If a central defender gets outmuscled, it had better have been by a physical monster, otherwise, he's in the wrong job.
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Yeah, I can see you would stick with experience, but that kind of thinking is laughable coming from a Manchester United fan. If you are good enough you are old enough and that goes for any position on the pitch. Do you actually think Mengi would have done any worse than Lindelof on Saturday? I really don't he was that bad, and he will be that bad again you can bet on that.
You have plenty of 18-19 year old CBs around the top leagues and yeah they will make plenty of mistakes nobody says otherwise, but in the long run we might get a proper CB, with Lindelof we get the mistakes but he will never ever be good enough.
Name one.
I don't understand how he's that bad.
He may not be a Man Utd standard CB.. But it's something else to be as bad as he has been in the last 10 matches or so.
Have to assume its a mental block.
He may not be a Man Utd standard CB.. But it's something else to be as bad as he has been in the last 10 matches or so.
Have to assume its a mental block.
The problem is, that when he's in form he isn't a great defender (as others have mentioned, his whole style of defending and physical attributes are lacking). So when he's out of form he's going to get torn apart.
While that isn't untrue, I'd argue that Lindelof is the weakest part of our back 4. You can excuse the best of a group that's not top class, as you'd naturally improve on the rest before that player. But in our first choice 4, if anything, Lindelof is one of the people that should be replaced so that the others can benefit.
Not that he's solely to blame. Maguire hasn't been good of late either. He isn't good at dealing with pace and on Saturday kept passing it to palace players by trying to be too clever. But I'd say that in general he's a good defense. I do agree that the money spent on him is feeling such a waste right now. 80 million should buy you a fanatastic footballer or two very good ones. I never felt he could be a top class Cb and he's proving me right.
Where is abuse here?? What is up with you snowflakes fans? This is football. Those players are payed a lot to do their job. It is your right to criticize them and praise them just like you do with all other jobs in your life. It is a normal day in a life of football fan and football player. And it is nothing personal and that has absolutely nothing with how high is your support of your club. People confuse support with blind faith. People like you treat players like kids. "Oh, don't tell him that he was bad. He will cry".
And this comes from biggest Lindelof fan on this forum. Who took lots of bashing from other posters because i am defending him last 2 years. And i still think that he is our best defender but that performance was just shit.
He seems to have all the tools needed to play there, but as far as I know he's never played the position (except in a back three when he's generally done well but it's quite a different role). I have been wondering how he would go there if we do end up buying another leftback, but I doubt it'll happen and in reality I know it's more than likely he'd struggle if he was played there.
Thanks
Varane, Upamecano, Konate, Zouma, De Ligt were all playing first team football at that age in top 5 leagus, at the moment Badiashile, Garcia was playing for City just couple of months ago.
I swear when Matic plays he benefits a lot / looks better because Matic drops back and does a lot of his heading for him? Or maybe I'm making that up?
I said top teams, not teams in top leagues.
What I think about how he may have performed is irrelevant, he didn’t play so no one actually knows, but you can bet your bottom dollar Zaha and co would have been relishing the prospect. I did not for one second expect Lindelof to have a complete stinker.
As for being good enough and old enough, Sir Alex brought his centre backs through and introduced them as fullbacks, as it’s far more difficult to play in the middle. I’d say he’s got a far better grasp on the old if you’re good enough blurb and how to manage youngsters. mengi is a prospect, he’s probably not as good as Tuanzebe at the same age and he didn’t make his debut until he was 20 then went out on loan.
It's usually more that Matic goes towards them and tries to tackle/put them off, then Lindelof makes the interception easier.
Without that screen in front of him he just runs away backwards and can't deal with it himself.
Anyway no defensive midfielder would change the 3rd goal - and that is exactly why so many of us dislike Lindelof. He's weak in the tackle and shows no aggression or fight.
He should have been smashing through that ball to the half way line and taking Zaha with it, instead of throws out a limp leg and loses it - then proceeds to get held off by Zaha and doesn't get anywhere near a block for the shot.
Ajax got to the semi finals of the CL with De Ligt at CB, I'd say that's a pretty top team in my estimation. Varane was playing for Madrid long before he turned 20, as did Pique and Evans for us. Fergie also played Jones as 19 year old without problem if I remember correctly.
And yeah that same sentence re-Zaha and how he would have relished the prospect of facing the kid if based on absolutely feck all. I remember how we all dreaded Fosu Mensah facing Deeney, Tuanzebe against Alexis and there are probably other examples, Fosu Mensah especially dominated the shit out of Deeney on his debut If I remember correctly. Mengi is a prospect and will stay a prospect as long as we keep him out of the team at the expense of Lindelof and co. But Ole spoke very highly of him and he probably plans of giving him more game time. How he performs we can only guess, it can go both ways.
He's a good defender when played in a team which retains possession like Barcelona with prime Xavi, iniesta and Busquet.
He plays like he has something up his ass which doesn't allow him to do anything but point. One of the most awful player to have gotten significant number if games for us.
I don't think you're making it up. Matic brings a calming influence to the defence because they know when they inevitably get themselves into trouble Matic is normally available to help them out which is why I think DM should take precedence over other signings. It's a bit sad after all the money spent on defence we still need someone else to make them look better instead of signing dominant players who can hold their own.
Imagine if that was Vidic or Staam in that situation.
I think it's time for him at the very least to be left out for a few weeks .. I'd prefer to see a new CB coming in but I doubt that will happen
Jones wasn’t a player with zero first team minutes.
De Ligt is akin to Ronald, way way ahead of Mengi in terms of talent, so not really relevant in any such discussion. Mentioning a player who is potentially going to be a great is just silly.
TFM made his debut at leftback!
Evans made his United debut at 19 and had been on loan at Sunderland prior.
Varane yet again you pick a potential great, who in addition had already been playing for another club prior.
Pique I don’t believe he made more than 1 start at 18.
Tuanzebe was a full back facing Alexis.
History isn’t supporting you case. Seems you’re just knee jerking. Mengi is playing at the right level And will probably get some game time in less intense matches this season.
I doubt Zaha would even bother to contest it, he'd know he's lost before even trying.
With Lindelof though all opposition players think they've got a chance.
Matic averaged 2 aerials won per game last season. Lindelof 2.7
I'm sure it does happen but we're probably talking once or twice a match at most
Playing a game for the first team here and there is not the same as being a first team footballer.
Varane played 9 league games at 18.
Upamenco played 12 in Germany.
Konate played 16, again in Germany.
Zouma was in France.
De Ligt was in Holland.
Badiashile is in France.
Garcia played a handful of games last season.
They are/were all being brought in slowly, as an 18 year old should be.
Try again.
After this match, they will think they have more chances now
So Jones wasn't a player with zero minutes and that doesn't count as untested? De Ligt is akin to Koeman and that doesn't count as well? Who says if Mengi gets minutes this season he won't become the next Bobby Moore? Yes i think it's laughable to discount the example of De LIgt when even Ole mentioned that example comparing Mengi's situation.
TFM made his debut at CB, but it's also irrelevant since 5 days after that was the Watford game where he faced Deeney I think it was along side Blind. Evans i thought he was playing prior to that maybe I am wrong same as Pique. You also need yo factor that both Evans and Pique had two all time greats in front of them, we have Lindelof at the moment.
Your Varane argument is as weak as the one for De Ligt. Ajax and Real gave them chances and reaped the rewards, as we do now with Greenwood and previously did the same with Rashford. Tuanzebe was playing full back and that does not count or what? We have a far better full RB at the moment than we had back then, it would be a bonus for a young CB to play in his natural position than shift to an unnatural position.
Yeah Sir Alex did that with Smalling and Jones, did it help? Smalling remained limited on the ball and always awkward when playing and Jones suffered from that along with his horrendous injury record.
Did you miss the part where German and French clubs dominated the European Cup just a month ago? Why is that an argument exactly.
Playing for the first team, makes them first team footballers, maybe not regular first team starters, and I did not say that Mengi should be one. Ideally we need a new CB, but we also need to punish underperforming first teamers, and not keep them in the starting line up. Giving Mengi chances would be a bonus, and yes I agree that it should be done with a plan and he be kept in check like any kid should be.
No I totally agree, Lindelof should be the one to be replaced, ideally by someone like Upemacano, realistically it's going to be Mengy or Smalling or something. My point was that even a weakest defender didn't seem to bad in the past because we had proper talent surrounding them, now it just looks even worse because the quality around isn't as good. Maguire just isn't an 80m CB, he's 40m at best, Lindelof level of money, not Van Djik that's for sure.
Lets just settle on you’re the one with a weak argument, you can’t name 1 inexperienced centre back at a top side getting regular minutes in a top league at age 18. Yet you some how think you have a point?
In terms of talent at United at 18 Tuanzebe >>> Mengi, neither are or were ready for regular games aged 18.
I‘d suggest you watch Mengi a bit more, you’re vastly over rating his current ability. A loan and a year or so to physically develop, then he maybe ready.
I named couple of CBs who got regular game time at the age of 18, yet your arguments are what? He is a generational talent and that does not count? Or he only plays in Germany or France? The CB we were heavily linked the kid from Monaco does that count?
In terms of talent, that "Tuanzebe>>>Mengi" is laughable, both of them are great talents, Tuanzebe being very unlucky with injuries, and I rate Mengi just as highly.
But let's leave it at that, we are derailing a thread about Lindelof.
He had a very bad game, but if I summarize what some people have been writing here it makes no sense:
When Lindelof track someone along the wing and fails to stop the cross, it is his fault if there is a goal. Not Shaw, Williams, Maguire or anyone else who failed to clear the ball in the penalty box.
When someone else, like Williams, fails to stop a cross, it is Lindelof's fault if there is a goal as he is the CB and should clear the ball in the box.
The conclusion seems to be that it is always Lindelof's fault if we concede a goal from a cross?
Another thing is the confusion of team work with baby sitting.
If Lindelof plays well, it is because Maguire, AWB and Matic helps him to do his job. I can even read that Matic is helping him to head the ball (which I have never seen, and stats even shows that Matic heads the ball less now than in other teams).
From watching United, I would say that Lindelof covers for AWB much more often than the other way around. It is the nature of modern football that the FB is much higher up the pitch than the CB (most of the time).
I would also say that the roles are that Maguire moves forward, and Lindelof covers behind, more than the other way around.
When Lindelof track someone along the wing and fails to stop the cross, it is his fault if there is a goal. Not Shaw, Williams, Maguire or anyone else who failed to clear the ball in the penalty box.
When someone else, like Williams, fails to stop a cross, it is Lindelof's fault if there is a goal as he is the CB and should clear the ball in the box.
The conclusion seems to be that it is always Lindelof's fault if we concede a goal from a cross?
Another thing is the confusion of team work with baby sitting.
If Lindelof plays well, it is because Maguire, AWB and Matic helps him to do his job. I can even read that Matic is helping him to head the ball (which I have never seen, and stats even shows that Matic heads the ball less now than in other teams).
From watching United, I would say that Lindelof covers for AWB much more often than the other way around. It is the nature of modern football that the FB is much higher up the pitch than the CB (most of the time).
I would also say that the roles are that Maguire moves forward, and Lindelof covers behind, more than the other way around.
Pretty obvious a generational talent is an exception to the rule. Otherwise we’d be playing Chong every game on the right wing, as he was highly rated and might actually end up good enough.
As for what league, I stated top clubs in top leagues and did not discount Germany or France from them, but I would state the Dutch league isn’t a top 5 league like you’ve stated. England, Spain, Italy, Germany and Francel the. Would need to be playing for a team that’s expected to challenge for top 5 at least.
No it’s not laughable, it’s an opinion based on watching both players and drawing my own conclusion. Then add on how Tuanzebe was the leader of his team and reading what his coaches have said about him. I’d expect 6 months ago you’d never even heard of Mengi.
As for it derailing the thread, you suggested we replace an established international central defender, who was part of one of the best defensive units in the league last season, with a completely untried 18 year old. As ‘he couldn’t be worse’. So it’s relevant and I expected some kind of informative insight into your opinion. But you’ve based it on zip and offered some very random incorrect player information to back up your claim.
So I’ll leave it there...
It's not just one game. He is constantly getting outmuscled, outjumped and wrong side of attackers. He is just weak with a horrible mentality for a CB. It's not going to change anytime soon, and it's costing us goals.
People aren't gonna blame Williams in Lindelof's thread. You should go read Brandon Williams and other player's thread instead of only trying to find someone who blame different players in Lindelof's thread.
Just let him rot, he just started the compaign as bad as the sevilla close
He is the weakest player of the BPL, please give Smalling some time, we will be so much better.
Who says Mengi isn’t a generation talent? What? Your crystal ball? And do you realize how stupid that “ I’d expect 6 months ago you’d never even heard of Mengi” is? I’ve been watching youth football since back in the days when catchcart and James Chester were playing, and you blubber such rubbish.
This established CB you describe is Lindelof, don’t mask it with very insignificant bullshit. Better mention his semi final contribution and now this performance vs Palace, it’s great representation of his quality.
Like I said I’ll leave it, your obviously very triggered and ranting.
A good game 10 posts, a bad game 13 pages. I know a bad game attracts all the haters and that it’s is the same with some other players. But I can read here in this thread that it is his fault when we concede a goal both if he fails to cover a cross and when someone else fails to cover and he doesn’t clear it in the box.
He had a very poor game, why make up stuff that he is always bullied and never wins anything in the air when it’s not true? It’s like some massive gas lighting experiment.
I agree with you. Lindelof is not a top class defender. But he gets the blame for everything.
His tackling is poor but to blame him for the first palace goal is ridiculous.
It was a normal cross with our two defenders to one striker. Maguire was goal side and Shaw was initially too.
Do we need a better defense? Yes we do. We need cbs who can defend 1v1 or 2v2. None of them can now. We should get defenders who can defend.
Are you serioius? Maybe in today's Barca team, he would get a game. Never a million years in their prime years. Look at all their centre backs over the years, Puyol, Abidal, Umtiti, Pique, Mascherano etc. Notice anything similar amongst those players? Leaders, who defend on the front, pass on the front foot and are not wet passive pussies.
And again it's just another ridiculous thing to try to overrate his ability with, 'he's a good defender, if the opposition isn't near him and he can pass the ball quickly to other players'.
First goal against Seville. Same thing. That's just the most recent example of many.
This is delusional levels of mental gymnastics defending Lindelof, saying he wasn't responsible
He allowed a simple cross across goal when he was shoulder to shoulder against an attacker deep in our half/near our penalty box. He had all the time to block the cross/show more strength to push him wider/challenge for the ball and did nothing.
Then he had the gall to throw his hands up at De Gea after the goal like it was his fault.
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Never has been and never will be good enough.
I'm saying he's only good when his team has like 95% possession of the game and he needs to do feck all if it ain't obvious from the second part of my post.Are you serioius? Maybe in today's Barca team, he would get a game. Never a million years in their prime years. Look at all their centre backs over the years, Puyol, Abidal, Umtiti, Pique, Mascherano etc. Notice anything similar amongst those players? Leaders, who defend on the front, pass on the front foot and are not wet passive pussies.
And again it's just another ridiculous thing to try to overrate his ability with, 'he's a good defender, if the opposition isn't near him and he can pass the ball quickly to other players'.
First goal against Seville. Same thing. That's just the most recent example of many.
This is delusional levels of mental gymnastics defending Lindelof, saying he wasn't responsible
He allowed a simple cross across goal when he was shoulder to shoulder against an attacker deep in our half/near our penalty box. He had all the time to block the cross/show more strength to push him wider/challenge for the ball and did nothing.
Then he had the gall to throw his hands up at De Gea after the goal like it was his fault.
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