Van De Beek | Everton Loan Watch

[Borys]

Van de Beek can't be compared to Fred in any way. Fred is a regular player while van de Beek played last minutes of every second game. Now Donny is playing for a rather poor side while Fred plays for top 4-6 team, and bare in mind our midfielders are asked to do very limited job on the ball as most of the game goes through the wings or directly from defensive line to forwards.
That said, I don't see passing as a strength for either of them. What makes this discussion rather irrelevant.

 

[Adnan]

Van de Beek can't be compared to Fred in any way. Fred is a regular player while van de Beek played last minutes of every second game. Now Donny is playing for a rather poor side while Fred plays for top 4-6 team, and bare in mind our midfielders are asked to do very limited job on the ball as most of the game goes through the wings or directly from defensive line to forwards.
That said, I don't see passing as a strength for either of them. What makes this discussion rather irrelevant.

Good post, completely agree.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Well, if Ten Hag comes here then VDB is likely to stay next season and probably going to replace Pogba’s spot. VDB was his regular player after all.

 

[Polar]

Okay, I can accept what you said and just disagree. I don't think DVB will ever be a great midfielder, I just think he has more to offer than McFred. I'm really tired of accepting the mediocrity of our midfielders. I predict by the end of the season DVB will have shown with Everton he is better than McFred. We'll see.

Agree. I don’t think Fred is much better, but I don’t see a reason to replace one mediocre with another. It wouldn’t make much difference. Neither of them have what it takes to bring us in the title race next season.

 

[Polar]

You cant be serious. With our current team and coach we would compete for top 6.

You must be joking

 

[FrankDrebin]

Well, if Ten Hag comes here then VDB is likely to stay next season and probably going to replace Pogba’s spot. VDB was his regular player after all.

I wouldn't be so sure but Hag will give him a proper chance, purely based on his experience working with Beek at Ajax.
Wouldn't surprise me if Beek continues to underwhelm, even under Hag though.

 

[United in sin]

It will be interesting to see where he fits in if ETH gets the job. I was one of his biggest advocates for game time and I still think he was treated unfairly considering McTominay seems to be favored despite not being united quality but I haven't really been impressed by VDBs displays at Everton.

Not to say he's been poor, he just hasn't shown me something we are missing. His best display for united in my opinion was his subbed on appearance against Watford in Solskjaer's last game

 

[Thoms]

You must be joking

Doubt you watch any of our games. No, I’m not joking.

 

[FrankDrebin]

A game where we were losing and Watford took the hand-break off.
His best display, and one which is regarded as such, was against Leipzig at home in the CL and that was hardly a outstanding performance, it was just a assured technically tidy one.

 

[MrBest]

How is he "clearly" a "great" player? I think both parts of that statement are within the realms of reasonable debate which suggests its not all that clear.

It begs the question of what your standard for greatness is, and if it was that clear most people would find it evident which is not the case.

I for one do not see greatness, I would say he's an okay player and he's put in a collection of okay performances for Everton. Hopefully there is better to come, as like you allude to he needs more football to find some proper sharpness. Then a reasoned conclusion can come but for now I think it's more accurate to keep an open mind while the evidence comes in than decide he's great based on little.

Half your post is just nonesense and attacks. Did you ever watch Donny play prior to United? Have you ever been out of football so long that you lost your rhythm but after a while of consistency, you found your form. Do you know the kind of player Donny is or could be? Don't start making assumptions on what I define as great, you know nothing about me. I promise you that most people on here have only seen Donny play on YouTube or the handful of minutes he has played in 20 months. Your opening remark really should of been a question of why i rate him.

 

[FrankDrebin]

I love VDB and would love to see him to well. Players like that deserve to enjoy a lot of success. But you know what, we need to be realistic, as industrious as he can be he is not at the level of midfielder we need. It's hard to say that given the soft spot I have for him. But no team is winning a league title with VDB as a 6 or 8, not right now. He needs more experience. Can he be that player that helps a team to league title? Maybe, when he is at his peak at 28 or so. But Man Utd cannot hang their hopes on a maybe. We need to move on and look for a player than ca dominate midfield.

See, I really don't get this admiration for him nor do I see any attribute in him that makes him particularly special player.
But I do agree that United, if they have any ambition, can't wait for Beek to start get going at the club.

If Hag does come in, United fans expect a title challenge irrespective of the current disaster of this campaign and I don't think at this time Beek is capable of playing a strong role in that.

 

[MrBest]

He's clearly a great player? A game against Real Madrid a few years ago, how are you coming to this conclusion? I like the kid, really hope he does well at Everton, but he's two managers deep at Manchester United, a club where Matic regularly gets a game, and can't force his way into the starting eleven. What are you seeing that the professional teams of coaches haven't seen in him?

Like I said, judge him after a proper run of games. Two managers down at United? That was Ole and RR, the first who burnt out his squad in 24 months and the second who is an interim whos only role is to get results and has not managed much in the past and for a while. Come back an quote me at the end of the season if Donny has not progressed.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

I wouldn't be so sure but Hag will give him a proper chance, purely based on his experience working with Beek at Ajax.
Wouldn't surprise me if Beek continues to underwhelm, even under Hag though.

Whether he will perform or no that’s another thing but what I meant is that we might not even sign Pogba’s replacement this summer if Ten Hag comes here.

 

[honirelandboy]

I'd rate Scott as a better centre midfielder who wouldn't start for the top 15 clubs in the premier league.

VDB is more Bruno's role but there's no way he's taking that position off him for a run of games.

Only way I see it is if Bruno takes on Firminho's role and VDB takes his position or vice versa.

Ronaldo needs to go to MLS anyway.

 

[Abraxas]

Half your post is just nonesense and attacks. Did you ever watch Donny play prior to United? Have you ever been out of football so long that you lost your rhythm but after a while of consistency, you found your form. Do you know the kind of player Donny is or could be? Don't start making assumptions on what I define as great, you know nothing about me. I promise you that most people on here have only seen Donny play on YouTube or the handful of minutes he has played in 20 months. Your opening remark really should of been a question of why i rate him.

An attack? How sensitive are you exactly. You didn't respond to any of the points. Probably because the position is hard to defend so you'd rather go for faux outrage and start going off on tangents.

That's why I said, it begs the question what your standard of greatness is. You either have difficulties with comprehension or willfully ignored that point.

Enlighten us about how he is clearly great in that case. What is great, which qualities and relative to who else in world football? Great doesn't mean okay or good or one among many, it means great, so justify that opinion. If you say somebody is great then on a forum it is within the realms of possibility that you might be asked to justify a statement. So go ahead. Which qualities fall within that bracket and where do you see him within the footballing landscape?

Also, using the point that he's not had as much football as we'd all like to make a full judgement isn't a defence of your point. It's a fact, yes. But it's not one that makes him more likely to be great.

 

[Adnan]

There's several players in the current first 11 who have been put on a pedestal for the last few years and we've consistently played a low/mid block game. A lot of the players in the team are underwhelming.

Our keeper is rooted to his line

Our LB seems to run out of steam at the 60 minute mark.

Our RB is technically not good enough to provide a big enough threat in offensive transitions.

Our CBs start to back pedal after the opposition evade the first line of pressure, hence we can't maintain a compact high block and in-turn the press is ineffective.

Our midfielders McFred wouldn't look out of place at a relegation threatened team and are in the team for their energy rather than what they provide on the ball.

Then we have forwards, who are either easily bypassed or are are extremely wasteful in possession, which compounds our problems in the build up phase.

Rangnick is trying to address that and the acquisition of Varane is a positive one in that regard. And I said last year that I wanted Sancho for the left wing forward role to challenge Rashford, and that's come to fruition. We're gonna sign a striker and a midfielder according to reports but we also need to bring someone in who will threaten Bruno's position in the first 11. And someone like Nkunku could possibly be that player. As well as being technically very good, Nkunku is also superior physically to Bruno and is a far more explosive player.

There's also a kid at Leverkusen who I'd take over Bruno. And that kid is a few months younger than Hannibal, Mr Drebin.. Enough of the stat padding and bring in players who will help us play a imposing game and hence improve our build up/approach play to bring it closer to City and Liverpool.

 

[FrankDrebin]

Yeah, lets replace our most productive attacker with a kid from Germany and a kid from the academy. Super, great.

 

[Adnan]

Yeah, lets replace our most productive attacker with a kid from Germany and a kid from the academy. Super, great.

I look forward to seeing Liverpool and City winning the trophies in that case, whilst we celebrate Bruno's productivity, whilst losing the ball a million times.

 

[FrankDrebin]

I look forward to seeing Liverpool and City winning the trophies in that case, whilst we celebrate Bruno's productivity, whilst losing the ball a million times.

So you don't think Bruno can still improve his game under a new manager and one as talented as Hag seems to be, who sounds tactically adaptable ?

 

[Adnan]

So you don't think Bruno can still improve his game under a new manager and one as talented as Hag seems to be ?

That's a good question and I would like to think his game would improve under ten Hag or even another head coach. But from what Bruno has said, he has always played the same way. I think what someone like ten Hag could try is playing Bruno as a false #9. Bruno has a big goal threat, so that false #9 role with 3 midfielders behind him would be the way to go imo.

I'm actually hoping Rangnick tries the same thing soon, with Mctominay, Hannibal and Pogba in a 3 man midfield behind him. Against a strong team Fred comes in for Hannibal. Does anyone agree?

 

[Tyrion]

You must be joking

They have six wins from six in the CL, beating Dortmund who are 2nd in Germany, Sporting who are 2nd in Portugal and Besiktas who aren't good tbh.

Saying they'd compete for top 6 is completely reasonable. Us and Arsenal are doing it ffs.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

That's a good question and I would like to think his game would improve under ten Hag or even another head coach. But from what Bruno has said, he has always played the same way. I think what someone like ten Hag could try is playing Bruno as a false #9. Bruno has a big goal threat, so that false #9 role with 3 midfielders behind him would be the way to go imo.

I'm actually hoping Rangnick tries the same thing soon, with Mctominay, Hannibal and Pogba in a 3 man midfield behind him. Against a strong team Fred comes in for Hannibal. Does anyone agree?

I don't think Bruno has the hold up play to play a false 9.

 

[Tyrion]

I don't think Bruno has the hold up play to play a false 9.

Agreed. He's bad at retaining possession, either because he lacks the patience or because he's been told to be hyper-aggressive.

 

[Adnan]

I don't think Bruno has the hold up play to play a false 9.

Hold up play isn't really a necessity for a false #9. Dropping deeper and leaving a big hole at the CF position can cause much confusion for CBs who then have to make a decision to either step into the space or stay where they're. Which can then open up possibilities in behind the CBs for the wide forwards or overload possibilities in the space not taken up by the CBs.

 

[AltiUn]

That’s correct, but as Fernandes occupies the position that Van De Beek is most useful in, he will never get priority in that spot. As a result, if he ever wants to make it in this side, he needs to be compared to and be competing with Fred. A comparison which he loses.

I think if we do appoint Ten Hag it’ll present an interesting dilemma, would he drop one of the most productive players in the league (and even Europe) for a link up player who would enhance his system? It’ll be a very interesting predicament if Ten Hag did happen to take over, I suspect it’ll be another topic United fans debate endlessly over.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I think if we do appoint Ten Hag it’ll present an interesting dilemma, would he drop one of the most productive players in the league (and even Europe) for a link up player who would enhance his system? It’ll be a very interesting predicament if Ten Hag did happen to take over, I suspect it’ll be another topic United fans debate endlessly over.

VDB would have to improve significantly for that. Just because VDB played for Ten Hag in the Dutch league doesn't mean he will pick him here (should he come). The league is stronger and you need high quality players to compete with City

 

[wise_old_man]

I think if we do appoint Ten Hag it’ll present an interesting dilemma, would he drop one of the most productive players in the league (and even Europe) for a link up player who would enhance his system? It’ll be a very interesting predicament if Ten Hag did happen to take over, I suspect it’ll be another topic United fans debate endlessly over.

I think it depends on their forms at that moment too.

I remember people often labelling Van Persie as a favored player if Van Gaal came to United. Guess how that turned out? Van Gaal was the one who pushed Van Persie out.

 

[kouroux]

I love VDB and would love to see him to well. Players like that deserve to enjoy a lot of success. But you know what, we need to be realistic, as industrious as he can be he is not at the level of midfielder we need. It's hard to say that given the soft spot I have for him. But no team is winning a league title with VDB as a 6 or 8, not right now. He needs more experience. Can he be that player that helps a team to league title? Maybe, when he is at his peak at 28 or so. But Man Utd cannot hang their hopes on a maybe. We need to move on and look for a player than ca dominate midfield.

Since we won't be close to winning the league for the foreseeable future, having him in the squad and actually using him wouldn't be a bad thing.

This dream of signing a midfielder who will dominate games can still happen with VDB being another type of player for us.

Just like with Pogba to a less degre, the money spent on him has created an expectation of the player that was just too far from the reality

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Guardiola describes it best in the clip below about the obsession some have with stats, which doesn't correlate to the reality of creating a dynamic on the pitch.

Who is he talking about here? It sounds like he's talking about headline stats like goals & assists, a defence of Grealish perhaps? With more advanced metrics the contribution of players can be quantified beyond those headline stats. Not everything of course but as time goes on all on it will be possible to quantify all on pitch contributions. What you're talking about with Donny can be captured even with the stats we have available to everyone today.

https://fbref.com/en/players/b0b4fd3e/scout/11160/Jack-Grealish-Scouting-Report

As you can see with Grealish he's in the top percentile for SCA

The two offensive actions directly leading to a shot, such as passes, dribbles and drawing fouls. Note: A single player can receive credit for multiple actions and the shot-taker can also receive credit

If Donny was being an effective 'link man' he would register highly on this metric.

https://fbref.com/en/players/50dc94ce/scout/10728/Donny-van-de-Beek-Scouting-Report

As we can see in his (limited) data set for this season he does score in the lower bracket of the high range for these stats. He's also in the 98th percentile for progressive passes received which also quantifies his contribution as a link man in attacking areas.

I think the question with Donny is that he's very much a 'system baby' and is he really good enough to have a system engineered around him at the top end of the Premier League?

 

[Polar]

VDB would have to improve significantly for that. Just because VDB played for Ten Hag in the Dutch league doesn't mean he will pick him here (should he come). The league is stronger and you need high quality players to compete with City

You have to remember most of his supporters think Ajax would’ve been one of the top clubs in PL

 

[Scarecrow]

You must be joking

Don’t be daft. Ajax are a regular CL knockout-round team. They almost reached the final not too long ago. I would not even put us as favorites if we drew them in the next round.

 

[DWelbz19]

You have to remember most of his supporters think Ajax would’ve been one of the top clubs in PL

I mean, yeah…? This current Ajax team with Ten Hag in charge? They’d probably be anywhere from 3rd to 7th.

 

[Adnan]

Who is he talking about here? It sounds like he's talking about headline stats like goals & assists, a defence of Grealish perhaps? With more advanced metrics the contribution of players can be quantified beyond those headline stats. Not everything of course but as time goes on all on it will be possible to quantify all on pitch contributions. What you're talking about with Donny can be captured even with the stats we have available to everyone today.

https://fbref.com/en/players/b0b4fd3e/scout/11160/Jack-Grealish-Scouting-Report

As you can see with Grealish he's in the top percentile for SCA

The two offensive actions directly leading to a shot, such as passes, dribbles and drawing fouls. Note: A single player can receive credit for multiple actions and the shot-taker can also receive credit

If Donny was being an effective 'link man' he would register highly on this metric.

https://fbref.com/en/players/50dc94ce/scout/10728/Donny-van-de-Beek-Scouting-Report

As we can see in his (limited) data set for this season he does score in the lower bracket of the high range for these stats. He's also in the 98th percentile for progressive passes received which also quantifies his contribution as a link man in attacking areas.

I think the question with Donny is that he's very much a 'system baby' and is he really good enough to have a system engineered around him at the top end of the Premier League?

Stats only tell a small part of the equation mate. The stats won't tell you that at Ajax the aim was to setup in a imposing compact high block with a view to exerting zonal positional control in both offensive and defensive transitions. And VdB at Ajax was a link player who dropped between the lines and was utilised as such by ten Hag, who has spoken about this. It's not about him being a systems player, but rather Solskjaer not having clue on how to utilise him and the low/mid-block reactive football that we've been playing for over a decade was never conducive for a player like VdB. I never said concessions had to be made for him or he was a great player. We don't have any player in the team who I want us to make concessions for.

I didn't need stats to tell me that both Maguire and AWB were unsuited to the high press several years ago. And it's also easy to see why VdB wasn't utilised effectively in a approach that looked to react rather than impose.

So it's not a surprise to me that limited players like Fred/McTominay would be more effective in a reactive approach, in a collective defensive approach with a view to playing counter attacking football. The same applies to several other players on the team. You wouldn't call them systems babies..

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Stats only tell a small part of the equation mate. The stats won't tell you that at Ajax the aim was to setup in a imposing compact high block with a view to exerting zonal positional control in both offensive and defensive transitions. And VdB at Ajax was a link player who dropped between the lines and was utilised as such by ten Hag, who has spoken about this. It's not about him being a systems player, but rather Solskjaer not having clue on how to utilise him and the low/mid-block reactive football that we've been playing for over a decade was never conducive for a player like VdB. I never said concessions had to be made for him or he was a great player. We don't have any player in the team who I want us to make concessions for.

I didn't need stats to tell me that both Maguire and AWB were unsuited to the high press several years ago. And it's also easy to see why VdB wasn't utilised effectively in a approach that looked to react rather than impose.

So it's not a surprise to me that limited players like Fred/McTominay would be more effective in a reactive approach, in a collective defensive approach with a view to playing counter attacking football. The same applies to several other players on the team. You wouldn't call them systems babies..

I disagree. You claim that what Donny offers on the pitch in terms of build up can’t be quantified by stats. It can and it is. I gave specific examples of how what you talk about can be quantified in attacking positions the tweet below details how it can be quantified in a general sense, although statsbomb only divulge these stats to clubs, scouts and gamblers that pay for the service.



Using all the stats that I have detailed it would be easy to deduce the qualities that you mention.

Thats not to say that you don’t need to watch a player but I think that stats are increasingly able to quantify the what a player offers. I think it’s gone well beyond being a small part of the picture.

 

[Adnan]

I disagree. You claim that what Donny offers on the pitch in terms of build up can’t be quantified by stats. It can and it is. I gave specific examples of how what you talk about can be quantified in attacking positions the tweet below details how it can be quantified in a general sense, although statsbomb only divulge these stats to clubs, scouts and gamblers that pay for the service.



Using all the stats that I have detailed it would be easy to deduce the qualities that you mention.

Thats not to say that you don’t need to watch a player but I think that stats are increasingly able to quantify the what a player offers. I think it’s gone well beyond being a small part of the picture.

Where did I say 'what Donny offers on the pitch can't be quantified by stats' It was actually Guardiola who said that a player doesn't need to show up on stats for him to improve the collective. I don't have a problem with that and it makes absolute sense.

What I actually said (not verbatim) was that there's a difference between evaluating players in different styles of play. United in 10 plus years have now have been setup mostly in a compact low/mid block. You don't sign a player who is being utilised in a imposing front foot approach with high pressing capabilities and then bring him into a setup, which is setup to react to the opponent in a collective defensive approach. It was easy for me to predict that Maguire and AWB were the wrong signings when Solskjaer made the claim about wanting to press high 'like Jurgen' I didn't need stats for this because I'd seen Leicester and England play.

I've also posted videos and articles from the head of data science at Ajax on this forum. And that data scientist quite clearly stated that data is only useful if one understands how to interpret that data. Hence the 'football experts' at Ajax guide the data analysis team on what to focus on and the different setups involved in the game. Otherwise one can end up interpreting things things with their world view on how the game is played.

 

[Abraxas]

The amusing thing is Pep probably has a handful of people sat at computers who are handsomely compensated and who's sole purpose at the club is to gather, analyse and interpret statistics.

The trick is in the last couple, of course. Analysis and interpretation. That's probably the thrust of his point which is missed in the use of statistics in the media and by fans. Frankly because it is fairly complex and not all that interesting to many, they simply want a conclusion in broad strokes.

However, even for those of us that are not going to take that to the nth degree it is still possible to disprove blatant rubbish that is stated as fact about players and their relative merit through statistics. For example it's pretty clear that there is this notion of Fred constantly giving the ball away and that VDB would help retain possession and then you see that Fred is more pivotal to a team in possession and gives it away less so how do you maintain the view? I suppose then we would have to rely on some mystical element not captured without an interpretation.

The ultimate irony being Pep was seemingly interested in Fred, or at least fooled us into thinking so if some are to be believed. If the former is to be believed he probably had some idea that Fred was a decent footballer as I do not think Pep sees bad ones as being necessary for his football.

 

[gerdm07]

The amusing thing is Pep probably has a handful of people sat at computers who are handsomely compensated and who's sole purpose at the club is to gather, analyse and interpret statistics.

The trick is in the last couple, of course. Analysis and interpretation. That's probably the thrust of his point which is missed in the use of statistics in the media and by fans. Frankly because it is fairly complex and not all that interesting to many, they simply want a conclusion in broad strokes.

However, even for those of us that are not going to take that to the nth degree it is still possible to disprove blatant rubbish that is stated as fact about players and their relative merit through statistics. For example it's pretty clear that there is this notion of Fred constantly giving the ball away and that VDB would help retain possession and then you see that Fred is more pivotal to a team in possession and gives it away less so how do you maintain the view? I suppose then we would have to rely on some mystical element not captured without an interpretation.

The ultimate irony being Pep was seemingly interested in Fred, or at least fooled us into thinking so if some are to be believed. If the former is to be believed he probably had some idea that Fred was a decent footballer as I do not think Pep sees bad ones as being necessary for his football.

Let's say Pep did buy Fred instead of us. And let's say Pep was only able to get a little more out of Fred than we have. Does anyone think for one minute Fred would still be with MC? Not a chance as Pep is pretty ruthless when players don't meet his expectations. That, in a nut shell, is why they are challenging for titles and we are hoping for 4th.

Fred does give the ball away too many times and no stats are going to convince me otherwise. Good holding midfielders make about 2 mistakes a match, Fred probably averages around 5 or 6 and it's why our defenders don't use the midfield as much as they should. If Fred starts tomorrow I'll keep track of all of Fred's mistakes for you and list them. Meanwhile, I'll bet Rodrigo makes very few.

 

[-Supreme-]

That's a good question and I would like to think his game would improve under ten Hag or even another head coach. But from what Bruno has said, he has always played the same way. I think what someone like ten Hag could try is playing Bruno as a false #9. Bruno has a big goal threat, so that false #9 role with 3 midfielders behind him would be the way to go imo.

I'm actually hoping Rangnick tries the same thing soon, with Mctominay, Hannibal and Pogba in a 3 man midfield behind him. Against a strong team Fred comes in for Hannibal. Does anyone agree?

Agreed. Exactly what I said a couple of weeks ago.

I’d like to see another youth player to be brought in to the first team prior to this summer, particularly with the emergence of Elanga since Ralf took charge when he has shown promising signs that he is ready to replace one of our first team squad players.

I’d consider this as long term gain even if we dont get top 4 this season with Ralf having had adequate time to assess the squad and provide his input for our next head coach/ recruitment department when it comes to incomings, outgoings and youth development pipelines / progression i.e. whether to send players like Hannibal out on loan next season, we could potentially save ourselves 40-50m from buying a ball playing CM if we give Hannibal chances to see how he settles from now on until the end of season IMO.

 

[Polar]

Don’t be daft. Ajax are a regular CL knockout-round team. They almost reached the final not too long ago. I would not even put us as favorites if we drew them in the next round.

And not to forget PL teams have ruled in CL last couple of years. Besides.. PL is a very different “thing” compared to CL: thigh schedule, most competitive league in the world, top teams have to give 100 % week in/out in order to win, also against bottom team.

I don’t think Ajax squad is neither good, “broad” or physical enough to be very competitive in PL.

The DVB case illustrate what I say pretty well. He was one of the stars on Ajax, but

• wasn’t good enough to be a regular on United (among top 6 in PL).
• is an average Everton-player, which is a relegation team (or mid table team at best) in PL.

Some people have to stop dreaming and be more realistic or down to earth.

 

[Abraxas]

Let's say Pep did buy Fred instead of us. And let's say Pep was only able to get a little more out of Fred than we have. Does anyone think for one minute Fred would still be with MC? Not a chance as Pep is pretty ruthless when players don't meet his expectations. That, in a nut shell, is why they are challenging for titles and we are hoping for 4th.

Fred does give the ball away too many times and no stats are going to convince me otherwise. Good holding midfielders make about 2 mistakes a match, Fred probably averages around 5 or 6 and it's why our defenders don't use the midfield as much as they should. If Fred starts tomorrow I'll keep track of all of Fred's mistakes for you and list them. Meanwhile, I'll bet Rodrigo makes very few.

Who knows. They're a completely different side, and much more successful. Fred could have stood out like a sore thumb because he's as crap as a band of our fans think, or maybe he's a good player with some qualities that are important and he would have done a job as part of a pressing side. They wouldn't have been exaggerating his flaws like we do, that's worth considering. Most players have strengths and weaknesses right.

The point was not to say that he'd have been wonderful with City, as that's highly speculative. Only that it's kind of amusing to see Pep brought up to defend against the misuse of statistics in a Fred v VDB debate after it has been shown that Fred is vastly better statistically when in fact Pep was interested in Fred anyway. Did Peps analytics team identify him as a good player or did he do it by "eye test" I wonder.