Van De Beek | Everton Loan Watch

[ayushreddevil9]

That's the worrying part. It was obvious at Ajax he was naff, but we still spent so much on him. I wouldn't have had him for free.

So naff that he was almost signed by Real Madrid?

 

[Yagami]

So naff that he was almost signed by Real Madrid?

Yes! I was gutted when they decided to not pursue him. They were conned for a bit into thinking he was decent, too.

 

[Marwood]

Clear this one was a signing by the recruitment team, one that Ole trusted them on and decided not to veto.
Obviously Ole and Carrick got a real shock when he turned up and started training.

It's still on Ole then. He's the manager and had final say.

Not into this thing of absolving managers of their own recruitment mistakes.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

It's still on Ole then. He's the manager and had final say.

Absolutely. It’s great to trust a recruitment team and we’ve all heard the stories that Liverpool’s team bought Salah rather than Klopp, and that’s great on the likes of Ahmed or a Dalot.
On a big money signing like DvB though, I think a manager should do his due diligence as ultimately it’ll land on him.
I guess that’s where the trust is won and lost and why it’s important to have a transfer strategy that works.

 

[sewey89]

Are we all ready to accept that he's not good enough then?

 

[Oranges038]

I always thought he should have been given more time by Ole. But it looks like he isn't cut out for the PL.

He did look good for Ajax, but then again so do Tadic and Haller and neither of them did much in England.

 

[MUFC OK]

Are we all ready to accept that he's not good enough then?

We should already know that in terms of holding midfield. He’s a system player who plays much higher up the pitch - concerning for Everton that Lampard cited his versatility and has played him at 6.

 

[GaryLifo]

He's moved from a poor united side, into a relegation quality Everton side with a manager who has largely been given jobs because of his name.

He's clearly not good enough for United, but I bet he'd look a lot better if he was playing somewhere like Leicester or Southampton.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I don’t think any player was foisted on him, it’s been made clear by the club they give a manager a veto so this doesn’t occur.
Quite clear Fred on Mourinho and DvB on Ole were two that came more from the recruitment team.
Now Bruno or AWB may have been exactly the same and not “Ole signings” as such (unlike Mourinho where it was crystal clear Zlatan, Matic were his), who knows, but what we can be sure of is that unlike DvB they turned up at training and impressed.

That’s what I’m getting at. Why is it “quite clear” they were “more from the recruitment” team than any other of the manager’s signings?

 

[AngeloHenriquez]

I do think there is a player there but he relies on the system that suits him simply, a bit like a lot of these Dortmund players that don't do well after leaving Dortmund, they need that style of system and neither us or Everton are close to showing any sort of cohesive system whether it suit Donny or not which is why individualistic players like Bruno & Rashford put up great numbers as I think they thrive on it

 

[romufc]

Are we all ready to accept that he's not good enough then?

There was a combination of reasons why he was overrated.
1. Ole didn't play him - People didn't rate Ole's coaching ability so thought he cannot get best of him
2. McFred - Hatred for them starting most games became love for Donny

I have seen Donny's biggest fan Mark Goldbridge on twitter after Everton won 1 game literally creaming over his performance when he passes sideways, yet when they get battered, he blamed the defence.

Donny is an example of how far United fans run with player agendas, almost every fan has a favourite and one they really dislike.

Instead, we should be looking at all these players without any attachment. The only player I would stick my neck for at the moment is Sancho. In the last few months, he has been our only performer.

 

[Banat]

I always thought he should have been given more time by Ole. But it looks like he isn't cut out for the PL.

He did look good for Ajax, but then again so do Tadic and Haller and neither of them did much in England.

To be honest, Tadic was very good for Soton, and him going back to Eredivisie at his peak was quite a surprise for me.
I always thought he could do a decent job for a team like Everton/Leicester or even Arsenal.

 

[Brophs]

Probably just needs another loan from Everton to prove himself as the world class player he is. And then a series of progressively worse loans to lower and lower clubs, all in the same season, like some massive Russian doll type scenario. And then he moves back to Ajax for £14m, scores two goals against Volendam and this place goes apeshit.

 

[SER19]

I remember at the time alot of talk that Solskjaer didn't want him and he was a Woodward pressure signing. One last gift from fat head

 

[VanDeBank]

There was a combination of reasons why he was overrated.
1. Ole didn't play him - People didn't rate Ole's coaching ability so thought he cannot get best of him
2. McFred - Hatred for them starting most games became love for Donny

I have seen Donny's biggest fan Mark Goldbridge on twitter after Everton won 1 game literally creaming over his performance when he passes sideways, yet when they get battered, he blamed the defence.

Donny is an example of how far United fans run with player agendas, almost every fan has a favourite and one they really dislike.

Instead, we should be looking at all these players without any attachment. The only player I would stick my neck for at the moment is Sancho. In the last few months, he has been our only performer.

How did VDB do in the 2nd half?

I see a lot of people on here loving that they got battered, but the same people talk in such vague terms about VDB's actual performance that I doubt they've watched the match. That, or they're incapable of separating the result from the performance.

He wasn't culpable in the slightest for the first 2 goals. Replace Donny with prime Zidane and those goals would play out exactly the same.

The 3rd goal wasn't on him either, but I think a top DM intercepts the ball in the build up to the goal.

I don't care for Mark Goldshite, but based on what I saw in the first half, blaming the defense for the result seems about right. And he did have a very good game not too long ago. According to you, he can only be praised for the good performance if he's also wrongfully blamed for the battering against Spurs?

Donny was bang average yesterday, just like he has been in most of his games for Everton. He's not the reason they got battered.

I remember at the time alot of talk that Solskjaer didn't want him and he was a Woodward pressure signing. One last gift from fat head

It's been reported he had a veto. I think it's more likely that the same man that decided to spend 80m for Maguire and 50m for AWB, thought 35m for Donny was also a good idea. It's not like the VDB signing is the odd one out in Ole's recruitment. That's Bruno.

 

[sewey89]

There was a combination of reasons why he was overrated.
1. Ole didn't play him - People didn't rate Ole's coaching ability so thought he cannot get best of him
2. McFred - Hatred for them starting most games became love for Donny

I have seen Donny's biggest fan Mark Goldbridge on twitter after Everton won 1 game literally creaming over his performance when he passes sideways, yet when they get battered, he blamed the defence.

Donny is an example of how far United fans run with player agendas, almost every fan has a favourite and one they really dislike.

Instead, we should be looking at all these players without any attachment. The only player I would stick my neck for at the moment is Sancho. In the last few months, he has been our only performer.

I completely agree. Similar to Henderson fans, but they calmed down when he had a chance and clearly wasn't as good as De Gea.

On the other side is Maguire, who gets blamed for everything (this isn't a defence, he's been very poor this season, but he's not half as bad as these people would have you believe)

 

[Fortitude]

I do think there is a player there but he relies on the system that suits him simply, a bit like a lot of these Dortmund players that don't do well after leaving Dortmund, they need that style of system and neither us or Everton are close to showing any sort of cohesive system whether it suit Donny or not which is why individualistic players like Bruno & Rashford put up great numbers as I think they thrive on it

Sage words.

Simple fact is whoever was looking at him as a signing should have considered this from the get-go.

We can barely string two passes let alone have a coherent, superfluous system, so what was the point of buying him? He's a cog in a much bigger and efficient machine, put him in a side that functions, and he'll do his bit, even if underwhelming compared to the best players.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

That’s what I’m getting at. Why is it “quite clear” they were “more from the recruitment” team than any other of the manager’s signings?

I have no idea if Bruno for example was more from the recruitment team also, nor have I claimed it. Hell maybe all the signings were as much from them, but DvB’s lack of play time makes it clear that he was certainly more of a recruitment team signing than a signing Ole himself did masses of homework on.

I don’t think it’s clear either way with Bruno, Maguire, AWB as Ole clearly favoured them from
day one. Maybe because he did his homework, or maybe because they were signed more from the recruitment team but instantly impressed in training.

 

[Oranges038]

I completely agree. Similar to Henderson fans, but they calmed down when he had a chance and clearly wasn't as good as De Gea.

Yeah he was.

He was clearly much better for the team as a whole and it showed in the results. On average with Henderson there were less goals conceded, more clean sheets and more wins.

 

[slored1]

Yeah he was.

He was clearly much better for the team as a whole and it showed in the results. On average with Henderson there were less goals conceded, more clean sheets and more wins.

You are right. I have a so called Ewing theory with De Gea, where he is a good player on an individual level, but the team as a whole is worse with him in it. It is based on the performances last season: Henderson played like 26 games and got the same number of clean sheets, we conceded less with him in goal, Maguire and Lindelof both played better and we won some big games with Hendo in goal as well (City away, Spurs away, Milan away).

 

[romufc]

I completely agree. Similar to Henderson fans, but they calmed down when he had a chance and clearly wasn't as good as De Gea.

On the other side is Maguire, who gets blamed for everything (this isn't a defence, he's been very poor this season, but he's not half as bad as these people would have you believe)

I am on the same boat, apparently if I say why are we blaming Maguire for everything when others are not performing? I am defending him?

No, I just want everyone to be judged on the same pedestal. Everyone pointing at Maguire letting the ball go through his legs for the second goal, when Lindelof made 2 mistakes in that phase. 1. to allow Foden to beat him in, stick your head in, you win a foul for high boot.
2. Lindelof watching then putting his hands in the air when KDB runs past him.

Yet the blame is on Maguire.

 

[romufc]

How did VDB do in the 2nd half?

I see a lot of people on here loving that they got battered, but the same people talk in such vague terms about VDB's actual performance that I doubt they've watched the match. That, or they're incapable of separating the result from the performance.

He wasn't culpable in the slightest for the first 2 goals. Replace Donny with prime Zidane and those goals would play out exactly the same.

The 3rd goal wasn't on him either, but I think a top DM intercepts the ball in the build up to the goal.

I don't care for Mark Goldshite, but based on what I saw in the first half, blaming the defense for the result seems about right. And he did have a very good game not too long ago. According to you, he can only be praised for the good performance if he's also wrongfully blamed for the battering against Spurs?

Donny was bang average yesterday, just like he has been in most of his games for Everton. He's not the reason they got battered.

He got subbed of at 59 mins.

So, you watched the game and thought he played well?

The problem is prime Zidane is not playing for Everton, neither is he a CM. Alot of fans have said Donny can play 6/8 which is what Scotty plays for us.

Now, McTominay has come under massive criticism against City, lets look at the numbers:

Considering City and Spurs quality too.

McTominay had same passes as Donny, we kind of know he is a better passer than Scot.

Donny had nothing in attack and neither did Scott really however defensively, even though we got battered, McTominay's numbers were like 10 x better than Donny.

He might not be the reason they got battered but he was part of the reason in that team.

A very good game, 1/5 good games is the same ratio we get from our midfielders too.

Bottom line is, Donny is not good enough for Manutd.

 

[Oranges038]

You are right. I have a so called Ewing theory with De Gea, where he is a good player on an individual level, but the team as a whole is worse with him in it. It is based on the performances last season: Henderson played like 26 games and got the same number of clean sheets, we conceded less with him in goal, Maguire and Lindelof both played better and we won some big games with Hendo in goal as well (City away, Spurs away, Milan away).

Yeap, played 10 less games conceded less goals per game, kept the same amount of clean sheets and only won 1 less game than with DDG, 17/26 compared to 18/36. And all that was with the same defence in front on him.

 

[antohan]

Instead, we should be looking at all these players without any attachment. The only player I would stick my neck for at the moment is Sancho. In the last few months, he has been our only performer.

True. I particularly like the fact he found his feet in sync with MG issues.

Could have easily gone down the "they need/are stuck with me" route, or a "move was a mistake, this club is a disaster, I want out" route. Instead he rolled up his sleeves.

More of that please.

 

[antohan]

Yeah he was.

He was clearly much better for the team as a whole and it showed in the results. On average with Henderson there were less goals conceded, more clean sheets and more wins.

The entire team is a notch or two below last season's standards and that's got nothing to do with goalkeepers.

 

[romufc]

True. I particularly like the fact he found his feet in sync with MG issues.

Could have easily gone down the "they need/are stuck with me" route, or a "move was a mistake, this club is a disaster, I want out" route. Instead he rolled up his sleeves.

More of that please.

Exactly, I also feel he is one of our only attackers who tracks back and puts a shift in for the team.

 

[acnumber9]

So naff that he was almost signed by Real Madrid?

But he wasn’t. Instead they signed players like Jovic and Hazard who have torn it up.

 

[acnumber9]

Yeap, played 10 less games conceded less goals per game, kept the same amount of clean sheets and only won 1 less game than with DDG, 17/26 compared to 18/36. And all that was with the same defence in front on him.

He played five games against teams in the top 10. On average he played easier games so he should have had a better record.

 

[VanDeBank]

He got subbed of at 59 mins.

So you don't have an opinion on how well he played in the 2nd half? Did you even watch the game?

So, you watched the game and thought he played well?

There's no universe in which anything I said can be interpret as such.
I literally said he was bang average in the post you quoted.

I only said he wasn't culpable for the first 2 goals. You must've interpreted that as a positive and therefore concluded that I thought he played well.
In your black and white world, if I don't rate a player, I should blame him for everything and any deviation from that means that he did well? Oh Lord.

Bottom line is, Donny is not good enough for Manutd.

Pretty much what I said. Did you even bother reading the post you quoted?

I share that conclusion, but it's a tad pathetic if you just use the result of a game you haven't watched to confirm your opinion.

You have a massive agenda if you base your opinion of VDB's performance on when the manager subbed him off.

 

[sewey89]

Yeah he was.

He was clearly much better for the team as a whole and it showed in the results. On average with Henderson there were less goals conceded, more clean sheets and more wins.

De Gea was in dreadful form last season, hence him being dropped for Henderson.

Henderson didn't seize his chance and De Gea this season has been much better than Henderson last, hence him not getting a look in.

 

[VanDeBank]

De Gea was in dreadful form last season, hence him being dropped for Henderson.

Henderson didn't seize his chance and De Gea this season has been much better than Henderson last, hence him not getting a look in.

Yeah, Hendo vs Dave comparisons fall flat when you take into account Dave was dreadful last season and brilliant this season, but the team as a whole is performing much worse this season.

You'd need to be capable of separating one player's performance from the team's (and their results) to do so, and these last 2 pages are evidence some people struggle with that.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I'm not surprised. He's usually been poor and listless for us when he's played yet fans think its all down to a lack of game time. Our managers have obviously been thoroughly unimpressed by the player they've been seeing in training

 

[romufc]

So you don't have an opinion on how well he played in the 2nd half? Did you even watch the game?


There's no universe in which anything I said can be interpret as such.
I literally said he was bang average in the post you quoted.

I only said he wasn't culpable for the first 2 goals. You must've interpreted that as a positive and therefore concluded that I thought he played well.
In your black and white world, if I don't rate a player, I should blame him for everything and any deviation from that means that he did well? Oh Lord.


Pretty much what I said. Did you even bother reading the post you quoted?

I share that conclusion, but it's a tad pathetic if you just use the result of a game you haven't watched to confirm your opinion.

You have a massive agenda if you base your opinion of VDB's performance on when the manager subbed him off.

Did you bother reading my posts? Have I said Donny was the reason they got battered?

I responded to the poster who said are we ready to accept he isnt't good enough.

I dont see what the 10 mins in the second half has anything to do with what I am saying, which is Donny is not good enough to play in our midfield.

So now you decide if I watched the game or not? Where have you got that I didn't watch the game from?

 

[Abraxas]

We should already know that in terms of holding midfield. He’s a system player who plays much higher up the pitch - concerning for Everton that Lampard cited his versatility and has played him at 6.

I don't think this is well known, since fans have been beating the drum for him to play in midfield for ages. Probably because a) it is clear he cannot replace Bruno and b) there is desperation over McFred.

Are we really going to go back to suggesting he's an attacking midfielder now? Maybe in the Dutch league, I don't think he's ever enough of a threat in the PL to play there. No pace, cannot beat anyone, doesn't carry the ball. You literally have to put the ball on a plate for him to make an impact in the final third because he's got no ingenuity or physicality.

He's a safety first player with decent short passing, I think that's why he's being used deep by Frank and why people argued for that. Personally I don't know where he's best because he hardly convinces in any department.

 

[Andre Kagawa]

Are we all ready to accept that he's not good enough then?

Thought he was shite at first sight!

 

[Gandalf]

I don't think this is well known, since fans have been beating the drum for him to play in midfield for ages. Probably because a) it is clear he cannot replace Bruno and b) there is desperation over McFred.

Are we really going to go back to suggesting he's an attacking midfielder now? Maybe in the Dutch league, I don't think he's ever enough of a threat in the PL to play there. No pace, cannot beat anyone, doesn't carry the ball. You literally have to put the ball on a plate for him to make an impact in the final third because he's got no ingenuity or physicality.

He's a safety first player with decent short passing, I think that's why he's being used deep by Frank and why people argued for that. Personally I don't know where he's best because he hardly convinces in any department.

He is best as a cog in a possession based midfield unit where his propensity for short sideways passes fits the agenda of retaining possession, his one major quality beyond that is that he is good at making late runs into the box and so gets a decent share of goals that way. Significantly, he is not a strong or effective tackler and so cannot be safely deployed in a defensive role, he lacks the dynamism in his game to be a true box to box player, his lack of long range passing ability rules him out as a playmaker and despite his goal stats he is not a particularly effective number 10 as he is not a creative player. He is the very definition of a system player and unless he is playing for a team that uses that Ajax system he becomes a passenger.

 

[Oranges038]

The entire team is a notch or two below last season's standards and that's got nothing to do with goalkeepers.

He played five games against teams in the top 10. On average he played easier games so he should have had a better record.

De Gea was in dreadful form last season, hence him being dropped for Henderson.

Henderson didn't seize his chance and De Gea this season has been much better than Henderson last, hence him not getting a look in.

I don't want to derail the thread any further. So I won't be replying again here.

You can cite team form and say he only played against a certain number of top 5 teams etc. I don't really care, it just shows you lack the overall understanding of the influence a keeper has, other than making saves.

But, I'll put it this way, 3 seasons running now DDG has conceded over a goal a game. Regardless of opposition or overall team form, that's not good enough for Man Utd, It's really up to you how you want to look at it, that's one way I look at it. He's been pretty much constant in that period.

But, both Romero and Henderson were played at different times. The the defence as a unit worked better and as a result the team conceded less goals, kept more clean sheets and as a result won more games. Going from a 50% win rate with DDG to 65% - 70% win rate with Henderson last season alone.

All that says to me is that even an average keeper with better all round abilities is actually better for the team as a whole than having DDG just adding to his YouTube highlights reel every week.

 

[Abraxas]

He is best as a cog in a possession based midfield unit where his propensity for short sideways passes fits the agenda of retaining possession, his one major quality beyond that is that he is good at making late runs into the box and so gets a decent share of goals that way. Significantly, he is not a strong or effective tackler and so cannot be safely deployed in a defensive role, he lacks the dynamism in his game to be a true box to box player, his lack of long range passing ability rules him out as a playmaker and despite his goal stats he is not a particularly effective number 10 as he is not a creative player. He is the very definition of a system player and unless he is playing for a team that uses that Ajax system he becomes a passenger.

So you're essentially saying his job is to not go forward, not really defend, but simply to be the extra man in midfield that knocks it about a bit?

That is probably pretty close to my reading, also. For most sides that is so specific as to be unworkable. I think in the PL generally it is close to unworkable because of the physicality that makes it very difficult to simply retain possession without also having matched the opponent.

 

[romufc]

He is best as a cog in a possession based midfield unit where his propensity for short sideways passes fits the agenda of retaining possession, his one major quality beyond that is that he is good at making late runs into the box and so gets a decent share of goals that way. Significantly, he is not a strong or effective tackler and so cannot be safely deployed in a defensive role, he lacks the dynamism in his game to be a true box to box player, his lack of long range passing ability rules him out as a playmaker and despite his goal stats he is not a particularly effective number 10 as he is not a creative player. He is the very definition of a system player and unless he is playing for a team that uses that Ajax system he becomes a passenger.

Yep, basically saying he is not a good enough player. A player that only works in a certain system is clearly not a top player.

His attributes cannot be used by a top team, he cannot defend so cannot play 6, he isn't a creator so cannot play a 10 and he isn't one who can control temp, so he isn't an 8.

He is a very limited player that suits a team that has numbers in the midfield rather than have him as a designated role.

 

[VanDeBank]

Did you bother reading my posts? Have I said Donny was the reason they got battered?

I responded to the poster who said are we ready to accept he isnt't good enough.

I dont see what the 10 mins in the second half has anything to do with what I am saying, which is Donny is not good enough to play in our midfield.

So now you decide if I watched the game or not? Where have you got that I didn't watch the game from?

Funny coming from someone that just asked me if I thought VDB played well in response to a post in which I literally said he was bang average.

I'm assuming you didn't watch the game, because you haven't said anything relating to VDB's performance in the Spurs game in any of your 3 posts on this page.

Your response to my question how he did in the 2nd half was: "he got subbed off after 59 minutes".

I asked because I didn't watch the 2nd half and half the posts here would make you think he had a pass accuracy of 10% and scored an OG.