VAR and Refs | General Discussion
- Thread starter Samid
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Yep fair point. Fernandinho as well was a prodigy at ducking obvious bookings
Absolute bastards the pair of them.
Yep fair point. Fernandinho as well was a prodigy at ducking obvious bookings
And our own Ramires. And Lucas Leiva. And Fabinho. I’m sensing a trend here
That Herrera one was unprecedented and he actually got punished for the accumulative fouls of the team on Hazard which was widely criticised at the time.
I disagree on the second point. You'll get a first yellow for accumulation but refs are reluctant to give a second yellow if none of the individual fouls are without of a yellow. I don't believe I've ever seen that.
That notable example is another unprecedented case of Michael Oliver fecking over United. Herrera previous to that got MOTM for how he man marked Hazard out of the game and was in the same role again. Oliver had given him the softest yellow card 10 mins before. Then spoke to Smalling after two other players fouled Hazard apparently telling him to cut out the targeting of Hazard. He restarted the play giving Smalling no time to relay the message to the rest of the team that Oliver was protecting Hazard and Herrera did a very trivial foul on Hazard less than 30 seconds after and Oliver was straight over to show him the second yellow and send him off.
Utterly preposterous refereeing from Oliver that has never been repeated again.
But usually this is because the ref gives the player a warning after 1 or 2 additional fouls and they curb their behaviour. I also don't believe I've seen a player commit 5 fouls after being booked in any match that didn't involve Man City?
If you’re going to bring up one of the most controversial red cards ever - from seven years ago - then you’re definitely reaching! That was a particularly bizarre one because he punished Hererra for multiple fouls made by his team mates. We both know that a second yellow card is almost always for an absolutely nailed down discrete yellow card offence. You just don’t see players getting sent off for a few minor fouls after being booked. And you regularly see players commit multiple minor fouls after being booked. And if they ever start to push their luck the referee will have a word. Which didn’t happen today because nothing Ugarte did came close to merit being sent off.
And our own Ramires. And Lucas Leiva. And Fabinho. I’m sensing a trend here
Casemiro bucks that trend
Fred never got the memoAnd our own Ramires. And Lucas Leiva. And Fabinho. I’m sensing a trend here
Chelsea boss Enzo Maresca is in no doubt Lisandro Martinez should have been sent off for his tackle on Cole Palmer.
Maresca confirmed Palmer was in the visitors' dressing room with ice on his knee.
"I think it is quite clear for all of us but the referee took a different decision," said Maresca.
"When you don’t go for the ball and just the man it is a red."
Maresca has no problem calling it out. I wonder why our managers have problem to come out in the post match and say we should have got a penalty or two. Its useless, but it still put a point out there that we are not getting the penalties. Ruud could have come out and said we played well. Should have got two penalties and Chelsea players should have seen two yellows. Let media call them as excuses if they want, but the point is made.
Maresca confirmed Palmer was in the visitors' dressing room with ice on his knee.
"I think it is quite clear for all of us but the referee took a different decision," said Maresca.
"When you don’t go for the ball and just the man it is a red."
Maresca has no problem calling it out. I wonder why our managers have problem to come out in the post match and say we should have got a penalty or two. Its useless, but it still put a point out there that we are not getting the penalties. Ruud could have come out and said we played well. Should have got two penalties and Chelsea players should have seen two yellows. Let media call them as excuses if they want, but the point is made.
Ah sorry fellas; somehow it totally slipped my mind that that second Herrera yellow was for team foul accumulation; thought it was on him personally but my memory is shit. My apologies.
We both know that a second yellow card is almost always for an absolutely nailed down discrete yellow card offence. You just don’t see players getting sent off for a few minor fouls after being booked. And you regularly see players commit multiple minor fouls after being booked. And if they ever start to push their luck the referee will have a word. Which didn’t happen today because nothing Ugarte did came close to merit being sent off.
Still think it's rare that any player is allowed to get away with 5 fouls in a half without a booking. Again don't think any of them rose to the level of a yellow on their own but it's also a bit crazy that he got away with such persistent fouling without Jones ticking him off.
There's literally a line in the rules that says "no specific number constitutes "persistent""
- persistent offences (no specific number or pattern of offences constitutes “persistent”)
Fair enough and thanks for checking the rule book. For the record, my broader point isn't that Chelsea got fecked over by the ref; it's that for the most part there were pretty minimal advantages to both sides that likely cancelled out over the course of the match.
Didn't properly realise that Estupinan stat from yesterday; fair dues!
To be fair to you that exact thing crossed my mind (even if a couple of them were harsh fouls). I did wonder if he was walking a line and needed taking off.
I will say that I never thought he was out of control - and he was quite good at being disruptive by making sure he was positioned correctly instead of having to foul whilst scrambling to recover. Case in point for me was at one point in the last ~20 minutes Neto got somewhat free down our right and Ugarte did very well to make his presence felt to force Neto wide whilst not fully committing to a challenge (believe that let Mazraoui recover enough to put it out for a corner?)
How many did Fofana make on top of the ones he should have been called for?
Yeah, it looked like they'd both failed to make the challenge, but Ugarte essentially didn't try. He basically just got himself in the way so Neto ended up having to carry the ball a bit wider and a bit closer to the touchline, then Mazraoui got back and squeezed him out.
I'm genuinely baffled at this attempt to build a strawman?
Yep this was very impressive from Ugarte I thought. Knew exactly how to toe the line.
I dont mind Rob Jones. He makes some bad and random calls and he isn't particularly good but the standard is so desperate that i'd say he's miles from the worst. It doesn't feel like he has a vendetta or is desperate to make the match about himself which is a low bar that a lot of ref's are failing on.
Another Michael Oliver special that one. The cnut.
Another Michael Oliver special that one. The cnut.
Build a straw man? You talked about consecutive fouls, 5 or so, being enough to justify a yellow. Chelsea CB's created so many fouls on Højlund alone - none of them worthy of a yellow at all, but following your logic, at least one should have received a yellow.
Mourinho was not happy with the VAR last night ...
Except that isn't even close to what we were discussing? Also Fofana got called for 3 fouls and Colwill for 2. Combined fewer than Ugarte.
You brought up "fouls he should have been called for" which is an entirely separate topic and irrelevant to the discussion. Hence straw man.
Fairly certain it was hererras first foul but a team accumulation of fouls. Not that it's relevant
I’m surprised people are still going on about yesterday. The ref was rubbish but what’s new. Odd they missed what looked like a foul and pen on Rashford (did they even check?) but that aside nothing really game changing as such.
Yeah my mistake; somehow memory-holed that and thought it was Herrera getting a second yellow for accumulation on his own.
So what on earth were you discussing? You said Ugarte should have seen red for an accumulation of fouls, none of which were a yellow in itself. Just like Fofana who constantly wrestled Højlund - none were more than fouls; if anything, I think the ref should let more of those go as both are at it - Højlund should probably have had a penalty though; I do wonder how refs can see that neck and not think that we might wanna see VAR for what happened.
The question then, is there a rule for an accumulation of fouls resulting in a yellow? I cannot find such a rule - there is an option to give it, but there doesn't seem to be a rule about it. We also know that refs tend to give the first yellow much easier than the second. Ugarte made one clear yellow card offense, and no more, so I don't see the issue.
Must not forget the entire Tottenham squad at some point. Liverpool and City have been terrible at these tactical fouls for a decade almost. Whenever a Pep team loses the ball, they flock around and commit to a cynical foul if they cannot get the ball - they often do this just as they lose the ball, so even if it is a counter, they do it deep into the opposition half, and the refs rarely ever book anyone for that; however, there is no rule about that. The rule is that tactical fouls is pretty much an automatic yellow, and there is no discussion on where on the pitch or how early in games. You see it game after game that players get away with it, and then suddenly out of nowhere, a substitute who came on in the 78th minute gets booked for doing what has been done for about an hour. Refs are inconsistent even in the same game. If refs had done their job, Pep would not be able to play the way he does - part of his tactic hinges on not giving away the ball in those situations, and thus creating a cynical foul mitigates that risk.And our own Ramires. And Lucas Leiva. And Fabinho. I’m sensing a trend here
Then you have players who should have seen yellows or even red cards every match: Robertson is a thug; he often over commits with nasty swings, elbows and kicks to the ancles even when the ball is out. Mane was also terrible with those late challenges. Currently, the worst one is probably Joelinton - thug! Because none of these are red card offences, VAR never checks them, even if they are on a yellow. Why not?
We were discussing the fact that it's quite rare to see a player get away with 5 fouls without getting booked? The rule was clarified and is up to the ref's discretion - the discussion was solely on the ref allowing a player to get away with so many whistled fouls.
Again, I don't think this was a huge deal or anything - I just took issue with the reaction of many on here that the ref was hugely slanted against Man United; didn't see that at all.
Also Hojlund getting a penalty for being grazed slightly by Colwill would have been a scandalous decision.
Don't remember the tackle on Rashford whatever that was. Martinez I thought was a clear red but that's not on the ref so much as its where VAR should come in, amd there always seems to be an agenda with how they use VAR.
It was the simple stuff though. He gave Chelsea multiple freekicks where players just fell over. A few where it was impossible to even incorrectly think it was a foul as no one was close enough to have made contact. He stopped the game just before we might have scored, yet at other points played advantage for obscene amounts of time before bringing it back.
And his linesmen were no better. Game was stopped during a very promising attack first half where Garnqcho was, at worst, about 0.1mm offside. Same thing second half where we had a very dangerous break amd Garnacho was flagged offside before he was even out of his own half.
This is amateur type stuff. It's not even down to not seeing an incident clearly just basic technical errors stopping the game when you shouldn't and at key moments.
If the ref makes a complete mess of a game where basically nothing happened it's really not a good sign.
I’m sure the wrong decision for the Bruno red probably factored into Martinez not getting one. I’m not 100% I’d want to see a red for that but I figured it would be after they showed 50 replays in slow motion.
There wasn’t any force in the tackle, the worst that might have happened was a few scratches on his leg, probably no different to what Hojlund had on his neck. The majority of slide tackles are more dangerous, regardless of height of impact.
There wasn’t any force in the tackle, the worst that might have happened was a few scratches on his leg, probably no different to what Hojlund had on his neck. The majority of slide tackles are more dangerous, regardless of height of impact.
I watched the match, all the decisions that VAR made where correct. He is just salty that his team conceded 2 pens and didn't get one themselves. But he doesn't mention that becuase of all those VAR decisions, the ref had to give 12min added time, which gave Fenerbahce time to come back and win the match in overtime.
Also on a different note, how the actual feck didn't VAR check the tackle on Rashford in the box yesterday??? That was more of a pen then the pen we got for Højlund.
Seeing Dermot Gallagher say he didn’t think the Fatawa shoulder charge was a penalty this morning was interesting
Didn't see the game so can't comment on that but watched the interview and there seems to be a historie with the one specific VAR so reminded me on Oliver.
Both are stonewall penalties IMO. I am surprised that there isn't more talk about the rashford one.
I thought Rob Jones was awful. I don't mind that he sets a high bar for cards, that's about his only upside imo.
I have no idea why the linesman instantly flagged Garnacho as offside, as the standard practice is to keep a heavy flag and wait until the situation is over. It looked fairly fecking tight on the replay. It happened twice, both linesmen.. The entire point is to let them play on, if the play stops up then signal but don't fecking instantly flag.
He had quite a few terrible ones where he failed to consider advantage before blowing the whistle, including one where we nearly scored which would've been disallowed due to Jones blowing too early.
I also thought he was way too poor at adjudging fouls, Chelsea player would make an initial foul, then go down in another duel, and somehow ends up being awarded the freekick. j
I have no idea why the linesman instantly flagged Garnacho as offside, as the standard practice is to keep a heavy flag and wait until the situation is over. It looked fairly fecking tight on the replay. It happened twice, both linesmen.. The entire point is to let them play on, if the play stops up then signal but don't fecking instantly flag.
He had quite a few terrible ones where he failed to consider advantage before blowing the whistle, including one where we nearly scored which would've been disallowed due to Jones blowing too early.
I also thought he was way too poor at adjudging fouls, Chelsea player would make an initial foul, then go down in another duel, and somehow ends up being awarded the freekick. j
He did see his players blocking our players off from the ball constantly, when they were not the player with the ball. Also, he witnessed them wrestling players off the ball. I recall an incident late in game where the Chelsea defender was basically skiing behind Garanacho, so he couldn't get a give and go...just holding him from behind by the waste. I know those are not red card offences but if he's saying you play the man, not the ball...well they were doing that all match.
I posted in the match thread, that this performance from Chelsea was a lite version of Mourinhos Chelsea imo. Just cntish behaviour and borderline cheating in those situations you mentioned or "dark arts" as some would call it. Just out to break up momentum for MU and any tempo in the match and try to score on the break.
I don't agree with you. Two very, very soft penalties given. I can understand Mourinho in that sense. His post match interviews is something I wish our managers could learn from when we had some of ridiculous decisions for some years now.
Ah, the Webb special, holding your hands up, saying "yep, we got it wrong", and hoping it goes away. No sanction for Oliver I presume?
Michal Oliver gets Chelsea-Arsenal with Tierney at VAR
This is going to be great !