like scoring. He said if there was a dead body lying in the penalty area the ball would hit it on the head several times a season which he said is more than Lundekvam can manage. He said referees should book Lundekvam for timewasting every time he goes up for a corner.
Quite funny actually, Strachan’s a funny guy.
But re Lindelof, he is nowhere to be seen on defensive dead balls. What does he actually do? Hide? It seems like it’s always Maguire heading it away, sometimes Pogba. A new CB who’s a monster in the air like Harry would go a long way in fixing our defensive dead balls issues.
Lol
That's not fair. He has had his fair share of defensive headers.
Yes Strachan is very funny. The best commentary I ever heard was his about Arsene and the water bottle at OT.
That's not fair. He has had his fair share of defensive headers.
Yes Strachan is very funny. The best commentary I ever heard was his about Arsene and the water bottle at OT.
He's on the back post zone.
Stats from Zonal Marking (the site) show that 78% of goals from corners come from the near post. Another 14% come from the middle.
Those numbers alone show why he's rarely involved.
The bigger question is why we put one of our better aerial players (which he is, despite popular opinion...statistically top 20% of all centre backs in Europe) in a zone that rarely sees any action...while having players like Rashford and Martial on the near post, and Fred in the central zone.
The only goal I can actually remember Lindelof being part of is this one...and I'm not sure he could have did anything better here:
1:43
I think the answer to that question might please the Lindelof «haters»..
Interesting post nonetheless, thanks.
An recurrent back injury. Being forced to stand in no man's land for corners. It's amazing really how well Lindelof plays in spite of such sabotage. A real testament to the man.
Making a decent amount of headers, which he does do now and pretty much has done since that purple period on his second season where he was winning more headers than his partner, doesn't mean that his weakness is not still in the air. He can head the ball 8 times and if the 9th one he does a poor job and he heads it weakly into the danger zone it doesnt matter that he was okay for the previous 8, a mistake is a mistake. And he makes more mistakes with the ball in the air than on the floor.
Man Utd 2:1 Brighton
good performance today along with Maguire. If he steps up another level it'd save us a fortune to spend on the next CB
I thought he was good today.
Is it my imagination or is he becoming a bit more aggressive?
Is it my imagination or is he becoming a bit more aggressive?
Decent today
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