VAR, Refs and Linesmen | General Discussion

[NotThatSoph]

I thought it was supposed to be when it first touches the passers foot, not after the ball has been released

edit: point 2 here
https://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/lawsandrules/laws/football-11-11/law-11---offside

The wording is a bit murky, and perhaps is going to change after that Swedish video thing, but for the purpose of these checks they choose the first frame where the ball is clearly being played.

If we assume an average speed of 25kmph of the attacker, which is being modest then in one frame to the other the movement will be 14cms. That is a significant amount of margin of error when you consider that they are giving offside for 2-3 cms.

Regarding the angle it is obviously very important as you are using 2d pictures to judge a 3d situation. If you don’t use the exact angle to judge then you will not come to the correct decision.

They aren't giving offsides for 2-3 cms, they're giving it for 10 cm or more. Here it was probably 15. The angle is only relevant if it tricks the judges into choosing the wrong body part, which didn't happen.

Just admit that the technology isn't fit for purpose. There is no way that the goal should of been disallowed.

It's offside, so with the current rules it should be disallowed. I'm perfectly happy with changing the rules, or allowing bigger margins, or scrapping VAR altogether, but the technology was completely fine in that situation.

 

[miked99]

VAR was sold to us off the back of goal line technology - hey, look isn't this technology great? The correct decision will always be made!

But so many scenarios are a matter of opinion or open to interpretation that it doesn't matter how many different people look at it, it's still as potentially wrong as it was when the ref looked at it in the first place. It's good for off the ball incidents and potential red cards but apart from that it seems to exist solely to try and find a way to rule goals out.

I find it baffling that with all this technology, offsides seem to rely on someone getting their crayons out and attempting to draw straight lines on the screen, with often hilarious results. You've got a computer there. You've got a goal line at both ends of the pitch. The goal line is straight. So how is it not possible for the computer to just project that straight line up the pitch to wherever the incident took place? Then you've got a perfect straight line right there.

I must be missing something because that seems the most obvious and easy way of sorting it imaginable.

 

[DennisReynolds]

Isn't there a massive irony in rising sea levels from scouser tears because VAR didn't get involved? The reaction is as if VAR incorrectly disallowed a Liverpool goal - but that isn't what happened.

The linesman made a call he'd make as a human almost every time in the 30-or-so seasons that pre-dated VAR, and pundits/media/fans claim VAR "ruins the game", so why is it suddenly a 180 because VAR didn't overrule the offside decision the linesman made?

Oh wait, forgot - it's Liverpool. I forgot that it's somehow only controversial if it negatively affects them.

I'm not sure you know what irony means.

You had a factual decision go your way. Why are you pandering to the crowd and acting like this was a rare subjective decision that benefited Liverpool?

Since you're on a Utd forum, I'm not sure you need to be reminded, but you robbed Utd of points with that nonsense decision when Romero handled it against Utd.

 

[fergies coat]

The wording is a bit murky, and perhaps is going to change after that Swedish video thing, but for the purpose of these checks they choose the first frame where the ball is clearly being played.



They aren't giving offsides for 2-3 cms, they're giving it for 10 cm or more. Here it was probably 15. The angle is only relevant if it tricks the judges into choosing the wrong body part, which didn't happen.



It's offside, so with the current rules it should be disallowed. I'm perfectly happy with changing the rules, or allowing bigger margins, or scrapping VAR altogether, but the technology was completely fine in that situation.

No he wasn't, you have someone looking at a TV screen with a set of crayons in one had and a remote control in the other. It's too close to disallow it. If that goal happens pre VAR there would be zero fuss about it standing.

 

[90 + 5min]

Just admit that the technology isn't fit for purpose. There is no way that the goal should of been disallowed.

People need to stop using wrong pictures. That shows when ball is released. Not the first contact in the same moment. Put back that image less than 1/4 sec and you see what happens.

Garnacho is onside. 1+1 can never be 3. Trying to justify something that can’t be is never good.

What club should be looking at is all those decisions going against us. The question is why and how.

 

[Castia]

Liverpool have released a damning statement calling into question the integrity of the game.

First and probably last time in my life that I’ve liked a Liverpool tweet.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

I didn't see the game... Is their any context around this incident!? Cos that's stonewall.

 

[Amarsdd]

I didn't see the game... Is their any context around this incident!? Cos that's stonewall.

Its not a foul. The player stood up and started running. Don't you know you need to fall, stay down and act injured to get a foul in these situations? And at the same time, we'll call them divers, and shame them.

 

[The Corinthian]

It's offside, so with the current rules it should be disallowed. I'm perfectly happy with changing the rules, or allowing bigger margins, or scrapping VAR altogether, but the technology was completely fine in that situation.

It’s not though. Stop perpetuating this shite. It’s tiresome.

 

[erikcred]

Liverpool have released a damning statement calling into question the integrity of the game.

First and probably last time in my life that I’ve liked a Liverpool tweet.

ETH has to learn that entire text and just repeat that in interviews next time we get robbed.

 

[Zlatan 7]

The wording is a bit murky, and perhaps is going to change after that Swedish video thing, but for the purpose of these checks they choose the first frame where the ball is clearly being played.



They aren't giving offsides for 2-3 cms, they're giving it for 10 cm or more. Here it was probably 15. The angle is only relevant if it tricks the judges into choosing the wrong body part, which didn't happen.



It's offside, so with the current rules it should be disallowed. I'm perfectly happy with changing the rules, or allowing bigger margins, or scrapping VAR altogether, but the technology was completely fine in that situation.

It’s not murky at all, it says as soon as the ball is touched. So the frame should be when the ball is first touched.
I don’t want to get into The garnacho debate but if the frame is when the ball is released that’s a massive difference when arguing gnat hairs of an offside So I’m unsure how you can be so certain he was offside

 

[90 + 5min]

I didn't see the game... Is their any context around this incident!? Cos that's stonewall.

Absolute shocking.

Liverpool have released a damning statement calling into question the integrity of the game.

First and probably last time in my life that I’ve liked a Liverpool tweet.

This is how real clubs do their job correctly and protect themselves. We stay silent and just let everybody bully us. We need our club to start writing statements like that. We need tenHag to open his mouth little more when we have pressconference. We need our club to put out facts how we are treated and point out decisions against us. It isn't that hard.

 

[Berbasbullet]

Absolute shocking.


This is how real clubs do their job correctly and protect them self. We stay silent and just let everybody bully us. We need our club to start writing statements like that. We need tenHag to open his mouth little more when we have pressconference. We need our club to put out facts how we are treated and point out decisions against us. It isn't that hard.

Second we do it the entire football world will attack united and highlight all of uniteds decisions they have managed to get.

Genuinely nothing we can do, we are too unpopular to get sympathy. We are checkmated.

 

[ManUnitedCanuck]

I didn't see the game... Is their any context around this incident!? Cos that's stonewall.

Just saw this one and came here to post. They wonder why people surround refs, because if you don’t or complain nobody even tries to make the call.

 

[Andersonson]

I swear the Pool fans are the worst. They are yelling corruption left and right now. We all agree it wasn't offside and they did get fecked over last game. But they got the most wrongful decisions for them last season. They got 5 points more than they should have. Second best in the league. There ain't no conspiracy just shit refs

 

[90 + 5min]

Second we do it the entire football world will attack united and highlight all of uniteds decisions they have managed to get.

Genuinely nothing we can do, we are too unpopular to get sympathy. We are checkmated.

Well, is there any difference from what we are seeing now? We got decisions against us every game and on top of that media, pundits and other just put more wood on that fire. Our club need to say something. Our club needs to come out with statement. Otherwise it says that we accept this things happening and that it can keep going. That is why Liverpool statement is exactly what a good club would do. Protect themselves. Put out official statement. Stop talking with media for a period of time.

 

[Fr. Todd Unctious]

Second we do it the entire football world will attack united and highlight all of uniteds decisions they have managed to get.

Genuinely nothing we can do, we are too unpopular to get sympathy. We are checkmated.

Is the correct answer. If Ten Hag said anything he'd probably get a ban and we'd have even more stuff not given and I don't think it's hyperbolic to suggest so particularly when you see how the media reacted after our game Wolves. They've been terrified to give us anything since


I've said it before they'd only move to do something when Liverpool were the ones who got fecked over. I bet there'll be an annoucement during the week

 

[NicolaSacco]

Well, is there any difference from what we are seeing now? We got decisions against us every game and on top of that media, pundits and other just put more wood on that fire. Our club need to say something. Our club needs to come out with statement. Otherwise it says that we accept this things happening and that it can keep going. That is why Liverpool statement is exactly what a good club would do. Protect themselves. Put out official statement. Stop talking with media for a period of time.

How would not talking to the media help though? Or is it just a way of advertising it as much as possible; it will get more coverage that way?

 

[NicolaSacco]

Second we do it the entire football world will attack united and highlight all of uniteds decisions they have managed to get.

Genuinely nothing we can do, we are too unpopular to get sympathy. We are checkmated.

If you did it about a specific decision, eg a penalty, offside etc, then you’d rightly get a ton of stick for it. Every club in the league will be able to name, on request, several wrong decisions that they feel they’ve received this season, so you’d be very unlikely to get much sympathy. If it was for something as bizarre as yesterday, something that hasn’t happened before, then I think the media and pgmol would act exactly as they have with Liverpool.

 

[90 + 5min]

How would not talking to the media help though? Or is it just a way of advertising it as much as possible; it will get more coverage that way?

Media needs us more then we need them. We are one of worlds biggest club and some would say institution. News about us sell. So, if club take away that source from them they can start wondering why is that and if they are part of clubs decision. That way, maybe and just maybe they could come up to some conclusion that we are treated in a negative way by them pretty much all the time. Which by now is clear for everyone. Just for one example lets take Wolves game. While Wolves should have had penalty nobody brings up that we should have two before that.

As I said, Liverpool showed with that statement that they are big club and they are protecting themselves. We on other hand are just silent despite having nightmare of decisions for some seasons now and this season is just crazy.

 

[Shane88]

Liverpool's statment.

Liverpool Football Club acknowledges PGMOL’s admission of their failures last night. It is clear that the correct application of the laws of the game did not occur, resulting in sporting integrity being undermined.

We fully accept the pressures that match officials work under but these pressures are supposed to be alleviated, not exacerbated, by the existence and implementation of VAR.

It is therefore unsatisfactory that sufficient time was not afforded to allow the correct decision to be made and that there was no subsequent intervention.
That such failings have already been categorised as “significant human error” is also unacceptable. Any and all outcomes should be established only by the review and with full transparency.

This is vital for the reliability of future decision-making as it applies to all clubs with learnings being used to make improvements to processes in order to ensure this kind of situation cannot occur again.

In the meantime, we will explore the range of options available, given the clear need for escalation and resolution.

Pack of rancid cnuts hinting at legal action, completely ignoring the outrageous amount of decisions they've gotten over for the last few years.

 

[El Zoido]

Liverpool's statment.



Pack of rancid cnuts hinting at legal action, completely ignoring the outrageous amount of decisions they've gotten over for the last few years.

They’re basically just threatening officials to give them favourable decisions. It’ll work, too.

 

[Oranges038]

Liverpool's statment.



Pack of rancid cnuts hinting at legal action, completely ignoring the outrageous amount of decisions they've gotten over for the last few years.

That's the right way to do it.

Pile the pressure on to make sure you get favourable calls in the future.

It'll fecking work and all.

 

[Jeppers7]

If you did it about a specific decision, eg a penalty, offside etc, then you’d rightly get a ton of stick for it. Every club in the league will be able to name, on request, several wrong decisions that they feel they’ve received this season, so you’d be very unlikely to get much sympathy. If it was for something as bizarre as yesterday, something that hasn’t happened before, then I think the media and pgmol would act exactly as they have with Liverpool.

Like Wolves did against us….Oh no that’s right they got an apology also. We’ve had several, literally, penalties denied this season including a blatant one yesterday, they don’t even get mentioned. You can look at the highlights on SkySports if you want to see the incident…Oh no you can’t because it’s not on them.

 

[Bale Bale Bale]

That is actually hilarious from Liverpool, what a bunch of children.

 

[Jeppers7]

The wording is a bit murky, and perhaps is going to change after that Swedish video thing, but for the purpose of these checks they choose the first frame where the ball is clearly being played.



They aren't giving offsides for 2-3 cms, they're giving it for 10 cm or more. Here it was probably 15. The angle is only relevant if it tricks the judges into choosing the wrong body part, which didn't happen.



It's offside, so with the current rules it should be disallowed. I'm perfectly happy with changing the rules, or allowing bigger margins, or scrapping VAR altogether, but the technology was completely fine in that situation.

Can you give us your reasoning as to why you are so sure that it was offside? Where does your absolute certainty come from?

 

[SilentWitness]

Wait, so you all agree it's onside but when Liverpool complain about it because it's so blatant they're being childish and laughable? Tribalism is bloody daft.

 

[90 + 5min]

Wait, so you all agree it's onside but when Liverpool complain about it because it's so blatant they're being childish and laughable? Tribalism is bloody daft.

This is not laughable or childish. I think it is correct and really good move. They are protecting their club. I wish our club would do that. Every week if it needs to be done.

 

[Berbasbullet]

I didn't see the game... Is their any context around this incident!? Cos that's stonewall.

Reminds me a little of the Weghorst one last season we obviously didn't get.

 

[NicolaSacco]

Like Wolves did against us….Oh no that’s right they got an apology also. We’ve had several, literally, penalties denied this season including a blatant one yesterday, they don’t even get mentioned. You can look at the highlights on SkySports if you want to see the incident…Oh no you can’t because it’s not on them.

In the Wolves game the referees head (or whatever his job is) went to the Wolves management straight after the game to say he was sure there had been an error. Maybe that hasn’t happened to you yet because the ref doesn’t actually think that there has been an error to acknowledge? It seems like you are saying that a lack of apology/acknowledgment from the referees chief proves your point that you should be publicly complaining more, but that feels like a non-sequitur. It’s only worth publicly complaining if the refs agree there was a mistake, otherwise it just seems like sour grapes.

Either way I just can’t see how that is comparable to what Liverpool have done, which I think was pointless, and a bad move on their part by the way.

 

[RacingClub]

Wait, so you all agree it's onside but when Liverpool complain about it because it's so blatant they're being childish and laughable? Tribalism is bloody daft.

Agreed.

Post after post on here complaining about how United have been hard done by and that things have to change and when someone finally says "Enough is enough" it's seen as being cry babies.

No wonder that nothing ever changes in football, opposition fans are too busy celebrating the wrong calls that they will be subjected to eventually rather than all banding together and facilitating change.

 

[Jeppers7]

Wait, so you all agree it's onside but when Liverpool complain about it because it's so blatant they're being childish and laughable? Tribalism is bloody daft.

It’s not complaining about it that’s in any way an issue. They absolutely should. But issuing a statement calling into question the integrity of the league and its officials is a bit much for me, not that I don’t think it’s possible, just that one incorrectly ruled out goal that should have followed procedure is not call for THAT statement.

 

[VivaRonaldo85]

Weeks of incoming generous decisions on their way to Liverpool now. The media circus of support plus their own cleverly written statement will work in their favour now. No doubt Klopp is pulling all the strings behind the scenes.

 

[90 + 5min]

In the Wolves game the referees head (or whatever his job is) went to the Wolves management straight after the game to say he was sure there had been an error. Maybe that hasn’t happened to you yet because the ref doesn’t actually think that there has been an error to acknowledge? It seems like you are saying that a lack of apology/acknowledgment from the referees chief proves your point that you should be publicly complaining more, but that feels like a non-sequitur. It’s only worth publicly complaining if the refs agree there was a mistake, otherwise it just seems like sour grapes.

Either way I just can’t see how that is comparable to what Liverpool have done, which I think was pointless, and a bad move on their part by the way.

Than the whole system must change and our club not only should, but must complain. Liverpool did right thing and our club should not be ashamed to do the same.

Only a fraction of big deciding decisions against us this year which is only 7 games. We had by now:

2 penalties against Wolves denied
1 penalty against Tottenham denied
1 clear goal denied for horrific offside against Arsenal. One goal against us what should have been freekick for us. No red card for Saka for planting his studs on our player.
1 goal taken away for horrific offside against Burnley.
1 goal against us from Crystal Palace for same thing we had been denied week before. 1 penalty denied for handball.

And lot of other minor decisions that affected the games.

How much do you need?

 

[Jeppers7]

In the Wolves game the referees head (or whatever his job is) went to the Wolves management straight after the game to say he was sure there had been an error. Maybe that hasn’t happened to you yet because the ref doesn’t actually think that there has been an error to acknowledge? It seems like you are saying that a lack of apology/acknowledgment from the referees chief proves your point that you should be publicly complaining more, but that feels like a non-sequitur. It’s only worth publicly complaining if the refs agree there was a mistake, otherwise it just seems like sour grapes.

Either way I just can’t see how that is comparable to what Liverpool have done, which I think was pointless, and a bad move on their part by the way.

So if I’m right what you’re saying is that every decision given against us and not given for us has been correct? At least in the mind of the refs head. I’ll let you think about the issues there.

The same wolves team we played and the same keeper who played for them that game was involved in an identical situation last season, with the same outcome, no penalty, also no appology. No outrage from media. In fact not a fecking mention of it.

There’s at least four penalties we should have had this season that I’ve not heard mention of or seen replays of since. Yet we get a stonewall one against Forest given and again there’s a two day inquest, on a penalty that is a penalty.

You come across as bitter, Abu but blinded by it.

 

[Josh 76]

That is actually hilarious from Liverpool, what a bunch of children.

What are they expecting to actually happen?

There was an incident a few seasons ago at Villa park (during lockdown) when the goal line technology wasn't working and a team didn't get awarded a legitimate goal. I think it may have been Sheff Utd. Think they went down by a couple of points. Now that was more serious than this scouse offside crap. Get over it you pricks!

 

[NicolaSacco]

Than the whole system must change and our club not only should, but must complain. Liverpool did right thing and our club should not be ashamed to do the same.

Only a fraction of big deciding decisions against us this year which is only 7 games. We had by now:

2 penalties against Wolves denied
1 penalty against Tottenham denied
1 clear goal denied for horrific offside against Arsenal. One goal against us what should have been freekick for us. No red card for Saka for planting his studs on our player.
1 goal taken away for horrific offside against Burnley.
1 goal against us from Crystal Palace for same thing we had been denied week before. 1 penalty denied for handball.

And lot of other minor decisions that affected the games.

How much do you need?

Not going to pretend I can remember all of those, but the fact that you think the offside decision in the Arsenal match was ‘horrific’ tells me a lot. I remember that one. It was offside. If Utd had tried to make a formal complaint about that they would rightly have been laughed at and the referees body would have politely, and correctly told them to feck right off. As they would with every team in the country. I’d wager if I went through your list with a fine toothcomb I’d find a lot of examples like that. Tight decisions, controversial even. Decisions where you could point to another game and another ref and find an inconsistency. That’s just football. Happens to you. Happens to every team. You just remember it when it’s you.

 

[Jeppers7]

Than the whole system must change and our club not only should, but must complain. Liverpool did right thing and our club should not be ashamed to do the same.

Only a fraction of big deciding decisions against us this year which is only 7 games. We had by now:

2 penalties against Wolves denied
1 penalty against Tottenham denied
1 clear goal denied for horrific offside against Arsenal. One goal against us what should have been freekick for us. No red card for Saka for planting his studs on our player.
1 goal taken away for horrific offside against Burnley.
1 goal against us from Crystal Palace for same thing we had been denied week before. 1 penalty denied for handball.

And lot of other minor decisions that affected the games.

How much do you need?

Jesus…I hadn’t even seen the two palace players offside on that. Not that it should matter but they had as much impact on the outcome as Hojlund did last week ie none.

How Evans goal v Burnley was ruled out is another joke.

 

[cjj]

I'm not sure you know what irony means.

"a state of affairs or an event that seems deliberately contrary to what one expects and is often wryly amusing as a result."

For example, people wanting to abolish VAR when it would in fact make the 'offside' decision even more offside, considering it wasn't VAR that disallowed the goal.

Since you're on a Utd forum, I'm not sure you need to be reminded, but you robbed Utd of points with that nonsense decision when Romero handled it against Utd.

Not sure I need to remind you of all of the VAR mistakes you've actually benefitted from (like a keeper wiping out two attackers flapping at thin air). That is far less subjective than the ever-morphing handball rule, where in one CL final Sissoko's armpit is handball (imagine if Liverpool were on the other side of that), or the one where they changed the handball rule when Dier had a penalty against him versus Newcastle, or the disallowed goal versus Sheffield United, where Moura was penalised for handball when they kicked the ball at his arm when he was on the ground.

Fact is, as bad as VAR can be, it's not as bad as the game was without it (Pedro Mendes, or the Nani goal versus Gomes), but it's absolutely ironic that people are talking about getting rid of VAR because it didn't correct the linesman's on-field decision.

 

[Jeppers7]

Not going to pretend I can remember all of those, but the fact that you think the offside decision in the Arsenal match was ‘horrific’ tells me a lot. I remember that one. It was offside. If Utd had tried to make a formal complaint about that they would rightly have been laughed at and the referees body would have politely, and correctly told them to feck right off. As they would with every team in the country. I’d wager if I went through your list with a fine toothcomb I’d find a lot of examples like that. Tight decisions, controversial even. Decisions where you could point to another game and another ref and find an inconsistency. That’s just football. Happens to you. Happens to every team. You just remember it when it’s you.

The funny thing is that you can’t remember them. But you remember a random incident for Wolves. Bet you don’t remember the similar incident involving the wolves keeper?

What makes you certain Garnacho was offside beside your ABU bias?