Thought he did well. Think it helped that TAA and Robertson had the worst crossing performances of their lives and there werent many good balls into the box. Dealt well with the ball on the floor
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We were playing very well defensively against Liverpool and Lindelof did as well. Maybe we could have 'barely won' this game too but I'm not mad at the approach. Lindelof has a different profile to Bailly though I don't get why it has to be so difficult to admit that a player like Bailly, Van Djik, Fabinho, Koulibaly or even Aké could be a better partner to Maguire. We're fine defensively as a team, but certainly nothing more considering our aim is to have the best team so he is very upgradable and a 0-0 against Liverpool with Lindelof having a good game, on the ground, in the box, doesn't really change that because not every game is going to be like that.
To me he was our best player today. I do think Bailly complements Maguire better for some scenarios, but for a match like today, against City or other teams apt at dragging players out of positions with multiple movements, I think Lindelöf as of yet complements Maguire better. He reads the game and his teammates better IMO.
Good point. We look more composed as. A unit lately, which is good to see
Look, if we stay top of the league and play very defensive against every top team and Lindelof can stay disciplined and do his job for those games I'm more than happy with having him in the squad for a very long time.
Of course we can find a better partner for both Lindelof and Maguire, even that wasn’t what we discussed. Thing is it’s not so easy to upgrade as you try to make out. Yes the highly unavailable and also injured VvD would be an upgrade but not necessarily anybody else on that list.
I know. I struggle to come up with names that I'm interested in. A lot of the predicted greats have not made it and others like Koulibaly, Maguire, Van Djik are the ones that came of age a bit under the radar. It's maybe normal for CB's to become better with age and these days everyone have their eyes on young players so it could be about perception. At some point though there has to be an influx of great CB's, a generation where every alethic big guy just decide to play football and everyone gets the technical nous from training at an early age to make it. It's been a while since the last good batch of CB's.
I think it is not a “poor batch”, just more and new demands on the defenders. CBs, FBs, and even goal keeper got new tasks but still had to keep the old ones. Many defenders are more all rounded today and much more involved in possession. 10 years ago a good team bought a good CB. Today they need to find one that suit the way they want to play. A CB playing for City is not necessarily one that would be successful at Burnley.
That's a good point and the change in direction is relatively new. Considering a 16 year old is born around 2005 there was a different style back then, and even from 2013 when they were around 8 the football was quite different from now and certainly also the coaching at that level. The intensity, possession focus and now quick counter attacking football with the high aggressive pressure is different from 10 years ago even. These trends come and go but we have to give time for these new generations to come through. A good batch will come in sooner or later.
There was a period everyone wanted to be a 10, and a period without really good strikers coming through, and you just had Messi and Ronaldo. Then you get someone like Haaland and you just go, wow that's just a classic great striker. Also all of a sudden you get an influx of classical quick wingers being adapted to the new style instead of preferring the slower paced nr.10's in those roles.
From a stylistic viewpoint regarding the future of defenders I think Van Djik is a great example. Quick, Strong, Good on the ball. All very relevant to the modern game. More so than before. Bailly is another one. Physically sublime capable of shutting down his side with pace and aggression, in ways that you rarely got from your oldschool slow CB's. When he played his first few games I thought this is how new CB's are going to become. Like Vidic/Rio hybrids with acid laced in their veins. A CB that jumps so high he has to try and put his head under his shoulders to win a header. It rarely works for Bailly but I support the forward thinking element of it.
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Very good post
A little bit of competition can do wonders for players performance
I thought Lindelof was excellent yesterday, as was the whole defensive unit. He never struggles when the game is on the ground. It’s nice to see that we can choose between him and Bailly depending on the assignment. I was relieved to see Lindelof start yesterday, not because Bailly has been poor, but you need cool heads against Liverpool away. Decision justified with a complete shut out. Pool didn’t get a sniff.
the amount of complaining from people here and twitter cos Lindelof started 
I think this is fair. Though saying that, when it was in the air, he won every duel I believe so thats a bonus.
I think this is fair. Though saying that, when it was in the air, he won every duel I believe so thats a bonus.
I think we believe there are not so many good CBs today as it was was before, because when we watch every replay in slow motion we find small errors here and there. But the role has developed and they have to manage so many more things. They are not so specialised anymore. I would say CBs like Laporte and Lindelof would struggle in PL 10 years ago. VvD is probably one of the few who would excel in both modern and “old” football. Bailly’s weaknesses imo are his awareness, reading of the game, and decision making. This is the main reasons why I prefer Lindelof as partner to Maguire, because I think he is better at what’s going on behind them and covers well when Maguire attack the ball. Bailly is more an individual player than Maguire and Lindelof who are more team players in the sense that they really use each other to work as a unit. Could also be because they’ve played 1.5 season together and Bailly only an handful of games, of course. All these thoughts about Bailly are on unjust my own thinking from what I’ve seen, I don’t make claims “this is how it is”.
Thanks mate
He is pretty much average of CBs in the PL. This is an area where he has improved. He now also challenges for more aerials. I extracted stats for offensive and defensive aerial duel attempts and it looked like this (2 last matches not included)
Aerial duel attempted
Offensive aerials
Maguire 1.8 per game
Lindelof 0.8
Bailly 0.0
Defensive aerials
Maguire 3.75 per game
Lindelof 3.5
Bailly 2.75
The reaction were not surprising to me, but still strange in a way. Most people who have seen United know that Lindelof was on really good form before the injury took over and also know he is normally good with this type of forwards. I think it is simply down to that a lot of people like Bailly.the amount of complaining from people here and twitter cos Lindelof started
It will be interesting to see how Ole pick his CBs now. We face Liverpool in six days in the cup.
There was this one clearance which was excellent
People were complaining about him being selected and he was arguably our MOTM.
I can understand people preferring one over another.
But I did see things like 'Lindelof is a clown' etc which is just OTT.
the amount of complaining from people here and twitter cos Lindelof started
I think this is fair. Though saying that, when it was in the air, he won every duel I believe so thats a bonus.
Yeah, I suppose what I am getting at is that I wouldn't always be confident if it came to a battle with someone like Chris Wood.
Lindelof very rarely lets us down, and actually has it in him to be aggressive and on the front foot, which makes his occasional bouts of weakness even more strange.
He has become a very competent and solid option for us.
I thought starting him over Bailly was an error, but he was one of our best performers yesterday (along with Shaw).
10 years ago Barcelona still bought and produced that type of player. City bought Kompany who was played in midfield and then put at CB and was playing there 10 years ago. 5 years ago Daley Blind was our CB and we had Blackett in the team at times because he was left footed.
Its mostly the same teams with the same pre-requisite as before. There are more teams at least in the premier league that are using 3 CB systems than there were back then so thats a change. But most teams that were looking for ball playing CBs 5 years ago are still doing the same now. More teams are trying to play out of the back but at least in the premier league there arent many teams that are sacrificing someone who doesnt defend as well for someone who is good on the ball.
I'd say Wolves are one of those teams. Coady needs help with defending but is good at playing long passes. He was in a 3 man defence with Boly 3 years ago just as he is today. And Boly is an aggressive ball winning CB. Today they have Saiss next to them and he was previously a holding midfielder but hes pretty good in the air too. So I'd say they've loosened up in the past 3 years a bit, but they still have that 1 proper CB who likes to win the ball and will win headers in their mix.
I think most teams are asking those same CBs they would have had before to try and play out from the back more. And thats one of the reasons why almost every team in the league has had some embarassing cock ups giving the ball straight to the opposition near their own goal and conceding at least once if not more.
If he plays like that regularly we won't need to be complaining - I think it's fair to say he doesn't reach that level often which is why many of us do.
There's never been any personal agenda against him, we as united fans just want the best for the team - if him and bailly competing against eachother means higher performance levels then great.
There's never been any personal agenda against him, we as united fans just want the best for the team - if him and bailly competing against eachother means higher performance levels then great.
I agree.There are quite a few teams it there who probably be better if they defended instead of tried to play out from the back, so to say. We have also seen famous CB screw up because of trying to play their way out in absurdism instead of clearing it. Varane is the first that comes to my mind.
There have been club that wanted ball playing CBs before but one of many differences is that CBs must be able to handle intense press. If they don’t, the team has to play hoofball in half of their PL matches.
Its credit to Ole, he has in the last few weeks rotated well depending on the opposition. With this game, he knew we will defend in numbers, Lindelof when we defend as a team is a very good defender.
It's only when he is left exposed his frailties are there to be seen, so I am not too fussed as long as going into certain games, Bailly comes back in.
Not sure I agree, depending on what you mean by hoofball. I cant think of many teams who arent trying to pass it long rather than just hoofing it.
Also even teams like City are playing it long. That was one of the tactics against us, Dias was trying to play long balls over the top for Sterling and City were winning 2nd balls. I saw him do it with a little pressure on him, but also when nobody was within 10 yards. The leftback Zinchnko was pinging cross field diagonals to the right wing etc. So even City allow for playing long and following up to pick up the move in the final third. Theres obviously a mix. They dont do that every time but they average 79.4 long passes completed per game, 2nd only to Liverpool in the league.
Rodri averages 14.8, Ruben Dias averages 13.7 and Walker 10.1 per game. Then comes the keeper with 7.38 per game.
What is the exact distance that is considered a "long pass" ? I dont know. But Maguire averages 10.2, Fred 8.47 and Bruno 8.29 as the most of our regular starters. We obviously have a lot less of the ball and a lot less passes in general but it would seem like even a team like City will try to play long more often than we do per game.
I wasn't surprised by his selection. It's not these games where he looks vulnerable, it's the likes of Burnley where you know he's going to be targeted.
He had a really good performance, and if him, Bailly and Maguire can stay fit then that's three really great options that offer something different as a pair for different situations.
He had a really good performance, and if him, Bailly and Maguire can stay fit then that's three really great options that offer something different as a pair for different situations.
I have to raise my hand as well.
Looking at our squad needs, I just see the wisdom of spending 70+m for a top, top CB, unless our warchest has suddenly become unlimited. Bailly and Lindelof are both more than adequate and Tuanzebe is developing very nicely.
Sorry, I wasn’t very clear. With hoof all I meant basically players who can’t stand press but instead make some kind of mix between clearance and chance longball. I did not mean teams who can handle press and pick a long ball without being stressed.
I think the definition for a long ball is a pass longer than 25 yards. I haven’t really looked much at long ball stats so don’t have much add. But it is interesting how different out CBs are in that aspect. Maguire always aim for the left flank to open up and Lindelof seems to be looking for the centre forward.
If we can grab Upamecano for his buy out clause of 42 million Euro's we'd be absolutely sorted, and for a relatively cheap price all things considered. Long shot considering everyone will no doubt be after him but...
Lindelof for the big games where we sit back and Baily for the rest of the games where we're more susceptible to counters?
The tactical adjustment came shortly after we got pumped 6-1 by Tottenham. Ole started using Fred and Mctominay together in every big game since then. He’s basically created a shield for the defence which means the defenders will naturally look better when they are less exposed.
That might work for the remainder of the season, but at the risk of being called old fashioned, I do think we need a consistent centre back pairing beyond this season. It's not good for the team if you're chopping and changing the centre backs every few games.
I have always thought the same, but am not so sure any longer. Yes if the same pair play all the time, they still better as a unit, bu the risk is that you get very vulnerable when one or two CBs get injured. You will always hesitate to rotate players. City won the PL 2018/19 with 4 CBs who all played more than 10 games.
I'd be happy enough giving both Lindelof and Bailly games, assuming Lindelof continues to play like this past weekend. Bailly clearly needs to be playing a decent amount to be in form, doesnt need to be every game but every couple and hes shown he can be an asset. Hopefully that competition keeps Lindelof on his toes a bit like Shaw and Telles. If Lindelof has problems then he can just backup Bailly. But I've been fairly happy with his past couple of performances and theres no more injury excuse. If he plays well he can play.
Ole made a great call to start him. Both him and maguire were perfect on the night. Great consistency from him yet again.
I think this is a little bit of a myth people use to discredit our defence. If we played like this, how come we score so many goals (only Liverpool better)? Also, you make it sound as the the two midfielders take care of all the defence and the defenders can just sit back and watch the game. We can quite easily see in the stats that they have been busy despite playing in a team that is leading the league. Harry Maguire has won by far most aerials of all the CBs in the PL and has the most interceptions as well. He is also high in blocks. If we look per game he is still very up in numbers and Lindelof and Bailly average for a PL CB. This is in a team that won most matches and not a weak team who is under constant attack. So I think we can debunk this myth that the midfield is doing all our defending.
Solskjaer's used Fred and McTominay loads, it hasn't always made the CBs look this good. When Pogba and Matic play together our defence looks just as solid, which suggests a system change rather than a personnel change.
We do play like this in terms of setup and it suits us because we're a counter attacking team, although it gives the front players a lot to do. With 2 DMs we invite teams forward. And then our players break on the counter.
I would agree that the 2 DMs have not done a minding job for the defenders, rather just running a lot in midfield.
But against Liverpool I can say it was noticable that the team did a much better job in general of covering with McTominay and Lindelof covering players on the right when AWB was up against the winger, and when Shaw was confronting someone Fred was tracking back with a runner. This is something that needed some improvement and against Liverpool it was there. Its something a lot of posters had blamed on the fullbacks when we kept having issues with those overloads earlier in the season, but our DMs and CBs should have been helping to cover them. The CBs did a bit, the DMs just stayed in front of the central defenders.
With Bailly healthy, my guess is Ole feels that Lindelof should partner Maguire in matches that we will be conceding possession and playing a low block (Lindelof better positionally) and Bailly will play against the teams in which we will boss possession and play a higher line. I suppose that theory will be put to the test in the match tomorrow vs Fulham...
It will be very interesting especially since we face Liverpool on the weekend. Listening to OGS it sounds like Lindelof is no 1’for him if he is fully fit, but I can have misinterpreted him. This is what he answered when asked why Lindelof instead of Bailly vs Liverpool:
Victor has been training this week to get ready for this game, I just gave him the Burnley game off."
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