VAR, Refs and Linesmen | General Discussion

Beachryan said:
I said this about the Casemiro second red last season: VAR should not be used in slow motion for those decisions. Dozens of fouls each match look like leg breakers if you just see a still image. It also means that the way the match is refereed is different: the referee makes decisison in real-time and VAR officials get multiple angles, slow-motion, freeze frame and so forth. It's a complete sham.
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I think the Curtis Jones and Casemiro situations are different. Casemiro hits pretty much the middle of the ball and bounces over it with his foot because the Southampton player comes in at the same time and stops the movement of the ball, freak accidents and you see similar tackles weekly, while Jones clearly steps over the ball where it also looks like he’s more or less stepping directly down rather than trying to kick the ball. Looks awkward as feck.

Bobski said:
People on here keep insinuating that VAR has only been shit in England, my brother lives in Munich, they hate it, my cousin lives in Spain, they hate it, and I have seen a ton of awful VAR nonsense in CL and EL games which has nothing to do with English officiating.

However get rid of it and the first time a big decision is messed up people will be screaming for it to come back. At the moment, across every area of football fandom you have an utterly insane level of of conspiracy level horseshit/ advanced victimhood mentality with everyone crying that the refs have it out for their team. Take away VAR and that phenomenon just accelerates.

Would be happily rid of it, keep the line tech, and experiment with other improvements such as expanding the officiating team, get 2 or 3 refs on the pitch along with assistant refs. Should have been the starting point to improve the standards before bringing technology into a game with as many interpretive decisions as football throws up.
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VAR decisions in the CL and EL have been shit for some time, so it’s hardly just a problem in England. For me, in general, i think the obvious solution is to get rid of the clear and obvious barrier and accept VAR as a tool to reach the correct decisions rather than putting too much emphasis on the decision that was made on the pitch. Things happen quickly on a football pitch and expecting the referee to get a solid overview in every situation, just because he had line of sight, seems meaningless. I think we’d avoid quite a few frustrating situations. I can’t remember who we played, fairly certain it was under Ole, where the opposition scored a goal that was pretty much a clear attack on the goalkeeper. Ref allowed it and VAR didn’t step in as the referee on the pitch had seen the duel and allowed it. Then later in the match, Maguire (i think) fairly won the ball from the goalkeeper and before we tap it in the referee has already blown for a freekick so VAR can’t interveen afterwards anyway. Replay clearly showed the goalkeeper simply fecked up. For me, i think it would be a natural improvement to wait it out, and if a goal is scored communicate with VAR that there was a situation you weren’t completely sure was a freekick or not. Webb has a bit of a hard on for the clear and obvious stuff, wanting decisions to be made on the pitch, but i think it’s doing more damage than good. I still can’t understand how VAR didn’t make sure Nketiah got sent off for that horror tackle attempt against the Tottenham goalkeeper. It’s the very definition of endangering the safety of the opponent the way he jumped in, but because based on pure coincidence he doesn’t snap the goalkeepers leg in half it’s somehow only a yellow.
 
DennisReynolds said:
That never happened. In the game you refer to, City had a possible penalty not given, Fabinho then scored from the following counter attack and VAR decided it was a fair goal as they didn't deem it to be a City penalty.

There was no possible Liverpool penalty and no City goal overturned.
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fair, the old memory don't be great
 
Parma Dewol said:
Game’s been going downhill for a good while. VAR has accelerated the decline.
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Referees and VAR are just too much in focus in it's current state. They dictate the game in a way that's just hard to enjoy. Can't celebrate a goal proper, inconsistent VAR rulings, freeze frames that makes tackles or brawls seem worse. We have some games with 10+ added time and games with 3.

Without VAR there were errors, there was debate, there were wins and losses that felt sickening. But still the game felt more honest and homogeneous.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
:lol: Don’t think I will ever feel as positive about VAR as I do right now.
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Except this impacts United's chances of top 4 more than a Liverpool draw/win, unless wanting to see Liverpool not succeed is more important to you then United succeeding
 
LochGormanAbú said:
We keep hearing how forwards should have the advantage, more goals etc. To this end I would make the offside rule at least done against the players feet, removes all the angle nonsense, perspective and all that, be a lot more straight forward and give the attacking team bit of an advantage.

Also, the frame rate for current VAR is laughable, go have a chat with Pixar or other Hollywood heads, way to dodgy right now to say when the ball left a players foot when talking millimetres off/onside.

Finally, don't send Ref's to the monitor, it just creates more chance for bias or at least conspiracies. If VAR are sending the ref to the monitor, they believe the ref is wrong, job done, rightly or wrongly, just make that call in VAR with the two officials there.
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I think sending the ref to the monitor is fine, but not in its current implementation.

He was always going to send Jones off based on that footage. VAR sent him what would make him side with their judgement, rather than what he would need to make an informed judgement himself. It makes it nothing but theater to send him over for such footage.
 
NotThatSoph said:
No, it comes from Garnacho being ahead of Gabriel when the pass was played.
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According to the technology, but the technology isn't accurate enough to really tell us that. It's essentially a calculated guess even using the technology for the really tight offside calls.

If they are going to use the technology at hand to make the calls then they need a much bigger MOE because the current one is nowhere near big enough.
 
So the var assumed the goal hadn't been flagged offside, said check over and the ref assumed he meant check over, it is indeed offside.

So why doesn't the var say, 1 second after the ref motions for a freekick. No wait, I mean check over, it's onside.
 
LochGormanAbú said:
Except this impacts United's chances of top 4 more than a Liverpool draw/win, unless wanting to see Liverpool not succeed is more important to you then United succeeding
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Meh. It’s a long season.

Liverpool lose will never not be fun. Watching Liverpool lose due to an outrageous officiating error is about as good as it gets.
 
90 + 5min said:
You can’t release audio days later and think people are going to believe it. You do that right away. I’ve always said, if they are going to continiue with this VAR madness atleast have cams and mic on referees and VAR room all the time.
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No idea if they need the refs involved to sign off on releasing the audio or not. I wonder what they do with the video overlay that they show in the stadium and on tv during checks, if it’s shown in the VAR room during/after,

Maybe it is such an insane combination of stupidity on every level, but i do think it’s strange that no lines were drawn up and that their check was over almost instantly. Again, normally we see clearer situations being verified, Diaz being onside isn’t that obvious to the point where there’s no need for lines to verify it, but maybe the VAR is insanely good at instantly measuring things with his eyes, just awful at actually communicating it.

I like a bit of a scandal, right now it feels like too many coincidences happening at the same time
 
Var is just ridiculous. I watched both the live league cup games during the week and they were so much better to watch knowing you could celebrate goals immediately and fouls weren't going to be looked at in case they could pull up a still shot of something looking dangerous. Every time a goal is scored, it's now at least a 30 second wait just in case it's being checked for something.

If Var can't rule out human error then we should go back to the original human error of on field referees. At the moment all we are getting is a more game flow interrupting, protracted form of human error, that also manages to disconnect fans and players from a pretty important moment of a football match....celebrating a goal as the ball hit's the net.
 
B20 said:
I think sending the ref to the monitor is fine, but not in its current implementation.

He was always going to send Jones off based on that footage. VAR sent him what would make him side with their judgement, rather than what he would need to make an informed judgement himself. It makes it nothing but theater to send him over for such footage.
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They did the same with Casemiro last year.

Showed the still of him holding the Palace player, and the one where his foot connected with the player rather than the entire flow of the challenge.

It's delivered in such a way to make sure the referee gives the red card.
 
Oranges038 said:
They did the same with Casemiro last year.

Showed the still of him holding the Palace player, and the one where his foot connected with the player rather than the entire flow of the challenge.

It's delivered in such a way to make sure the referee gives the red card.
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Sports entertainment.
 
It’s a bit of a shambles start to the season for officiating…I’m confused how they’re getting worse rather than better?

They should be on the top of their game due to the initial errors but instead it’s like a car crash pile up.:wenger:
 
Ananke said:
It’s a bit of a shambles start to the season for officiating…I’m confused how they’re getting worse rather than better?

They should be on the top of their game due to the initial errors but instead it’s like a car crash pile up.:wenger:
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It has gotten much worse since Webb became in charge of PGMOL. He seems to giving the refs and VAR different instructions every few weeks and they end up looking more clueless than usual.
 
Idxomer said:
It has gotten much worse since Webb became in charge of PGMOL. He seems to giving the refs and VAR different instructions every few weeks and they end up looking more clueless than usual.
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I don’t think it is any different how we are being treated. We get same wierd and crazy decisions against us and I would say it is 1 of 15 decisions for us. 14/15 are against us.
 
90 + 5min said:
I don’t think it is any different how we are being treated. We get same wierd and crazy decisions against us and I would say it is 1 of 15 decisions for us. 14/15 are against us.
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Webb got his position in 2022 and I would say we have been getting worse decisions than usual since.
 
Dumbstar said:
Exactly, thank you. He wouldn't have flagged a similar situation if Son scored that. Something's not quite right. Then Darren 'makes a mistake' straight after, or something. Yeah, all above board.
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Son literally had a goal flagged for offside in the 2nd half, it was even the same linesman :lol:
 
Idxomer said:
Webb got his position in 2022 and I would say we have been getting worse decisions than usual since.
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I can’t say why people feel that way. I think it could do with it is starting to affect other teams that are more media darlings and it is more in the light.
However my opinion is that this is not new when it comes to us. We have for long time and still are getting crazy decisions against us. Pretty much every gameweek. We are not good enough team in first place but club shouldn’t accept being denied to even have chance.
 
They should have just stuck with the lines drawn in the wrong place excuse, as what actually happened is even more ridiculous.

Surely he thought it was a bit odd when there were no mad celebrations after the shot went in.
 
It is and always has been a job for the boys scenario.

You hear the recordings and its " can you check this please mate " and " ok thanks mate " etc.

Apparently, you cannot bring in ex players to use VAR for whatever reason, probably to protect their fellow colleagues.

What we need is non refs and properly trained professional people specifically for VAR.

If they then completely mess up a few times then they just lose their job like any normal person, this does not happen when its a job for the boys scenario, they will bunker down and protect their own.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Meh. It’s a long season.

Liverpool lose will never not be fun. Watching Liverpool lose due to an outrageous officiating error is about as good as it gets.
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Yea, true, until you realise the reaction it’ll cause moving forward in terms of ref decisions for them.
 
C'est Moi Cantona said:
They should have just stuck with the lines drawn in the wrong place excuse, as what actually happened is even more ridiculous.

Surely he thought it was a bit odd when there were no mad celebrations after the shot went in.
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Their reasoning is just unfathomable to me. I really thought that they just saw Diaz was clearly ahead of the full back(Porro) and went "check complete", whilst missing Romero playing him on in the middle. It still would have been totally egregious but less so than what they've come out with.
 
So we’ve been on the shit end of about 5 harsh VAR calls already this season and about 3 have been clear errors which have examples either the week before/same week/week after of being called in another team’s favour.

Despite this I genuinely cannot remember a single time a commentator or pundit has admitted that we have been hard done by on any single decision and often the decision is omitted from highlights and not even discussed and it stinks to high heaven.


Regarding this offside incident, there is no way Howard Webb can omit it from his VAR review show and I refuse to believe that they would re-record the VAR incident to back up their story because the amount of people that would have to be involved for that conspiracy to be true is ridiculous and would end in jail time so it’s fair to believe that the explanation they are giving is the truth.
 
Pexbo said:
So we’ve been on the shit end of about 5 harsh VAR calls already this season and about 3 have been clear errors which have examples either the week before/same week/week after of being called in another team’s favour.

Despite this I genuinely cannot remember a single time a commentator or pundit has admitted that we have been hard done by on any single decision and often the decision is omitted from highlights and not even discussed and it stinks to high heaven.
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It’s disgusting isn’t it. Liverpool get a bad call against them (and it really was) and it’s literally the talk of town with a written apology, refs standing down from duty, with most likely any 50/50 decisions to go their way for the foreseeable future, all the media jumping to defend them and how well they played.

They brush anything against us under the carpet like it never happened.
 
The offside mistake was pretty criminal. How can they miss the last defender. Then again Liverpool had so many calls going in their favour.

That game v Wolves last year, the Lukaku offside in the league cup final, no red for VVD stamp last year, no second yellow for Milner v City iirc.

It does even out, nearly I guess.
 
LochGormanAbú said:
Except this impacts United's chances of top 4 more than a Liverpool draw/win, unless wanting to see Liverpool not succeed is more important to you then United succeeding
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Welcome to cafmoon. You'll get used to it. Blue jerseys are on backorder.
 
VAR has pros and cons, but for me it has killed celebrating a goal...pausing a few seconds to check if the linesman has raised a flag doesn't stop any enjoyment.

But waiting 2 minutes for VAR to check a goal just completely changes how I watch football...how we have settled on a system like this is bonkers.

Plus the amount of good goals that are being disallowed is just crazy...right or wrong no one is going away from grounds congratulating the officials for disallowing a beautiful worked goal because the players shoulder was 2 pixels ahead of the defender.
 
I don't get the use of the term "human error". It's as if we think VAR is some ultra advanced artificial intelligence system whose perfections are blighted by bumbling humans.

VAR is a human looking at a screen talking to another human on a football pitch. We need to stop thinking of this as "technology"
 
Hang on, did var think it was onside but didn't realise the linesman signalled it offside now?
 
At this point, I don't know who's having a worse season, the referees or United.
 
Use it to determine whether the ball went out of the field of play during the build up to a goal.

Offsides should be adjudicated by looking at a single image with the dictation being that 'basically level is onside' even if you can draw a line on the screen to proove someone's kneecap was ahead of the last defender, and if there is doubt the benefit of that doubt should be given to the attacking team.

Replays only to be reviewed at full speed, with slow motion only allowed for incidences of violent conduct.

If any decision takes more that 30 seconds then whatever the on field decision was, it stands. There will absolutely be errors and mistakes and wrong decisions. Boo fecking hoo.
 
Garnacho's Shoelaces said:
Except he's behind him when you measure with correct angle, frame and body part.

If you can't understand that, I suspect you're too dense to follow football generally.
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There's no need for this. People can have different opinions to you.
 
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