[Eddy_JukeZ]

Honestly, I think he's been awful for a long time now.

The fact that he's directly played a key role in our last 5 goals conceded is hilarious. All the same faults too. Him being a pansy.

 

[Glideman]

We need to start Bailly because honestly, Lindelof is just not good enough.

 

[Red71]

Like I said I’ll leave it, your obviously very triggered and ranting.

In fairness, it’s only opinions. You have no idea whether Mengi would sink or swim if he was thrown in to the 1st team...it’s not always obvious how talented some players are. Some just have it. Anyway, Ole is obviously keeping a close eye on him in training and talking him up so he could be closer to a starting place than we know.

Being as this is the Lindelöf thread, I would just say that something needs to be done with him and soon because good record or not for the unit last season, he is a liability and is going to continue to be targeted as things stand. Opposition players and managers sniff this sort of thing out unfortunately.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

1 v 1 only VVD has a better % success rate.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

1 v 1 only VVD has a better % success rate.

Because Lindelof refuses to tackle

 

[romufc]

1 v 1 only VVD has a better % success rate.

I watched Lindelof and Maguire closely, the difference between VVD and Lindelof is massive.

VVD will engage and force the attacked to change direction or go back, Lindelof will back off until the penalty area then there is a pass or a corner.

Difference is VVD wins the ball back higher up, Lindelof concedes a corner / scoring chance.

 

[Mercurial]

1 v 1 only VVD has a better % success rate.

VNL is a stat-padder deluxe, half of his forward passes are useless too.

 

[A-man]

Because Lindelof refuses to tackle

Still Lindelof tackled 33% more than VVD last season.

 

[gorky_utd]

He is good at nothing. Even the much talked about passing aspect of his game is horrible. All he does is to play a safe 5 yard pass to Maguire or the defensive midfielder. I have never seen him play a long range diagonal pass to a winger. Utterly useless player.

 

[Ekeke]

1 v 1 only VVD has a better % success rate.

A coward will have a pretty good fight record

 

[Ekeke]

Still Lindelof tackled 33% more than VVD last season.

most of VVD's several different partners tackled more than both of them or maguire. As long as its covered by the duo its fine

 

[VivaRonaldo85]

Another shocking example of our poor quality scouting of players. Lindelof is a solid enough lower half league defender, you know, would do a job at Southampton or Newcastle for example. But never should he be a starting CB for Man Utd.

To be fair, what other CB options does Ole have? Bailly a sick note and very rash, Jones a sick note, Smalling out of favour and seemingly on the move, Rojo a sick note and very rash, Tuanzebe potential but a sick note. Two priorities must be RF and CB before we address the other tissues with the squad......

 

[A-man]

most of VVD's several different partners tackled more than both of them or maguire. As long as its covered by the duo its fine

Agree. Behind “never-dribbled-stats” are always a game style where the CB doesn’t dive in to 50/50 tackles.

 

[Ekeke]

Agree. Behind “never-dribbled-stats” are always a game style where the CB doesn’t dive in to 50/50 tackles.

Yep. Lindelof usually goes in when theres a very good chance to win the ball and when he does that he has a good success rate as you'd expect. But when he doesnt feel like he has the advantage he tends to back off and other players like Wan-Bissakka, Fred or Maguire will then see the player isnt being confronted and they're far more likely to go in for a challenge that might fail. But even doing that means the opponent has to do something to beat them and that pressure can cause misscontrol, a bad touch, a bad decision etc which is why someone needs to do it even if it you don't always win the ball. When you don't make challenges and just back off the attacker doesnt have to do anything to make ground and thats not good enough. Make them do something good to get past you and open up a good chance, dont just back off and they still get their chance

VVD taken in isolation isnt the type of CB to be going in for too many of those challenges either. But he's aggressive and strong in other areas like in the air and making lots of clearances where its reasonable to expect his partner takes care of being the more aggressive tackler. With Lindelof his partner has to be the more aggressive tackler, stronger in the air and make a good amount of clearances. Thats the difference between VVD not being an aggressive tackler and Lindelof not being an aggressive tackler - what they bring overall as strengths and weaknesses

 

[A-man]

Yep. Lindelof usually goes in when theres a very good chance to win the ball and when he does that he has a good success rate as you'd expect. But when he doesnt feel like he has the advantage he tends to back off and other players like Wan-Bissakka, Fred or Maguire will then see the player isnt being confronted and they're far more likely to go in for a challenge that might fail. But even doing that means the opponent has to do something to beat them and that pressure can cause misscontrol, a bad touch, a bad decision etc which is why someone needs to do it even if it you don't always win the ball. When you don't make challenges and just back off the attacker doesnt have to do anything to make ground and thats not good enough. Make them do something good to get past you and open up a good chance, dont just back off and they still get their chance

VVD taken in isolation isnt the type of CB to be going in for too many of those challenges either. But he's aggressive and strong in other areas like in the air and making lots of clearances where its reasonable to expect his partner takes care of being the more aggressive tackler. With Lindelof his partner has to be the more aggressive tackler, stronger in the air and make a good amount of clearances. Thats the difference between VVD not being an aggressive tackler and Lindelof not being an aggressive tackler - what they bring overall as strengths and weaknesses

It’s different styles. I don’t see any problems with a player that stalls the forward to allow the rest of the team to be back in position. It is often more safe than tackles. Actually I thought Smalling also adopted that tactics in his game in Italy. He is was often backing from the attacker. We could see how this also is reflected in his stats, where Smalling tackled less compared to earlier years and now has the same stats as Lindelof (0.8 tackles per game).

Some people seem to think that backing it is a Lindelof thing, and if we only get Bailly or Smalling, they would never do that. But Bailly does it, too. Look at 16:35 from today’s match as one example.

 

[Ekeke]

It’s different styles. I don’t see any problems with a player that stalls the forward to allow the rest of the team to be back in position. It is often more safe than tackles. Actually I thought Smalling also adopted that tactics in his game in Italy. He is was often backing from the attacker. We could see how this also is reflected in his stats, where Smalling tackled less compared to earlier years and now has the same stats as Lindelof (0.8 tackles per game).

Some people seem to think that backing it is a Lindelof thing, and if we only get Bailly or Smalling, they would never do that. But Bailly does it, too. Look at 16:35 from today’s match as one example.

You dont want either of the extremes. You dont want a player who sees the ball and at no point considers biding time. But you also dont want someone who will always back off. It depends on the situation and most of the time there's enough times where a player can get in and make 1 or 2 tackles safely robbing the opponent of the ball in a match. But not if they back off 90% of the time regardless of the situation.

Also a tackle doesnt mean going to ground. You can bide time by staying on your feet ready to make the tackle when the chance is there. You don't need to back away unless you're scared the opponent is going to go past you with ease

 

[Adam-Utd]

1 v 1 only VVD has a better % success rate.

A perfect example of why pure stats will never work in football.

as Many others have said though his jockey backwards and don’t engage style is exactly why it’s so high.

while sometimes its a viable way of defending against somebody faster or with quick feet, it’s not the way it should be every time.

 

[A-man]

You dont want either of the extremes. You dont want a player who sees the ball and at no point considers biding time. But you also dont want someone who will always back off. It depends on the situation and most of the time there's enough times where a player can get in and make 1 or 2 tackles safely robbing the opponent of the ball in a match. But not if they back off 90% of the time regardless of the situation.

Also a tackle doesnt mean going to ground. You can bide time by staying on your feet ready to make the tackle when the chance is there. You don't need to back away unless you're scared the opponent is going to go past you with ease

Absolutely , the best is if the player can switch between the styles and do what is most needed and suitable for the situation.

 

[criticalanalysis]

I'm saying he's only good when his team has like 95% possession of the game and he needs to do feck all if it ain't obvious from the second part of my post.

my bad, was trying to get my comment in and completely missed that.

It’s different styles. I don’t see any problems with a player that stalls the forward to allow the rest of the team to be back in position. It is often more safe than tackles. Actually I thought Smalling also adopted that tactics in his game in Italy. He is was often backing from the attacker. We could see how this also is reflected in his stats, where Smalling tackled less compared to earlier years and now has the same stats as Lindelof (0.8 tackles per game).

Some people seem to think that backing it is a Lindelof thing, and if we only get Bailly or Smalling, they would never do that. But Bailly does it, too. Look at 16:35 from today’s match as one example.

Are you still trying to peddle this myth that Lindelof is some elite backing off master and chooses the best option every time and is incredibly efficient with his defending? Nobody is saying 'don't make an over eage tackle and sell yourself short'. Everyone is saying 'don't back off like a pussy and actually try to affect the situation'.

Can you explain the first goal conceded against Seville and Palace? This is a pattern of absolute clear deficiency. It's remarkable you're attempting to lump Bailly into this. He may have backed off a couple times in today's game but he also closed down every channel ball and absolutely leathered the opposition or the ball in multiple other situations. Something Lindelof does not do period.

 

[A-man]

my bad, was trying to get my comment in and completely missed that.



Are you still trying to peddle this myth that Lindelof is some elite backing off master and chooses the best option every time and is incredibly efficient with his defending? Nobody is saying 'don't make an over eage tackle and sell yourself short'. Everyone is saying 'don't back off like a pussy and actually try to affect the situation'.

Can you explain the first goal conceded against Seville and Palace? This is a pattern of absolute clear deficiency. It's remarkable you're attempting to lump Bailly into this. He may have backed off a couple times in today's game but he also closed down every channel ball and absolutely leathered the opposition or the ball in multiple other situations. Something Lindelof does not do period.

Bailly is not lumped in to anything. It was an example of another CB back tracking even against a team which is one of the worst in the Championship. It’s a common thing to do. Even Smalling has started to do it. Not unique to Lindelof.

Explain the Sevilla goal? You’ve seen havent you? Lindelof covered for AWB along the side, failed to cover the pass, AWB failed to follow his man who got a free run and could hit a cross where 3 United players in the box failed to clear it.Especially Williams totally missed his man.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Because Lindelof refuses to tackle

Based on a policy of containment. If opponents beat the press containing a threat is more advantageous.

However it’s absolutely not true that he doesnt tackle. He does and you won’t find a single data source to prove he is tackling any less than “elite” CBS.

He’s a very good defender for those that understand defending in a system. Again I don’t know people’s understanding of coaching a defensive system but Lindelöf is very good. Not world class but very good and it’s frustrating that ill educated criticism is levied at him so often.

Still Lindelof tackled 33% more than VVD last season.

Wouldn’t surprise me if true.

A perfect example of why pure stats will never work in football.

as Many others have said though his jockey backwards and don’t engage style is exactly why it’s so high.

while sometimes its a viable way of defending against somebody faster or with quick feet, it’s not the way it should be every time.

If he never engages why does he have 221 defensive pressures (VVD 133) 55 tackles and interceptions (VVD 54) etc.

I suspect you’ve fallen foul of accepting a narrative rather than critically analysing.

 

[Adam-Utd]

If he never engages why does he have 221 defensive pressures (VVD 133) 55 tackles and interceptions (VVD 54) etc.

I suspect you’ve fallen foul of accepting a narrative rather than critically analysing.

Because our defence has to work a lot harder than the Liverpool defence, pretty obvious. Their midfield and attack win the ball a lot before it even gets to their defence, or a long ball is swept up by Allison.

in no shape or form is Lindelof anywhere near Van Dijk i'm afraid. Swap them and the teams would be drastically different.

 

[415]

Finally people are realising that he is nothing more than a squad player. As a striker there is nothing at all to fear about coming up against Lindelöf.

At the world cup two years ago Granqvist was Swedens best defender he was holding Lindelöfs hand. That says a lot about Lindelöf because Granqvist has never been a good center back.

People are saying that he is a very good defender but not elite to be honest he is not even a good defender. He has made a lot more mistakes than Smalling and Smallings been with us for over 9 years now.

 

[BlahRules]

Next season we should try to sell this useless man while clubs believe he has some talent.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Because our defence has to work a lot harder than the Liverpool defence, pretty obvious. Their midfield and attack win the ball a lot before it even gets to their defence, or a long ball is swept up by Allison.

in no shape or form is Lindelof anywhere near Van Dijk i'm afraid. Swap them and the teams would be drastically different.

So you acknowledge our defence has to work harder than others so surely the fact we have conceded so few goals is testament to the fact something has to be working?

I’ve come to accept that I’m in the minority of those who see him as a very good CB not an average one like Jones for example.

Of course I’m not claiming he’s as good as VVD but what I am saying is that the criticism is often misjudged and that actually he’s a good complement to Maguire.

To make him a better one you’d want more pace and a better ball carrying ability too.

 

[Bondi77]

Even just on the evidence of this game I would partner Bailly with Maguire over Lindelof whom I think would just get bullied by Championship and League 1 strikers.

 

[Deleted 112447]

Still Lindelof tackled 33% more than VVD last season.

He was a lot better last season then people give him credit for but he has issues and has become a lighting rod for venting. He is not decisive in key moments and allows shots and crosses and not fast enough to complement Maguire, not his fault but it is what it is. I think he would be a better back up to Maguire then a partner.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

I'm pro Ole but it worries me that he rates Lindelof.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Based on a policy of containment. If opponents beat the press containing a threat is more advantageous.

However it’s absolutely not true that he doesnt tackle. He does and you won’t find a single data source to prove he is tackling any less than “elite” CBS.

I like you put "elite" in inverted commas as if other CBs being better at defending than our non defensive CB is some sort of myth. It's probably the thought process that gave birth to that rubbish "hipster CB" thread.

Yes, we all know its a policy of containment. Quality CBs tend to have more than their bag than containment though. Lindelof is a backup CB and far too incapable of imposing himself to be the first choice we want.

 

[Adam-Utd]

So you acknowledge our defence has to work harder than others so surely the fact we have conceded so few goals is testament to the fact something has to be working?

I’ve come to accept that I’m in the minority of those who see him as a very good CB not an average one like Jones for example.

Of course I’m not claiming he’s as good as VVD but what I am saying is that the criticism is often misjudged and that actually he’s a good complement to Maguire.

To make him a better one you’d want more pace and a better ball carrying ability too.

Compared to Liverpool yes, but they're a lot more organised than us as a team and press a hell of a lot better.

Lindelof plays better when the team is more compact, but the issue is Ole wants to play a more gungho approach that gives more space, and that's where he struggles.

For me the issue is he's just strictly average in all deparments. he's average height, average speed, he's not bad at timing tackles but hardly reads the game like Cannavaro, and then you add in his preference for defending on the back foot and it's just a recipe that doesn't fit a high defensive line. He's also showed that when sitting deep he struggles on crosses against big strikers or opposition centre backs. I just don't see any situation that he can't be upgraded.

People say "but he's a ball playing centre back" - I've seen nothing special that he does on the ball to cover his defensive deficiencies.

The game against Palace was a great example of where he needs to improve;

1st goal he gets dragged out wide 1v1 with Schlupp and does nothing to effect the game, just runs along side him. He needs to either muscle him off the ball / unbalance him to stop him getting in his desired cross or tackle/foul him much earlier before they get close to the box.

His style of defending just says "do what you like and I hope you make a mistake" instead of taking the lead, he's the female in a ballroom dance.

The penalty I don't blame him for - ridiculous decision and he did his job fine.

3rd goal - He needs to be more decisive again. He's too slow to react to the ball inside which lets Zaha get to it first, but at this point he should probably back off and get behind him and stop him turning. Instead he tries to poke it away with a weak dangling leg and gets easily turned. Zaha then easily holds him off and Lindelof does nothing to make the shot difficult. He should be throwing himself in front of Zaha to try and block it, but just lets him get it away easily.

For me strikers must love playing against him and that's never a good sign.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Compared to Liverpool yes, but they're a lot more organised than us as a team and press a hell of a lot better.

Lindelof plays better when the team is more compact, but the issue is Ole wants to play a more gungho approach that gives more space, and that's where he struggles.

For me the issue is he's just strictly average in all deparments. he's average height, average speed, he's not bad at timing tackles but hardly reads the game like Cannavaro, and then you add in his preference for defending on the back foot and it's just a recipe that doesn't fit a high defensive line. He's also showed that when sitting deep he struggles on crosses against big strikers or opposition centre backs. I just don't see any situation that he can't be upgraded.

People say "but he's a ball playing centre back" - I've seen nothing special that he does on the ball to cover his defensive deficiencies.

The game against Palace was a great example of where he needs to improve;

1st goal he gets dragged out wide 1v1 with Schlupp and does nothing to effect the game, just runs along side him. He needs to either muscle him off the ball / unbalance him to stop him getting in his desired cross or tackle/foul him much earlier before they get close to the box.

His style of defending just says "do what you like and I hope you make a mistake" instead of taking the lead, he's the female in a ballroom dance.

The penalty I don't blame him for - ridiculous decision and he did his job fine.

3rd goal - He needs to be more decisive again. He's too slow to react to the ball inside which lets Zaha get to it first, but at this point he should probably back off and get behind him and stop him turning. Instead he tries to poke it away with a weak dangling leg and gets easily turned. Zaha then easily holds him off and Lindelof does nothing to make the shot difficult. He should be throwing himself in front of Zaha to try and block it, but just lets him get it away easily.

For me strikers must love playing against him and that's never a good sign.

The bold for me is the only valid reason for swapping him out for a pacier alternative but no such CB exists that is guaranteed to be better.

I don’t think we can change Lindelöf unless we change our holding midfielder too.

He actually enables the team to be compact and prevents a lot of counter attacks becoming serious threats with his containment.

 

[11101]

Based on a policy of containment. If opponents beat the press containing a threat is more advantageous.

However it’s absolutely not true that he doesnt tackle. He does and you won’t find a single data source to prove he is tackling any less than “elite” CBS.

He’s a very good defender for those that understand defending in a system. Again I don’t know people’s understanding of coaching a defensive system but Lindelöf is very good. Not world class but very good and it’s frustrating that ill educated criticism is levied at him so often.

Glad to see some fans do get it. Lindelof fits well into our team as he reads the game brilliantly and always plays with composure, everybody knows what he will do next. Maguire dictates the defensive line and is the one who steps up and engages when its time to do so. Lindelof's job is to read the game and shepherd the attackers to where our defence wants to defend from. Defending doesn't just mean tackling, many of the best defenders through history didn't do much of that. There is a risk if he gets isolated but Ole picks him because he can do the job he is asked to do and he doesn't need to make concessions to our style of play to accomodate him.

We can and should upgrade but he's the best we've got, barring some miracle that enables Bailly to stay fit.

 

[HowYouDoin]

We should offer Lindelof to Roma and other teams. He is the one that should go and Smalling should take his place. Smalling is much much better than Lindelof, I dont care how much football changes, defense is about defending and then all the other things and not like Lindeloff excels at anything really. He is just decent at most things which is not enough for a team that wants to be a top of the league etc.

 

[A-man]

Bounced back from the poor performance against Palace and was one of the better today. Played it safe.

Had a busy day if you look at the match stats:

8 clearances
4 interceptions
2 tackles
1 blocked shots
1 aerial

 

[Bebestation]

I'm still not happy about him.

He doesnt hold that defensive position like a CB does. He doesnt know how to spread the defensive line wider by owning the area he covers. He invites the attack on his side all the time. AWB had a poor game, but I can understand why a RB would be playing narrow because the guy always ends up cutting in to make a tackle before Lindelof does.

I'm not saying Maguire is amazing either - but he owns the position he plays in even if he gets beaten occasionally.

 

[Shimo]

He wasn't directly culpable for the goals but, saying he bounced back is very generous. He just wasn't the total disaster of the last week.

The ball playing defender gives the ball away cheaply deeply in our own half, then instead of booting the ball to the other end in the 95th minute, doesn't even get it to half way line and they come right back and score, as usual does his back off or stand back and hope someone else does the engaging the player, case in point one of the shots on the post.

Him next to Maguire just doesn't work. It should be him or Maguire.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

He wasn't directly culpable for the goals but, saying he bounced back is very generous. He just wasn't the total disaster of the last week.

The ball playing defender gives the ball away cheaply deeply in our own half, then instead of booting the ball to the other end in the 95th minute, doesn't even get it to half way line and they come right back and score, as usual does his back off or stand back and hope someone else does the engaging the player, case in point one of the shots on the post.

Him next to Maguire just doesn't work. It should be him or Maguire.

Agreed. This is Lindelof at his best. He’s never had any great games, this is as good as it gets unfortunately. At his best he’s a 6.5/10 footballer.

That’s not good enough.

On another note, he can’t grow a moustache and needs to give up on that as well.

 

[Van Piorsing]

Neverending story.

 

[#07]

Bounced back from the poor performance against Palace and was one of the better today. Played it safe.

Had a busy day if you look at the match stats:

8 clearances
4 interceptions
2 tackles
1 blocked shots
1 aerial

Lindelof did not bounce back. The right side of our defence was being targeted throughout the second half, which is why Ole went to a back 5.

No, Lindelof did not lose many 1v1 duels but there was no massive improvement. We just got lucky that Brighton kept wasting their chances. They found it easy to work the channel between Lindelof and Wan-Bissaka, which both were at fault for.

Those stats are okay but, really, you would expect any centre half at a top team (which we fancy ourselves to be) would manage that.

 

[SAFMUTD]

Better than last week but thats not saying much, AWB took this week shit player award.