Van De Beek | Everton Loan Watch

VanDeBank said:
Funny coming from someone that just asked me if I thought VDB played well in response to a post in which I literally said he was bang average.

I'm assuming you didn't watch the game, because you haven't said anything relating to VDB's performance in the Spurs game in any of your 3 posts on this page.

Your response to my question how he did in the 2nd half was: "he got subbed off after 59 minutes".

I asked because I didn't watch the 2nd half and half the posts here would make you think he had a pass accuracy of 10% and scored an OG.
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Well they got dominated all game, hard to come out with any positives from a match like that.

As in what could a 10 min second half performance change? Clearly the whole midfield was dominated, he got bullied of the ball by Kulukevski for the 3rd goal and I think the 4th goal where the opponent midfielder went through Everton's midfield and Donny tried bringing him down and failed.
 
Oranges038 said:
You can cite team form and say he only played against a certain number of top 5 teams etc. I don't really care, it just shows you lack the overall understanding of the influence a keeper has, other than making saves.
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Run and hide all you want. I am perfectly aware that stopping shots is not the be all and end all. Selective samples aren’t the way to prove your point. Henderson is as average as the come. Watch him against Liverpool last season and come back and tell me how much better he made the defence.
 
romufc said:
Well they got dominated all game, hard to come out with any positives from a match like that.

As in what could a 10 min second half performance change? Clearly the whole midfield was dominated, he got bullied of the ball by Kulukevski for the 3rd goal and I think the 4th goal where the opponent midfielder went through Everton's midfield and Donny tried bringing him down and failed.
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So you watched the highlights?
 
VanDeBank said:
So you watched the highlights?
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No, I watched from 30 minutes till the end of the game.

But I am not sure how that makes a difference to how Donny played? Which is crap, thats why he was subbed so early.

An average player that can't shine in a relegation threatened club.
 
romufc said:
No, I watched from 30 minutes till the end of the game.

But I am not sure how that makes a difference to how Donny played? Which is crap, thats why he was subbed so early.

An average player that can't shine in a relegation threatened club.
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Yeah, I think that's where we disagree.

I don't think he was noticeably worse from the City game.
I think the results skew people's perception of the performance. His teammates had massive stinkers all round him, unprovoked by anything he did.

In my opinion, he was good against Leeds, crap against Southampton and bang average in the other 2-3 games. I think this is his level.
 
acnumber9 said:
Run and hide all you want. I am perfectly aware that stopping shots is not the be all and end all. Selective samples aren’t the way to prove your point. Henderson is as average as the come. Watch him against Liverpool last season and come back and tell me how much better he made the defence.
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Ok, then you'll know that having a keeper who's only real saving grace is that he makes the odd good save, is just not good enough.

I am not being selective here; you are the telling me to go back and watch 1 game, where Henderson was poor. But then claiming I am being selective in my samples. Maybe you could go back and watch Watford, Arsenal, Atalanta or even Everton and Barca from a couple of years back for examples of DDG being really shit. That could be selective viewing for you.

I have given you the overall example that he's conceded over a goal a game for 3 seasons running. Even with the same defenders playing, when he was replaced by the average Henderson and the slightly above average Romero. As if by magic, that number reduced and as a result over those games the team conceded much less goals, kept more clean sheets and won more games.

Overall when you look at the teams performance with all three over a run of games. It's been proven in 2 of the last 3 seasons that there is a positive net impact to having a more rounded keeper, even an average one over DDG. We'd have seen it this season too had Ole just had the balls to bring Henderson back in once he was fit again.
 
he’s been mixed? Everton fans like him but they are having their worst season in a long time. A decent player in a poorly performing team. I’m not going to call him crap but I really don’t see us getting much use of him in a pressing system.
 
Oranges038 said:
I have given you the overall example that he's conceded over a goal a game for 3 seasons running. Even with the same defenders playing, when he was replaced by the average Henderson and the slightly above average Romero. As if by magic, that number reduced and as a result over those games the team conceded much less goals, kept more clean sheets and won more games.
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But you aren’t acknowledging the fact that they generally play in easier games. People talked about how good a keeper Romero was because of his Europa League clean sheets. Would be number 1 at most Premier League teams they said. Where is he now? In a relegation battle in Serie A.

I used the Liverpool game as an example because it’s a game where he played against a top side and to no surprise he found it much harder. Small runs and cup games prove nothing.
 
acnumber9 said:
But you aren’t acknowledging the fact that they generally play in easier games. People talked about how good a keeper Romero was because of his Europa League clean sheets. Would be number 1 at most Premier League teams they said. Where is he now? In a relegation battle in Serie A.

I used the Liverpool game as an example because it’s a game where he played against a top side and to no surprise he found it much harder. Small runs and cup games prove nothing.
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Henderson didn't just play easier games or have a small cup run last year. He played 26 overall in all comps and did better than DDG in every aspect, won 17, kept 12 clean sheets and conceded less than a goal a game. DDG played 36 kept 12 clean sheets and won only 17 but conceded over a goal a game. He's not even performing much better this season. The whole team did better without him last year for a long run, but yet you choose one game where Henderson was poor to keep bashing him on.

The proof is there. I won't be replying again.
 
I've actually started to dislike the poor bastard.

It's completely unfair, it has nothing to do with anything he's done or not done himself.

Need to stop reading people's comments on him.
 
Oranges038 said:
Henderson didn't just play easier games or have a small cup run last year.
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He did though. He played 5 games against the other teams in the top 10. That means De Gea played the other 13. It’s not an opinion, that’s a fact.
 
acnumber9 said:
But you aren’t acknowledging the fact that they generally play in easier games. People talked about how good a keeper Romero was because of his Europa League clean sheets. Would be number 1 at most Premier League teams they said. Where is he now? In a relegation battle in Serie A.

I used the Liverpool game as an example because it’s a game where he played against a top side and to no surprise he found it much harder. Small runs and cup games prove nothing.
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Take it easy on Romero... He's only given up seven goals in the last two matches...
 
I feel like there are a lot of people jumping through hoops to try and justify DvB as a very good player. He is the very definition of an average player. Average passing, shooting, defending, attacking, ball control, dribbling, physicallity.

There is nothing about him that stands out, people point to his movement and short passing, even that is blatently average. He is giving the very same performances that he was giving at united. I know people wanted him to be this highly technical dutch player brought up in the ajax way for us in the vein of classic dutch players, but the reality is just like a lot of current dutch players hes just your average footballer who had a decent patch of form at Ajax. He'll end up at a midtable team or back in europe for a Europa level/weak champions league team.
 
Bobski said:
He is an average PL midfielder with no outstanding attributes. Now you can argue that those could have made him useful to Utd given the competition but if the argument he is some special player who was being mis-used that would be delusional.
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that's the issue
Oranges038 said:
I always thought he should have been given more time by Ole. But it looks like he isn't cut out for the PL.

He did look good for Ajax, but then again so do Tadic and Haller and neither of them did much in England.
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there were players who shone for them who we wouldn't touch. Ziyech is another one who outshone him in the CL campaign. I look forward to the day we treat him like Memphis and just move on. Our fans love getting attached to nothing players. Always looking for the next saviour from the bench
 
Oranges038 said:
I don't want to derail the thread any further. So I won't be replying again here.

You can cite team form and say he only played against a certain number of top 5 teams etc. I don't really care, it just shows you lack the overall understanding of the influence a keeper has, other than making saves.

But, I'll put it this way, 3 seasons running now DDG has conceded over a goal a game. Regardless of opposition or overall team form, that's not good enough for Man Utd, It's really up to you how you want to look at it, that's one way I look at it. He's been pretty much constant in that period.

But, both Romero and Henderson were played at different times. The the defence as a unit worked better and as a result the team conceded less goals, kept more clean sheets and as a result won more games. Going from a 50% win rate with DDG to 65% - 70% win rate with Henderson last season alone.

All that says to me is that even an average keeper with better all round abilities is actually better for the team as a whole than having DDG just adding to his YouTube highlights reel every week.
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Sorry for not understanding the importance of goalkeepers like you do.

I just pointed out last season we had a more committed/settled/non-disgruntled squad, tactics better suited to the team's strengths (albeit, not for dominating jackshit), a more effective frontline (scoring more and thus enabling us to chill and counter at will) and players in better form across the pitch, from Shawberto Carlos, through Pogba to the penalty incarnation of Own Goal.

It's not a defence of OGS, or De Gea, or an attack on Rangnick, or Henderson. It's just what was right there for all to see and a better explanation for results and clean sheets than swapping keepers, tactically relevant as they may be.
 
He should have went to Palace who are a far more settled team at the moment.
He went from one club in turmoil to another in even bigger trouble.
He just chose the bigger name instead of looking at the big picture.
 
antohan said:
Sorry for not understanding the importance of goalkeepers like you do.

I just pointed out last season we had a more committed/settled/non-disgruntled squad, tactics better suited to the team's strengths (albeit, not for dominating jackshit), a more effective frontline (scoring more and thus enabling us to chill and counter at will) and players in better form across the pitch, from Shawberto Carlos, through Pogba to the penalty incarnation of Own Goal.

It's not a defence of OGS, or De Gea, or an attack on Rangnick, or Henderson. It's just what was right there for all to see and a better explanation for results and clean sheets than swapping keepers, tactically relevant as they may be.
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Don't worry (I know you're not :) )

He's also posted in the "if you could change one position" thread that he'd choose the goalie as De Gea is almost single handedly ruining us and if we change him, we're golden :rolleyes:. Not a De Gea fan?

No goalie could look great behind our defence - the mobility, positioning and decision making of players like Maguire, Shaw and AWB? Yikes.

De Gea is well down my ranking of players I want to move on (even with his faults). DvdB can do one though.
 
Stacks said:
there were players who shone for them who we wouldn't touch. Ziyech is another one who outshone him in the CL campaign. I look forward to the day we treat him like Memphis and just move on. Our fans love getting attached to nothing players. Always looking for the next saviour from the bench
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They wouldn’t be if the first 11 were playing well and winning games though to be fair
 
Look at the managers he’s played under in the EPL- Lampard and Ole. Not exactly top draw. Is it any surprise he looked world class under Ten Hag. Sometimes a system suits a player and VDB has had terrible luck so far having to play under those two hacks.
 
Giggsy13 said:
Look at the managers he’s played under in the EPL- Lampard and Ole. Not exactly top draw. Is it any surprise he looked world class under Ten Hag. Sometimes a system suits a player and VDB has had terrible luck so far having to play under those two hacks.
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He didn't look world class under Ten Hag. He had a handful of good CL games alongside many of his teammates (who were also not world class, surprisingly) and played well in the Dutch league.
 
Abraxas said:
He didn't look world class under Ten Hag. He had a handful of good CL games alongside many of his teammates (who were also not world class, surprisingly) and played well in the Dutch league.
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I think the term "world class" is over used, but your a little harsh.

Van Der Beek was the stand out midfielder in that midfield and highly regarded as one of the best midfielders in Europe. Yes the dutch league is not a high standard as the premiership, but still the fact is Van Der Beek was looking like an elite level player under Ten Hag at Ajax.

To say he wasn't is simply not true.

What's happened to him since can be put down to multiple factors:
Change of environment
Change of playing style
Limited chances/run of games
You could go on.....

He's took a loan move to get game time, perhaps the wrong club, perhaps not but he will certainly play more there than he did here.

One thing you'll never convince me of is that Donny had a fair crack at UTD thus far....

He's clearly streets ahead of both Fred and McTominey with and without the ball. He's a technically better footballer than anything we have in central midfield and i'm certain of that.

Fred and McTominey are proven average yet play consistently in the X11. Donny hasn;t had that chance yet our fans have written him off as some bum who can't kick a ball. I'm so frustrated watching piss poor performances from McTominey without even giving other players a chance, such as Donny or even Hannibal. I'd even recall Garner and give him a go at this point, because the alternative is McTom and Fred - both proven average dross
 
Facts:
  • Donny looked fantastic under Ten Hag
  • Donny was not given a fair crack under Ole

Opinions:
  • Donny picked the wrong club, which has been a swirling turd in the toilet bowl most of the season, to go out on loan to
  • Donny is a superior midfielder -- that is, with the ball at his feet -- than either Fred or McTominay
  • Donny would be best advised to leave United this summer, unless Ten Hag is appointed manager
 
Fact - VDB looked quite good in the Dutch league
Fact - VDB has looked terrible in the Premier League.
 
I mean the things posters are labelling as facts are definitely opinions :lol:
 
lex talionis said:
Facts:
  • Donny looked fantastic under Ten Hag
  • Donny was not given a fair crack under Ole

Opinions:
  • Donny picked the wrong club, which has been a swirling turd in the toilet bowl most of the season, to go out on loan to
  • Donny is a superior midfielder -- that is, with the ball at his feet -- than either Fred or McTominay
  • Donny would be best advised to leave United this summer, unless Ten Hag is appointed manager
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100% this. Too many judgments too quickly for a player who has not been given a fair chance and then gets absolutely swarmed with negative comments over one bad game.
 
Craig Ward said:
He's clearly streets ahead of both Fred and McTominey with and without the ball. He's a technically better footballer than anything we have in central midfield and i'm certain of that.
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He is clearly none of these things. I believe Fred despite being an average player is still streets ahead of Donny and the stats have been posted several times that support this, higher pass completion percentage, more progressive passes attempted, duels won, interceptions etc.

If you think he is a better player technically than Matic then I suggest you get your eyes checked pronto and I am fairly sure a certain Mr. Pogba could claim to be technically better than Donny and 99.99% of sane football fans would agree.
 
There is a good article about why players from Ajax rarely make it in the PL. They have been drummed from childhood to play in a certain way. Arsenal under Arsene and now City under Pep played that style. DVB was never going to make it at United under Ole. Now whey he never got a chance under RR is certainly puzzling or had he made up his mind to move away no matter what?
I have seen a lot of Ajax and he is not a world class player at all. But he is certainly a much better football player than either Fred or McTominay.
 
Ali Dia said:
he’s been mixed? Everton fans like him but they are having their worst season in a long time. A decent player in a poorly performing team. I’m not going to call him crap but I really don’t see us getting much use of him in a pressing system.
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He is unlucky. Not trusted to play at united and then loaned out to a team that is struggling. He had the chance to go to Palace which is a more stable team, but he chose to go to Everton
 
Craig Ward said:
I think the term "world class" is over used, but your a little harsh.

Van Der Beek was the stand out midfielder in that midfield and highly regarded as one of the best midfielders in Europe. Yes the dutch league is not a high standard as the premiership, but still the fact is Van Der Beek was looking like an elite level player under Ten Hag at Ajax.

To say he wasn't is simply not true.

What's happened to him since can be put down to multiple factors:
Change of environment
Change of playing style
Limited chances/run of games
You could go on.....

He's took a loan move to get game time, perhaps the wrong club, perhaps not but he will certainly play more there than he did here.

One thing you'll never convince me of is that Donny had a fair crack at UTD thus far....

He's clearly streets ahead of both Fred and McTominey with and without the ball. He's a technically better footballer than anything we have in central midfield and i'm certain of that.

Fred and McTominey are proven average yet play consistently in the X11. Donny hasn;t had that chance yet our fans have written him off as some bum who can't kick a ball. I'm so frustrated watching piss poor performances from McTominey without even giving other players a chance, such as Donny or even Hannibal. I'd even recall Garner and give him a go at this point, because the alternative is McTom and Fred - both proven average dross
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I don't think he was considered to be one of the best midfielders in Europe. I think he was considered to be having a stand out season, hence why ourselves and supposedly Real were interested. There is definitely a difference between those two ideas. That's what happens when people break out on a bigger stage than Dutch football, they garner interest.

The question is then what do they do beyond that? That's what defines whether they're a flash in the pan, or completely aligned with one particular system as the case may be. Being world class or one of the best midfielders in Europe should imply consistently being at a level.

You must be quite easily impressed in my opinion if you take from that season that he's one of the best around. It's not for me to convince you whether he's had a fair crack or not, I would simply refer you to his performances to date for United and Everton and say it is for the player to show he belongs at this level. Let's hope he improves as more evidence comes in, if we have to sell him back to Holland for 15 million it does nobody any good.
 
He’s just not very good, is he? The uproar surrounding him has always been baseless. At least Kagawa and Mkhitaryan scored a hat trick and bicycle kick between them.
 
people here are ridiculous, last match he played like any Everton player, absolutely shit. But against City he managed to subdue KDB, something our midfield couldn't do. People need to realize that it's near impossible to play well when the whole team is failing. The matches Everton where did ok, he was the best or one of the best players for them.
Judging on a match where the whole team got destroyed isn't fair.
 
Craig Ward said:
Van Der Beek was the stand out midfielder in that midfield and highly regarded as one of the best midfielders in Europe
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No he wasn't. He literally played in the same midfield as De Jong. VDB wasn't a stand out midfielder. Stand out goal scorer, maybe. Just like Haller is now.

Only people who fall for the hype regarded him as "one of the best midfielders in Europe".
We only payed 35 million, so not even United believed he was in that bracket.

Truth is, that Ajax team had 5-6 better players in their starting line up and VDB wasn't exceptional at Ajax either.

Terranova said:
The matches Everton where did ok, he was the best or one of the best players for them.
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No he wasn't. That other blonde that plays in front of him is consistently outshining him.
He had one really good game and that's it.
 
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