[lex talionis]

If we can grab Upamecano for his buy out clause of 42 million Euro's we'd be absolutely sorted, and for a relatively cheap price all things considered. Long shot considering everyone will no doubt be after him but...

If we actually grab Upamecano for 42m I’d give it serious consideration. But this is not an area in the squad I’m all that concerned about.

I’m less convinced by the pairing of McFred to allow us to do anything more than help us grind out draws, which at least I think we need to start moving beyond. If there’s a proper CDM get table for 60m to me that’s a more pressing matter than another CB.

I was also in the Sancho at all costs camp, but knowing what I know now, much better to break the bank on Grealish, who’s leadership and decision making we could use up front. And then see what we have in Diallo, who may make the match day squad soon.

 

[macheda14]

If we can grab Upamecano for his buy out clause of 42 million Euro's we'd be absolutely sorted, and for a relatively cheap price all things considered. Long shot considering everyone will no doubt be after him but...

All reports coming out say we aren’t interested in him anymore.

 

[Chief123]

I think this is a little bit of a myth people use to discredit our defence. If we played like this, how come we score so many goals (only Liverpool better)? Also, you make it sound as the the two midfielders take care of all the defence and the defenders can just sit back and watch the game. We can quite easily see in the stats that they have been busy despite playing in a team that is leading the league. Harry Maguire has won by far most aerials of all the CBs in the PL and has the most interceptions as well. He is also high in blocks. If we look per game he is still very up in numbers and Lindelof and Bailly average for a PL CB. This is in a team that won most matches and not a weak team who is under constant attack. So I think we can debunk this myth that the midfield is doing all our defending.

Completely missed the point. Never mind.

 

[A-man]

Completely missed the point. Never mind.

Really? You wrote
“He’s basically created a shield for the defence which means the defenders will naturally look better when they are less exposed.”

Then you can explain what you mean if you mean something else.

 

[Chief123]

Really? You wrote
“He’s basically created a shield for the defence which means the defenders will naturally look better when they are less exposed.”

Then you can explain what you mean if you mean something else.

When you come out with self made nonsense like this...

So I think we can debunk this myth that the midfield is doing all our defending.

It shows you’ve completely missed the point and are the type of poster where it’s a waste of time responding to.

 

[A-man]

When you come out with self made nonsense like this...

It shows you’ve completely missed the point and are the type of poster where it’s a waste of time responding to.

You are not the first who talk about how the defence is looking better because they are “shielded” by two DM. I just showed that the defence is doing the work. Again, if you mean something else why not explain what you mean?

 

[Ekeke]

I'm gonna guess that Lindelof will be shown to be first choice by Ole's selections. I don't agree with it but I was happy with his last performance and Lindelof over Bailly is the pattern we've seen till this point so I don't see it changing unless he plays badly for a certain amount of games.

 

[Chief123]

You are not the first who talk about how the defence is looking better because they are “shielded” by two DM. I just showed that the defence is doing the work. Again, if you mean something else why not explain what you mean?

I didn’t think I needed to explain it further, but for some reason you took from my post that I was stating the midfield was doing all the defending. That clearly wasn’t my point. You just seemed to have an agenda of showing that Maguire has been amazing and that’s why we look better defensively.

At no point did I suggest the defenders are not playing well. Far from it. I think they are playing a lot better than I expected them to do. Maguire has been brilliant last few games regardless of who he’s partnered with. But that wasn’t my point. The post I originally responded to was questioning whether there was some tactical change to explain why we’ve looked better defensively. I was highlighting that yes the fact that Ole had switched to playing Fred and Mctominay together as a duo in front of the defence after our terrible start which was compounded with the 6-1 thrashing against spurs. We were all over the place defensively at that time and the defence was being exposed at will by opponents running directly at the heart of our defence with very little protection. Since Ole switched to those two to sit in front of the defence, our results started to improve and we started conceding less key chances to opponents. Ole stuck with the duo and it has become his go to choice for any crunch game.

To suggest that our defensive performances haven’t improved because of them helping the defence by sitting in front of them and offering them protection would just be naive. There is no way a combination of Pogba and Matic offers the same protection as Fred and Mctominay. I’m not even a big fan of the Mcfred combination. Pogba and Matic are technically more gifted than the other two and are better all round players. But there’s a reason why they aren’t the first choice in big games at the moment. People can pretend Fred and Mctominay just run around and don’t do anything to help the defence which is just silly. If one doesn’t realise why Ole is choosing McFred duo ahead of anyone else then I question their understanding of the game. That’s not to say our defenders haven’t performed brilliantly. But having team mates play in front of you who give you some protection doesn’t half help.

 

[A-man]

I didn’t think I needed to explain it further, but for some reason you took from my post that I was stating the midfield was doing all the defending. That clearly wasn’t my point. You just seemed to have an agenda of showing that Maguire has been amazing and that’s why we look better defensively.

At no point did I suggest the defenders are not playing well. Far from it. I think they are playing a lot better than I expected them to do. Maguire has been brilliant last few games regardless of who he’s partnered with. But that wasn’t my point. The post I originally responded to was questioning whether there was some tactical change to explain why we’ve looked better defensively. I was highlighting that yes the fact that Ole had switched to playing Fred and Mctominay together as a duo in front of the defence after our terrible start which was compounded with the 6-1 thrashing against spurs. We were all over the place defensively at that time and the defence was being exposed at will by opponents running directly at the heart of our defence with very little protection. Since Ole switched to those two to sit in front of the defence, our results started to improve and we started conceding less key chances to opponents. Ole stuck with the duo and it has become his go to choice for any crunch game.

To suggest that our defensive performances haven’t improved because of them helping the defence by sitting in front of them and offering them protection would just be naive. There is no way a combination of Pogba and Matic offers the same protection as Fred and Mctominay. I’m not even a big fan of the Mcfred combination. Pogba and Matic are technically more gifted than the other two and are better all round players. But there’s a reason why they aren’t the first choice in big games at the moment. People can pretend Fred and Mctominay just run around and don’t do anything to help the defence which is just silly. If one doesn’t realise why Ole is choosing McFred duo ahead of anyone else then I question their understanding of the game. That’s not to say our defenders haven’t performed brilliantly. But having team mates play in front of you who give you some protection doesn’t half help.

There have been plenty of posts where people make claim that our defence is so useless that it needs two DM to do the job for them. Now when you explained what you mean, it is clear I made the wrong assumption about you and I apologise.

I agree to some extent but not fully. Playing McFred was clearly a large part of the solution, but Maguire getting back on form, and actually most of team getting back on form, was just as important.

Playing McFred is not necessarily a much more defensive approach. It is strengthening the central defence but that gives the possibility to play players who don’t participate much in defending, and to allow our FB to move forward more. If I understood Ole correct, he played Matic and Pogba against Burnley because he wanted some big strong midfielder who also could challenge in the air. Against Liverpool he said he wanted them to play so Pogba could play high up the pitch. With that setup we had two forwards plus two skilled midfielders who could join the attack.

 

[A-man]

We do play like this in terms of setup and it suits us because we're a counter attacking team, although it gives the front players a lot to do. With 2 DMs we invite teams forward. And then our players break on the counter.

I would agree that the 2 DMs have not done a minding job for the defenders, rather just running a lot in midfield.

But against Liverpool I can say it was noticable that the team did a much better job in general of covering with McTominay and Lindelof covering players on the right when AWB was up against the winger, and when Shaw was confronting someone Fred was tracking back with a runner. This is something that needed some improvement and against Liverpool it was there. Its something a lot of posters had blamed on the fullbacks when we kept having issues with those overloads earlier in the season, but our DMs and CBs should have been helping to cover them. The CBs did a bit, the DMs just stayed in front of the central defenders.

Yes the covering for the FBs worked excellent against Liverpool. As you say, this has been a bit of an issue before, especially at our right. AWB doesn’t have time to run home and Lindelof has to cover far out on the flank, if he doesn’t get help from a DM there will be an open space somewhere. Maybe it will also help with the issue that AWB has been dragged in to the centre. If there is already a CB plus a DM there is no need for him to leave his position.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

It will be very interesting especially since we face Liverpool on the weekend. Listening to OGS it sounds like Lindelof is no 1’for him if he is fully fit, but I can have misinterpreted him. This is what he answered when asked why Lindelof instead of Bailly vs Liverpool:

Victor has been training this week to get ready for this game, I just gave him the Burnley game off."

I think Ole thinks a lot about the opponent and not just about our best 11. Our best 11 can change depending on who we are playing and I think he takes that into consideration. I won't read too much into the FA Cup game though. I fully expect some squad rotation for that regardless of who we are playing...

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Can someone help me out here.

Is it just my bias against Lindelöf and his type of passive defender?

I thought he was wank, crap on the first goal, crap on the Milner chance. Everything is just so passive. When he finally took a yellow card I gave him a cheer as though he'd just scored the winner.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Not his best game... He just never looked comfortable at any point.

 

[MikeKing]

Can someone help me out here.

Is it just my bias against Lindelöf and his type of passive defender?

I thought he was wank, crap on the first goal, crap on the Milner chance. Everything is just so passive. When he finally took a yellow card I gave him a cheer as though he'd just scored the winner.

His terrible performances is overlooked and some see him as the future so yes, it's probably just our bias but he is a boring, pretty terrible defender overall. He is capable of having good games in a team setting, but he isn't a real defender.

 

[Bobski]

Maguire and Lindelof, just doesn't convince, Lindelof allows too much to develop at source, Maguire is prone to silly choices.

 

[A-man]

I think it was his worst game this season but still somewhat ok, which shows how good his consistency is. Thought the whole back line except AWB was worse than normal.

 

[Ekeke]

Not great but I did like him making the obvious foul and taking a freekick in the 85th minute or so, having tried to win the ball higher up the pitch. A sign of playing with a bit more aggression but also knowing that you can let the man get past you, you can let the ball get past you, but theres times when a yellow card is better than both getting past you. And that was the time

 

[ivaldo]

Can someone help me out here.

Is it just my bias against Lindelöf and his type of passive defender?

I thought he was wank, crap on the first goal, crap on the Milner chance. Everything is just so passive. When he finally took a yellow card I gave him a cheer as though he'd just scored the winner.

We look so much more controlled both off the ball and on with him in the team. He's very rarely out of position, he covers well for our other CBs, and he's as good as anyone playing our from the back.

Why we feel the need to micro-analyze his performances, I have no idea. It's baffling that we watched their midfield pick up the ball in an abundance of space with no press, watch Shaw lose his man for a free run in behind, and then decide that Lindelof is at fault for their first goal. Even for the Milner chance Firmino headers it onto Maguire's head to go in the opposite direction.

He's had better games today, but the glee some posters take finding any minute fault in his game (not saying that's you) is really quite disappointing to see.

 

[VeevaVee]

He's not the quality we need, that much is clear. Backup, sure.

 

[VeevaVee]

Maguire and Lindelof, just doesn't convince, Lindelof allows too much to develop at source, Maguire is prone to silly choices.

Agreed. Both can be decent, Maguire can be properly good, but both too prone to fatal errors/lack of organisation. It happens too often.

 

[MikeKing]

It's baffling that we watched their midfield pick up the ball in an abundance of space with no press, watch Shaw lose his man for a free run in behind, and then decide that Lindelof is at fault for their first goal.

It's not about putting blame on someone for the goal, It's just terrible defending.

 

[Polar]

Not a good game by Lindelof today. The first goal was on him and he struggled in general when LFC played quick passes.

 

[Kamprad]

I agree he had some bad situations but I don’t agree he feels uncomfortable. It’s the opposite for me. He feels more confident than before. Maybe too confident because he didn’t have a particularly good game.

 

[ivaldo]

It's not about putting blame on someone for the goal, It's just terrible defending.

Eh? That's literally what's happening.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

It's not about putting blame on someone for the goal, It's just terrible defending.

This.

I'm not trying to blame him, it's a cacophony of errors but his part in it was crap.

 

[kopviolator]

He's a better player then when he arrived. Looks wank too many times though.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

He's a better player then when he arrived. Looks wank too many times though.

Absolutely, night and day.

 

[criticalanalysis]

It's no wonder he has back problems..with the way he backs up and retreat at almost every opportunity.

Not proactive in the tackle on the ground, takes very little presure off the team with his lack of responsibility on the ball or and when he tries to do something off it, you had that yellow card at the end. It was a good foul to make but just goes to show, what happens when he passes the half way line i.e weak and out of his comfort zone.

Go rewatch Salah's 2nd goal, who or what space was he 'marking' or trying to 'defend'?

Was he the primary fault for the 1st and 2nd goal? No. Did he actually do anything to try to affect the outcome? No.

Maguire didn't have a great game but he looks shaky when he has a partner, who does the bare minimum.

@MikeKing said it best (albiet harshly) below after the Anfield game. The same opposition but this time we were playing at home with more iniative and one less DM. The result was that Lindelof looked all over the place when we actually want to play proactively.

When you sit very deep in the box and play with 2 tall defensive midfielders around without much hope of playing out from the back he can be decent. Not what we want at this club generally speaking. Had a good game besides wasting the ball, hoofing.

 

[el3mel]

Really poor defending in the first goal. I rate him higher than many here but he needs to have better awareness to cover for his lack of physicality problem.

 

[A-man]

Agreed. Both can be decent, Maguire can be properly good, but both too prone to fatal errors/lack of organisation. It happens too often.

I wouldn’t say they are prone to fatal errors. I think it is the opposite. If you remove set piece goals, where the whole team defends, they have probably been the CB pair that has conceded least goals in the PL. Incould be wrong but I think they’ve conceded 4, maybe 5 goals in open play in 13 PL matches this season. Last season was the same. So we could not say they are prone to fatal mistakes.

 

[VeevaVee]

I wouldn’t say they are prone to fatal errors. I think it is the opposite. If you remove set piece goals, where the whole team defends, they have probably been the CB pair that has conceded least goals in the PL. Incould be wrong but I think they’ve conceded 4, maybe 5 goals in open play in 13 PL matches this season. Last season was the same. So we could not say they are prone to fatal mistakes.

They seem to very easily get pulled into the wrong position, or not follow a man. I don’t have much confidence in them to be honest. Even though they can both have good games and good moments too

 

[criticalanalysis]

They seem to very easily get pulled into the wrong position, or not follow a man. I don’t have much confidence in them to be honest. Even though they can both have good games and good moments too

One wants to attack and win the ball aggressively. One wants to sit and cover.

It's worked thus far because we've so defensively resolute (as a team) but once the game stretches a bit, both their game drops but you can tell who's the weakest link is by virture of their lack of influence on the game.

 

[Ekeke]

He's a better player then when he arrived. Looks wank too many times though.

Well he did have the worst start I've seen from any United player so it would have been hard for him to go backwards

 

[thepolice123]

That through pass was 100% his ball. He was not prepared for it and got wrong sided.

 

[A-man]

They seem to very easily get pulled into the wrong position, or not follow a man. I don’t have much confidence in them to be honest. Even though they can both have good games and good moments too

I agree they did today. It was open at times and the full backs and midfield didn’t help much either. But if we look at the greater picture, I would say Lindelof /Maguire is probably the CB pair that makes least costly mistakes in the PL. And that is whatbis reflected in the few goals conceded in open play.

 

[charlenefan]

Neither CB looked convincing today but then they didn't have the security of the two DM's today

Hopefully Bailly was just rested and isn't injured

 

[Bobski]

I wouldn’t say they are prone to fatal errors. I think it is the opposite. If you remove set piece goals, where the whole team defends, they have probably been the CB pair that has conceded least goals in the PL. Incould be wrong but I think they’ve conceded 4, maybe 5 goals in open play in 13 PL matches this season. Last season was the same. So we could not say they are prone to fatal mistakes.

Why do you ignore the abysmal record in the CL when discussing their performance this season?

 

[Devil may care]

Solid outing, loved the little pull back he did to get a yellow and prevent their counter, we've lacked some of that savvy as Liverpool and City do it all the time.

 

[Ekeke]

I wouldn’t say they are prone to fatal errors. I think it is the opposite. If you remove set piece goals, where the whole team defends, they have probably been the CB pair that has conceded least goals in the PL. Incould be wrong but I think they’ve conceded 4, maybe 5 goals in open play in 13 PL matches this season. Last season was the same. So we could not say they are prone to fatal mistakes.

I dont think thats because of them. AWB and Shaw help our defence more than other teams. So they deserve a lot of the credit too

One example is that we're the team that gets beaten with the most dribbles per game in the league. AWB is a RB who wins a large majority of times when an opponent tries to dribble him.

So imagine what it would be like if we didnt have AWB reducing that threat and cancelling it out on the opponents left, while Shaw does a good job usually on the other side.

Our CBs still have to deal with plenty of the ball going into the box from out wide from overlaps or from deep without beating a defender. But theres some areas that our fullbacks shield them from. Some other teams have a DM shield them, like Ndidi at Leicester and Fernandinho on form for City in midfield. But from the fullbacks? The CBs are clearly helped the most by them out of the higher placed teams in the league.

Some of the credit obviously does go to Maguire and Lindelof together for the parts they do deal with. But they'd have twice as much to do with Alexander Arnold and Robertson to their sides

 

[criticalanalysis]

Go rewatch Salah's 2nd goal, who or what space was he 'marking' or trying to 'defend'?

Man Utd 2:2 Liverpool - Salah (58')

There you go everyone. Lindelof's reaction and defending there

Look at his first step, backwards and then proceeds to give Firminho all the fecking time to play a pass.

Any defender's natural reaction is to step forward, close the space and try to affect the situatuon yet he's on his heels and backs into his own box. How much more retreating or 'smart positional' play does he want to show there? Be in line with Henderson?

He has ELITE reading of the game when it comes to choosing the safest option and not getting involved but I've having none of this mythical crap being bandied around that he's a really good defender because of it.