Corrupt cnuts.
He did, though? He said he didn't think it was a penalty, that he'd prefer no foul being given in that instance.Howard Webb is a bit of a tool. He doesn’t really say anything about the penalty decision in itself, just that VAR should’ve stayed out of it.
He did, though? He said he didn't think it was a penalty, that he'd prefer no foul being given in that instance.
Here:Where?
WEBB'S VERDICT:
I thought it was a misread by the VAR Michael Oliver. A VAR who is normally very talented and reliable. He got uber-focused in this situation with De Ligt's leg.
His leg coming through onto Danny Ings, not making any contact with the ball. The VAR sees that as a clear foul but I don't think he should get involved.
I think this is a situation where you leave the on-field decision as it is, probably whichever way it's called. VAR got too focused on the swinging leg from De Ligt.
Referees are told they are within their rights to stick to their original decision but of course, when they are sent to the screen, they are going because the VAR has identified what they perceive is an error. That judgment might be wrong, as it was in this case. They need to still look at the monitor with fresh eyes and make a call.
"And the VAR sees that as a clear foul. I think he was too focused on that aspect. I don't think he should have got involved. I think this is a situation where we'd leave the on-field decision as it is, probably whichever way it's called. On balance, I don't think it's a penalty kick. I would prefer no foul being given, no penalty."
The fact it was Ten Hag's last game and the fact we missed so many chances in the match, the penalty was a case of "yes it's not a penalty, but United were architects of their own downfall"That’s appalling really. Surprised more isn’t being made of it.
Here:
Here:
Whilst this is just Oliver getting it completely wrong (due to bias or otherwise), the Webb quotes still emphasis the overall problem. On one hand, he says that he thinks a penalty shouldn’t be given. On the other, he says it’s the onfield referee’s call.
The correct answer is that the VAR should have been concluding that it wasn’t a foul and should have been intervening if the referee gave it. At worst, they could then have a sensible discussion about it. The question the VAR should always be asking is “do I think that’s a foul”. If they disagree with the onfield ref, then it should be a discussion with the benefit of all replays. Do away with this “clear and obvious” nonsense.
Where?
WEBB'S VERDICT:
I thought it was a misread by the VAR Michael Oliver. A VAR who is normally very talented and reliable. He got uber-focused in this situation with De Ligt's leg.
His leg coming through onto Danny Ings, not making any contact with the ball. The VAR sees that as a clear foul but I don't think he should get involved.
I think this is a situation where you leave the on-field decision as it is, probably whichever way it's called. VAR got too focused on the swinging leg from De Ligt.
Referees are told they are within their rights to stick to their original decision but of course, when they are sent to the screen, they are going because the VAR has identified what they perceive is an error. That judgment might be wrong, as it was in this case. They need to still look at the monitor with fresh eyes and make a call.
That depends on what teams you support.Oliver is one of the worst 'big match' referees in the last 25 years
I still don't get why VAR is used to look for fouls and often to negatively influence games. Nobody wanted it for that.
Whilst this is just Oliver getting it completely wrong (due to bias or otherwise), the Webb quotes still emphasis the overall problem. On one hand, he says that he thinks a penalty shouldn’t be given. On the other, he says it’s the onfield referee’s call.
The correct answer is that the VAR should have been concluding that it wasn’t a foul and should have been intervening if the referee gave it. At worst, they could then have a sensible discussion about it. The question the VAR should always be asking is “do I think that’s a foul”. If they disagree with the onfield ref, then it should be a discussion with the benefit of all replays. Do away with this “clear and obvious” nonsense.
Definitely. Case in point the West Ham one, Coote is shown an angle that clearly shows contact on the ball from De Ligt, then doesn't show it again saying the other angle 'is the best one', which is just blatantly false. Whole thing is a nonsense. I've said for ages, VAR should only interfere if there is a red card issue the ref has missed. Otherwise, everything is the refs call unless he himself wants something checked. The fact semi automated offsides are coming in will also help. They've mucked the whole operation up so badly.Seems like a good example of how VAR ought to be pproviding the best possible info to the ref but are instead just pushing their own angle.
Some day we'll see a ref go to the screen, be shown multiple angles and stick to the original decision. Seems very far away with this generation of referees.
The Southampton one? Aye that was a farce. If there is even a foul there it's on the Southampton player!Never mind doing away with clear and obvious. How about doing away with VAR? Seems like the best solution to me. Because, yet again, the most controversial VAR incident of the weekend involves a referee getting the call right in real time. Which has been a theme of all the most egregious VAR interventions.
Definitely. Case in point the West Ham one, Coote is shown an angle that clearly shows contact on the ball from De Ligt, then doesn't show it again saying the other angle 'is the best one', which is just blatantly false. Whole thing is a nonsense. I've said for ages, VAR should only interfere if there is a red card issue the ref has missed. Otherwise, everything is the refs call unless he himself wants something checked. The fact semi automated offsides are coming in will also help. They've mucked the whole operation up so badly.
Indeed! But as I mentioned to B20, this nonsense of not even showing the refs all angles is something that could be rectified immediately, they literally just have to show the refs. But aye I'm tired of the whole thing.Even that is a shambles. As per Bruno being incorrectly sent off against Spurs. A call the ref got right in real time. Just bin the fecking thing. It would improve football no end.
Even that is a shambles. As per Bruno being incorrectly sent off against Spurs. A call the ref got right in real time. Just bin the fecking thing. It would improve football no end.
Yes, this is maddening and these insights into how it’s being deployed make it so obvious. The point of VAR should be to give the on-pitch referee the best information to make a decision. Instead it’s used to nudge them towards a pre-determined decision. And it’s so glaring I can’t believe it isn’t causing an uproar.Some day we'll see a ref go to the screen, be shown multiple angles and stick to the original decision. Seems very far away with this generation of referees.
Yes, this is maddening and these insights into how it’s being deployed make it so obvious. The point of VAR should be to give the on-pitch referee the best information to make a decision. Instead it’s used to nudge them towards a pre-determined decision. And it’s so glaring I can’t believe it isn’t causing an uproar.
If you’re not gonna abolish VAR all-together, which would by far be the best thing for football, I still think it would be better to give the referee three angles in real time. They can see each angle once and then must make a decision within 30 seconds. If you can’t make a decision based on that, the call stands as it’s obviously not a clear error.
Have Webb and Oliver apologised to the club and Ten Hag yet?
I’ll give Coote a pass because he probably has his hands full at the minute but if this were Arsenal or Liverpool the other two would be publicly apologising, sending flowers and a Nando’s voucher.
Yeah - the chat is "give the penalty" pretty much. He asks for a better angle - nothing. Oliver says "theres contact from de Ligt" as if there's no contact from the West Ham player I forget the name of. He asks if they're in control of the ball - ignored.That depends on what teams you support.
We really should be calling this out. Klopp, Fergie, Mourinho would all mention this and keep it in the news. At the very least it would ensure we don't get Oliver again anytime soon, which in of itself will help our results.
I imagine there's also the untold pressure and ego of not wanting to be the first VAR to be overruled.
Everytime the ref is sent to the monitor, it's an automatic change to the initial decision.
I can't think of a single event where the opposite has occurred.
Also, all this refs and decisions talk over the past few days has got wondering if there is or should be an independent party that does a check the checker type audit on refs decision making. One that looks at events beyond a singular match, identifying gaps in knowledge, behaviour pattern, baises etc. I'll be curious to know if a ref has a tendency to make certain decisions, e.g. in the 50/50 type situation outside a small sample size. I suspect there's plenty of insight to be gained there.
Where do you guys hear all the chat between ref and VAR? I feel sorry for Coote, by the way.
