Do you mean he struggled in the 1-5 win last season? Or which match are we talking about?
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I never said he was slow, but do agree with many that he isn't quick either.
I'm not the one that made it a issue. The discussion was on going when I decided to participate.
The 1-5 game. 'Struggle' maybe is a exaggeration when the team comfortably won the game but Zahore did show Lindelof a clean pair of heels on one occasion and I even mentioned in here at the time.
Those are opposing ideas mate, you can’t say he isn’t slow and then say he lacks pace. You can do that for literally every player. Like I said, using the odd example where Carrick has caught relatively quick players doesn’t make Carrick quick. Being outpaced by fast attackers doesn’t maker a CB, for a CB.
He isn't slow but isn't overly quick either. (Somewhere in between)Maybe it's a difference of how we define pace. Is a lack of pace gonna put paid to his United career? I don't think so. But if you weigh his game up, then apart from his ability on the ball, nothing stands out. And his ability on the ball is even questioned as far as 'ball playing ability' goes. That is the reason I question his longterm future as a mainstay in the team.
He is somewhere in between, and he is slightly above that average.
The mental aspects of his game are severely underrated. He reads the game very well. His positioning is excellent. It seems odd that he's so roundly criticized by some posters about all aspects of his game, and yet his influence has been profoundly positive on this team. All these players that are better in the air than him, are quicker, stronger etc can't even get in the match day squad.
He's obviously better than Smalling on the ball and Ole favours that. The rest of the competition was Jones, Rojo, Bailly etc who have been underwhelming thus far so it's not really a surprise he's ahead of them. Jones and Bailly can't even manage to stay fit either. But having said that, he's done well to ride a storm in his first 18 months at the club.
His reading of the game might well be good along with his positioning, but I feel a 'Manchester United CB' needs more in his locker to propel us towards the top again. Maguire who is only a year older is immense aerially, been described by Carragher as the best CB at bringing the ball out from the back and he's also physically very strong which adds to his strong ball playing skills and immense aerial game. That's without talking about Maguire's strong positional sense and reading of the game.
When they were fit he played better. When he partnered them he played better. The preference for Lindelof began well before Ole arrived. He plays every week not because he’s just better on the ball, but because he’s a better defender. This perennial attitude to undervalue his defending and pigeonhole him as someone who is simply decent on the ball needs to go away. Is Maguire a better defender? Course he is, but there’s a reason why he cost £80mil, and there’s a reason why teams don’t end up breaking transfer fees twice on CBs. I mean, we’ve gone from discussing Lindelofs pace to you attempting to list everything that’s wrong with the player, a player who held our back four together during one of the most different periods of our clubs recent history. He’s an excellent defender and, in terms of our starting XI, CB is the last player we need to be looking to find improvements.
You have completely ignored everything I said. The pace argument wasn't brought up by me either. And Maguire was offered to us for a paltry sum of £14m before he left Hull, if the usually reliable Manchester based journos are to believed.
What's his standout attributes? His ball playing ability is his stand out ability and it's not even that stand out if you compare him to other CBs in Europe. So again what's his stand out attribute?
Him being the best of a bad bunch (excluding Smalling) doesn't really say much about him as a longterm CB for Manchester United. Using that to prove your point is clutching at straws. We conceded more goals than Newcastle last season and he was our constant.
Doesn't matter who brought up the pace argument, that was our single point of conversation up until a few posts ago, when instead of discussing the point directly, you've gone on a tangent to speak about other things, probably because I wasn't willing to accept your anecdotal evidence on its own merit. Maguire wasn't the same place when he left Hull. There's a reason why he went to Leicester first. There's a reason why we spent £80mil on him THIS season.
I've already stated these. What was that about ignoring what has been said? So he's just been entirely fortunate to play as well as he has for us then? Evidently all he can do is pass the ball to a mediocre level and move around with a distinct lack of pace. Baffling that, despite his continued high level of performance for us, some of you are utterly unwilling to give him the credit he deserves.
What do you mean excluding Smalling? He's an infinitely better defender than Smalling, which is why under both the current and the previous manager, Lindelof has been a mainstay in the side and Smalling has not. Despite the total lack of protection our back four got last season, despite our fans continued ignorance to this very obvious fact, he's still been able to play some bloody good football fo us.
Flawless logic. So DDG must be average now then. We conceded more than Newcastle, right?
I have Adnan on ignore and I am pretty sure he is the poster ivaldo is arguing with.
The only thing he's clearly better than Smalling in is being comfortable on the ball. He's not infinitely better than Smalling at all. Smalling is much stronger aerially, stronger at defending space in behind as demonstrated with how he dealt with Mbappe and co in Paris last season. And is much more of a athlete in comparison. Lindelof is better on the ball and that's the reason he's favoured over Smalling and I'm more than fine with that. What exactly is Lindelof better at when it comes to defending? I hope you don't get stuck at positioning and reading of the game. Surprise me.
Lindelof is a passive/reactive defender which is why I liken him to Ronny Johnsen who was a solid squad option. Lindelof isn't proactive or dominant as a CB in any facet of the game. Which is fine for a club outside the top 6 but not for a club with domestic and European ambitions. And just because Maguire cost £80m that doesn't mean we should excuse Lindelof due to Leicester's excessive demands. Vidic and Ferdinand cost £7m and £30m respectively and they were both judged on the pitch and not via their transfer fees. A 25 year old Lindelof shouldn't be given leeway because he cost less than Maguire.
Both Cavaleiro and Zahore are rapid players, and they were second half substitutes going up against a player who started the match. It's proof that they are rapid players, it's not proof that Lindelöf is a slow player.
Lindelof isn't a slow player but I wouldn't describe him as a quick player either.
It's actually not a bad debate going on in here. He only had his first season as a regular Benfica player the year before he joined us. It's a testament to the scouting network we had in place at the time. I actually think his transition into English football has gone exactly as expected in the sense it was always going to take him a while to adjust. It's been quite clear he has the ball playing skills that we've needed for quite some time, and his mistakes were managed in the sense he was part of a side that was transitioning. I don't think anybody was really worried about whether or not he would come good.
He's no slower than Rio, or Vidic IMO however he doesn't quite cover ground like they did yet. I do think Maguire and him have the skill set to be one of the best partnerships in the world, they'll just have to learn on the job.
He's no slower than Rio, or Vidic IMO however he doesn't quite cover ground like they did yet. I do think Maguire and him have the skill set to be one of the best partnerships in the world, they'll just have to learn on the job.
Rio was significantly quicker in his peak. But I agree that he was of similar pace to Vidic. Vidic was also far far superior aerially in comparison and was a proactive and aggressive defender to boot. He was like our Serbian friends say 'fearless'.
He also had a similar rise to Vidic. It took him a couple of seasons to become the defender he was. I'd argue it was 3 seasons, maybe 4 before he became the player we remember him as.
Vidic tbf was part of the 'famous four' for Serbia and had actual pedigree before he arrived from Russia. His partnership with the likes of Dragutinovic helped Serbia to Qualify for the world cup in 2006 with only one goal conceded in qualifying.
One is a 25 year old International who has played 29 times and played in the World Cup for his country too. He has scored two goals for his country too both in competitive matches. He has also won the Portuguese league and other honours with Benfica. He has also won the Euro U 21 for Sweden. Other is a player who is 21 years old and only played 5 games for Manchester United and has played most of his games in the Championship. At this moment in time Tuanzabe has done nothing to prove that he is better than Lindelof or for that matter Smalling or Jones or to me even Rojo or Bailly. These players have played at the top level including the World Cup for some of them. Tuanzabe has not proven himself. I am sure he will get the chance to play in the Cup games and we will know if he is good enough or not.
Lindelof faster than Tuanzebe
Lindelof has average pace. 6,5/10
Tuanzebe is lightning. 9,5/10
Bailly is lightning. 10/10
Smalling was lightning, lost a bit of pace I think, still pretty fast. 8/10
Jones is fast-ish. 7,5/10
Rojo 6,5/10
AWB 9/10
Shaw was lightning with silly acceleration, lost some due to injuries and eating. 8,5/10
Young 7,5/10
There you have it, pace wise there is nothing more to discuss
I don’t think Bailly is anywhere near Smalling’s speed. Just an opinion, no stat backing whatsoever.
Lindelof has no outstanding qualities but is an all-round steady player. He is a perfect third-choice CB behind Maguire and Tuanzebe.
But Axel fast
He's got decent speed. Not enough to qualify for the 'pacey' label, but not so little that it can be considered a weakness worth highlighting.
Yes, he, a player who has proven he can handle the PL, is perfect as cover for a player with one decent season in the Championship. This fecking place.
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Super. Who cares. He was a great centre back as well and won defender of the year whilst playing in that position. But I did not actually come on this thread to discuss Paolo Maldini. I just used something he said to make a point about how Victor Lindelof plays.
So quite a lot for the under 21s (40 %) and a couple for the National team as I mentioned. I think we are done with the nitpicking on the phrase ‘a lot’ because you and I have different views on what is a lot.
The last post here about various players speeds is a load of someone’s nonsense personal opinion and not even worth discussing. The only fact we have is the speedtest posted by Lukaku which we know is also flawed. But still, in that test Lindelof had a better result than Tuanzebe.
p.s. I am not Swedish, I have just lived here for the past 20 years. Be careful with assumptions
Yeah let's brush by that, it's only a large portion of what makes a great defender. You've got such a myopic view of this it's ridiculous. Let's just look a being good on the ball and the mental aspect of the game as two single traits. But running and jumping and being strong etc, they're all different! Let's not clump that together as athleticism.Have you not been watching these past 6 months? Lindelof is not a reactive defender. He literally has been playing as the aggressor of the two CBs, challenging far higher up the pitch than his counterpart.
No it doesn't, but if you don't think there is a clear and obvious connection between how much a club is willing to pay and the expectation of those players then you need to give your head a wobble. But, predictably, you've missed the point entirely. The reason why I brought up Maguire's fee is because, quite simply, there are precious few defenders who are worth spending that much, even in today's market. There's a real dearth in quality of CBs and has been for many years, so Lindelof needs to be judged within context, and what managers currently want from their CBs. Whether you like it or not, Lindelof ticks a lot of the boxes, and old fashioned brutes are a think of the past. The reason Lindelof is picked over Smalling isn't purely because of his passing ability but because he's a better all round player.
correct!Spot on. Being the fastest or the strongest player doesn't make you the best footballer.
Can someone tell me what his positive influence on the team is? If we look at stats as you all like to do; league position, conceding goals, what's his positive influence?
Watch the games.
You need to look beyond the stats. The majority agree he was our best centre back before Maguire came in. He was also voted runner up in the player of the year vote last season. It should be obvious that the best centre back at the club (again, pre Maguire) is also a positive influence on the team. If you still don't see it when you watch the games, I'm afraid no stats will change that. The manager clearly does, which is the important part.
I sadly did last season. Horrible. Hope we don't concede 54 goals this time! But thanks for the answer guys.
The idea that our conceding the record goals is solely down to Lindelofs individual performances is very laughable. Only someone who hasn't actually seen our games last year would suggest that correlation to be honest. They ignore the managerial changes, the liability of a holding midfielder and right back exposing the centre backs, the lack of a consistent partner at centre back and so on.
Anyone who has watched last season knows Lindelof was one of the few performers who maintained generally good consistency since Juventus at OT.
The mental aspects of his game are severely overrated if anything. His decision-making is largely underwhelming and rooted in cowardice. All aspects of his game are roundly criticised because he excels at virtually nothing, and describing his impact on this team as profoundly positive is surely inaccurate.
That being said, I’ve been happy enough with his first two games this season and feel he has carried on from a relatively strong pre-season, and he has looked more comfortable previously playing on the right side, particularly on the ball. I hope to see a consistent improvement in our ball circulation and progression this season with a Lindelof - Maguire partnership and the early signs are that any issues in that regard aren’t going to be with the centre halves (for a change). I don’t expect him to improve defensively though and he is generally a timid, lacklustre defender.
So he's slow, weak, bad in the air, cowardly, with poor decision making and overrated passing. Incredible he's managed to remain our first choice CB for so long, not only that, he's attracted interest from some of the biggest teams in Europe. Don't they know what a mess of a player he is? This place sometimes...
"Rooted in cowardice".
Perhaps you are severely overrating your own level of judgment, because this reads as a load of nonsense.
I would say the biggest thing is that with him and Maguire, United can play in a way they couldn't before and in a way they can't with for example Smalling. You could clearly see that the 4 at the back and DDG dont hoof the ball randomly anymore. Instead they try to attract pressure and play their way out. DDG has so far 82% passing accuracy compared to his normal 60% and very few long balls. only been two matches but one can clearly see this is tactics from OGS.
That makes the team better.
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Those Barcelona scouts must be really clueless considering they showed interest in Lindelöf instead of Smalling or Tuanzebe.
Defensively Smalling is Maldini for Lindelof, priority for cb is to protect goal, Lindelof is awful in that department. If he has a good pass, play him as dm ffs
I didn't say it was entirely his fault, but he was part of that defense so I wonder what he's doing so good. Okay, he's not shit. It's not his fault we let in 54 goals. But what has he actually done then, that's so impressive? Remember it's Manchester United and not Norwich. Remember we used to have Rio and Vidic, not Grant Hanley. We must retain that standard, or as close at it comes. That is where maybe you and I differ. I don't see Lindelof as something close to that. I don't see him ever as good enough. What would we say if Vidic was part of this disaster as back four? I really don't see him doing anything special. He's no monster like Vidic, or not classy like Rio. He's really, really passive and that would maybe be fine if we didn't let goals in for fun, but we do. Then you have to act. My feeling is that he just wants off the hook every time. He hides and then it someone else's fault. But I do get the feeling his flaws are being ignored by many. His heading. His strength. His mistakes, like the missed header against Chelsea when they hit the bar. Or his brutally miskick against Wolves. No, I stand by that Tuanzebe is a much better prospect that we need to get in as soon as possible because I see Lindelof as a mediocre player, an Everton-standard player. Maybe I'll be wrong, maybe not. We'll see.
They probably dont have access to WhoScored..
Lindelof is a much better player than Tuanzebe, what are you smoking?
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