Van De Beek | Everton Loan Watch

[lex talionis]

I mean the things posters are labelling as facts are definitely opinions

Touche if your point makes you feel better, but is it in any way a debatable assertion that Van De Beek did look fantastic under Ten Hag and that was never given a fair crack under Ole? No, it really isn't. Both are in fact, facts.

It's fair enough if you believe that Donny looked like shit in the few matches that Ole gave him, but it's incredibly poor management to spend 35m and a 100k/week on a player and then not give him a proper chance. We also spent another 30-40m on wingers who we've sent out on loan and mostly likely will never play for United's first team. Maybe we sell all three and break even, but breaking even at best on 75m in transfer fees is pure stupidity when that kind of cash could have been put to work on midfielders we've all been talking about but for whatever reasons we've taken a pass on -- Rice and Grealish.

 

[gerdm07]

The title of the this thread should include "(Misinformation)"

I just watched the first 60 minutes of the Tot vs Everton match and DVB actually played fairly well. You should understand it was a pretty weird game in that Everton looked to be the better side by a little the first 30 minutes. The first two goals were an own goal and a Pickford blunder. The next two were the result of one of the few really nice moves from Spurs. We shouldn't fear Spurs this weekend based on this match. It could have easily been 0-0 or 1-1 at the half.

Anyway, DVB summary:

- Very tidy with the ball (the kind of thing McFred really can't do consistently)
- He made a couple of really nice forward passes
- Almost all of his passes were accurate and with the correct weight (another thing McFred can't do consistently)
- He only lost the ball twice and one was a tough play under pressure and the other was when he dribbled through 3 players and was tackled
- His one-touch passes were spot on and at least two helped break the lines to move forward

I wouldn't mind seeing DVB and Gordon on our team next year.

 

[Abraxas]

Touche if your point makes you feel better, but is it in any way a debatable assertion that Van De Beek did look fantastic under Ten Hag and that was never given a fair crack under Ole? No, it really isn't. Both are in fact, facts.

It's fair enough if you believe that Donny looked like shit in the few matches that Ole gave him, but it's incredibly poor management to spend 35m and a 100k/week on a player and then not give him a proper chance. We also spent another 30-40m on wingers who we've sent out on loan and mostly likely will never play for United's first team. Maybe we sell all three and break even, but breaking even at best on 75m in transfer fees is pure stupidity when that kind of cash could have been put to work on midfielders we've all been talking about but for whatever reasons we've taken a pass on -- Rice and Grealish.

No.

I'm not quite sure why you keep attempting to redefine the nature and quality of a fact in an attempt to bolster this opinion you hold.

The word fantastic has definitions. They might be different depending on your source, but they exist. That is a fact.

Applying the word fantastic to Donny van de Beek under Ten Hag - not a fact. Not even capable of proof nevermind constituting a fact. It is an opinion for which you can adduce evidence.

 

[lex talionis]

No.

I'm not quite sure why you keep attempting to redefine the nature and quality of a fact in an attempt to bolster this opinion you hold.

The word fantastic has definitions. They might be different depending on your source, but they exist. That is a fact.

Applying the word fantastic to Donny van de Beek under Ten Hag - not a fact. Not even capable of proof nevermind constituting a fact. It is an opinion for which you can adduce evidence.

Under your theory, it therefore cannot be claimed as a fact that Karim Benzema was fantastic against PSG yesterday, despite the fact that he scored a hat trick, including the match winner.

Facts aren't mere statements that can be adjudicated by scientific measurement. When it is universally agreed that a footballer put in a fantastic performance, it becomes a fact by definition that that player put in a fantastic performance. Let's use an easy example: Bastian Schweinsteiger in the World Cup Final in 2014. Schweinsteiger won global accolades for his performance in that WC final. I don't know a single human being who has ever question that he was, well, fantastic in that match. But if we were to adhere to your theory of what a fact is, we would all have to deny that it's a fact that he was fantastic in that WC final. And that would be fecking stupid.

Donny is no Bastian and never will be, but Donny enjoyed widespread acclaim for his fantastic performances under Ten Hag at Ajax. That's a fact. Is it possible that everyone who watched him play is wrong and that he was actually shit or at best mediocre? Sure, it's possible. But hardly likely.

In your attempt to apply a strict epistemological definition of what a fact really is, you're opening up a can of worms that questions our ability as human beings to grasp reality as we confront it. What I am telling you is that it is a graspable reality that Donny was in fact fantastic under Ten Hag at Ajax. It is reasonable tp argue that everyone who holds this view is wrong, but in a situation where the overwhelming consensus holds A and the extreme minority holds B, the burden is on the extreme minority to prove why the overwhelming majority is wrong and not on the overwhelming majority to prove the minority is wrong.

There must have been a reason why Real Madid were interested in Manchester United eventually acquired Donny Van De Beek. It cannot be that Donny was widely held to be a mediocre footballer. There must have been a perception that Donny was worthy of playing for two of the biggest football clubs on the planet. As to why it didn't work out at United is a matter of speculation, but it is a matter of fact that Donny was fantastic under Ten Hag at Ajax.

 

[Abraxas]

.

Under your theory, it therefore cannot be claimed as a fact that Karim Benzema was fantastic against PSG yesterday, despite the fact that he scored a hat trick, including the match winner.

Facts aren't mere statements that can be adjudicated by scientific measurement. When it is universally agreed that a footballer put in a fantastic performance, it becomes a fact by definition that that player put in a fantastic performance. Let's use an easy example: Bastian Schweinsteiger in the World Cup Final in 2014. Schweinsteiger won global accolades for his performance in that WC final. I don't know a single human being who has ever question that he was, well, fantastic in that match. But if we were to adhere to your theory of what a fact is, we would all have to deny that it's a fact that he was fantastic in that WC final. And that would be fecking stupid.

Donny is no Bastian and never will be, but Donny enjoyed widespread acclaim for his fantastic performances under Ten Hag at Ajax. That's a fact. Is it possible that everyone who watched him play is wrong and that he was actually shit or at best mediocre? Sure, it's possible. But hardly likely.

In your attempt to apply a strict epistemological definition of what a fact really is, you're opening up a can of worms that questions our ability as human beings to grasp reality as we confront it. What I am telling you is that it is a graspable reality that Donny was in fact fantastic under Ten Hag at Ajax. It is reasonable tp argue that everyone who holds this view is wrong, but in a situation where the overwhelming consensus holds A and the extreme minority holds B, the burden is on the extreme minority to prove why the overwhelming majority is wrong and not on the overwhelming majority to prove the minority is wrong.

There must have been a reason why Real Madid were interested in Manchester United eventually acquired Donny Van De Beek. It cannot be that Donny was widely held to be a mediocre footballer. There must have been a perception that Donny was worthy of playing for two of the biggest football clubs on the planet. As to why it didn't work out at United is a matter of speculation, but it is a matter of fact that Donny was fantastic under Ten Hag at Ajax.

It's not just about a strict epistemological argument about facts, it's about your hubris and use of facts and football and attempting to use them unnecessarily to prop up your points when a) there is no need to do so and b) they're not facts and well within the realms of debate. It really leads me to think about why you do this, it's as if to eliminate debate by sectioning off parts of the discussion, i.e. we must take for granted that he was fantastic for Ajax because you have definitively stated that it is a fact rather than simply stating it as it is, you believe he was fantastic. Which is clearly a reasonable opinion to hold and then it encourages debate.

For a start, at least a few people on here that saw him for Ajax didn't think he was worth buying let alone fantastic. They must have missed the objectively measured truth. Or perhaps, not only is the usage of fact to be questioned, but maybe they could also question your definition of the word fantastic as applied to football.

What about if we think he was decent for Ajax, or good for Ajax, why should it be taken as fact that fantastic is the only description that is within reason? This is something you have just stated, it doesn't require a minority to formulate a bundle of evidence to disprove you as according to your own usage of facts it can simply be stated (I don't know if the fact is formed in the stating or by majority consensus according to you). Donny van de Beek wasn't fantastic and that's a fact because we think so.

My own opinion is I don't know if he was fantastic, or good, or whether we didn't do our due diligence. Surely we would need to have all of the evidence before our eyes, including a good sample of Dutch league games. Being good in a handful of CL games probably isn't enough and I don't know how many have gone into this detail.

 

[phelans shorts]

How about now?

and now?

 

[Bobski]

Donny loves a safe backwards pass.

There is not enough in his game in a deep role. Just far too limited in his passing range, too happy just to give the ball straight back to the players he gets it from, not enough impetus or creative threat in his game.

He needs to up it massively, go beyond his Joe Allen tidy nothingness impression.

 

[tidraKS]

Donny loves a safe backwards pass.

Yeah, he loves to touch the ball like a 100 times before releasing it to the nearest player or putting it backwards.

 

[Abraxas]

Everton seem to get very little possession in pretty much every game. Not exactly good for a guy that is supposed to be a technical player.

 

[Bobski]

Everton seem to get very little possession in pretty much every game. Not exactly good for a guy that is supposed to be a technical player.

He needs a more attacking role. Honestly there are scores of players around Europe who can give you exactly the same or much better than Donny does in a deep role, where he can be effective is using his good movement and touch around the box, getting goals and assists.

 

[charlenefan]

Take whatever money we can get for him in the summer

 

[Idxomer]

People really thought he could be a midfielder in the PL.

 

[FrankDrebin]

He's non-existent. Doucoure is making space for himself to retrieve passes and closing down the opposition whereas Beek is doing jacksh*t at the moment.
Absolutely pointless playing a player like that in these moment for where Everton need to be.

 

[Barthez]

People really thought he could be a midfielder in the PL.

hopefully get 5-10 million from a foreign club

 

[arthurka]

Wait everybody said he was brilliant. He isn't.

 

[FrankDrebin]

Gordon's a decent little player though.

 

[Bobski]

He's non-existent. Doucoure is making space for himself to retrieve passes and closing down the opposition whereas Beek is doing jacksh*t at the moment.
Absolutely pointless playing a player like that in these moment for where Everton need to be.

So, pretty much the same as the majority of his Utd games then. Just tidy ineffectual anonymity.

 

[Leftback99]

Has anyone in our scouting department been held accountable for the last few years?

 

[Andersonson]

Beek and Alli have been terrible. Absolutely terrible

 

[FrankDrebin]

Neves is looking really good though.

 

[Bobski]

A lot better from him in the last 10 to be fair, finally started to play some forward passes and get closer to Wolves players.

 

[Zevvythered]

Honking!! be lucky to get 20 million for him now….

lightweight, slow and not a good footballer player.

 

[mu4c_20le]

The title of the this thread should include "(Misinformation)"

I just watched the first 60 minutes of the Tot vs Everton match and DVB actually played fairly well. You should understand it was a pretty weird game in that Everton looked to be the better side by a little the first 30 minutes. The first two goals were an own goal and a Pickford blunder. The next two were the result of one of the few really nice moves from Spurs. We shouldn't fear Spurs this weekend based on this match. It could have easily been 0-0 or 1-1 at the half.

Anyway, DVB summary:

- Very tidy with the ball (the kind of thing McFred really can't do consistently)
- He made a couple of really nice forward passes
- Almost all of his passes were accurate and with the correct weight (another thing McFred can't do consistently)
- He only lost the ball twice and one was a tough play under pressure and the other was when he dribbled through 3 players and was tackled
- His one-touch passes were spot on and at least two helped break the lines to move forward

I wouldn't mind seeing DVB and Gordon on our team next year.

Do you have an analysis today?

 

[Bobski]

Anyone still asking why he did not play over Fred and McT in a deeper role?

No passing range, slow, about the best he has in that position is getting his foot in and simple 5-10 yard passes. Very one dimensional and limited player on the ball in that area of the pitch, and if people criticize MCT for hiding they should be looking a DVDB just disappearing for long spells of every match. from 15-65 today he was utterly anonymous, finished ok but when the game was there to be won he was nowhere to be seen, taking no responsibility on the ball at all.

If Ten Hag builds around Donny he will be sacked by Christmas.

None of this should be a surprise to those who actually watched him at Utd instead of being overcome by his martyrdom, it is exactly how he played at Utd as well in like 95% of his games.

 

[FrankDrebin]

Just didn't do anything. Didnt get stuck in, didnt make himself open for passes', was far too safe when he did eventually come into possession, let players casually go past him.

Everton are in a bad state and that's the last type of individual you want in that side at the moment.

 

[FrankDrebin]

Anyone still asking why he did not play over Fred and McT in a deeper role?

No passing range, slow, about the best he has in that position is getting his foot in and simple 5-10 yard passes. Very one dimensional and limited player on the ball in that area of the pitch, and if people criticize MCT for hiding they should be looking a DVDB just disappearing for long spells of every match. from 15-65 today he was utterly anonymous, finished ok but when the game was there to be won he was nowhere to be seen, taking no responsibility on the ball at all.

If Ten Hag builds around Donny he will be sacked by Christmas.

This in a nutshell.

Could've really done with Wolves dropping points today. Comfortable victory.

 

[AltiUn]

No way to sugar coat it, he's rubbish and doesn't suit English football at all.

 

[Dobba]

None of this should be a surprise to those who actually watched him at Utd instead of being overcome by his martyrdom, it is exactly how he played at Utd as well in like 95% of his games.

Absolutely, these exact cowardly performances were getting calls for him to start a few months ago.

 

[V.O.]

Everton are in a bad state and that's the last type of individual you want in that side at the moment.

Nah, the actual last player you'd want to bring in to a relegation scrap with a disjointed team is Dele Alli.

 

[FrankDrebin]

Nah, the actual last player you'd want to bring in to a relegation scrap with a disjointed team is Dele Alli.

He was bad but he did make some decent runs off the ball.
But his career has hit the absolute skids.

 

[Leftback99]

Send him back to Ajax as payment for Ten Hag if we go for him. Just another Davy Klassen (which was my first comment on him on here long before he signed).

 

[united_99]

He is not good at anything. He actually doesn’t do anything.

 

[JB7]

I for one am shocked that three separate people in charge of United looked at him and didn't play him. They were all wrong and the e-Reds were all so clearly correct about him.

 

[Ali Dia]

Another midfielder that was “miles better” than Fred and McT? Just isn’t true is it? We need aggressive people to win the midfield for us. He’s just far too passive. A nice player in theory but this league has become a war where you need to out work the opposing number and impose your game on them. You are getting the runaround otherwise

 

[united_99]

I for one am shocked that three separate people in charge of United looked at him and didn't play him. They were all wrong and the e-Reds were all so clearly correct about him.

Poor Carrick even felt the need to kind of apologize to him when he took him off and we won the game afterwards

 

[Vidyoyo]

He's exactly the type of player you don't need when you're in a relegation scrap.

Wouldnt be surprised if he got dropped soon

 

[united_99]

Another midfielder that was “miles better” than Fred and McT? Just isn’t true is it? We need aggressive people to win the midfield for us. He’s just far too passive. A nice player in theory but this league has become a war where you need to out work the opposing number and impose your game on them. You are getting the runaround otherwise

Yeah McFred at least contribute but the entire forum starts blaming them when they concede fouls. But this guy just doesn’t do anything.
Really weird how this transfer happened. Ole didn’t play him much so not sure he really wanted him. And he is not any kind of Woodward like superstar signing.
Our so called amazing transfer committee with their fancy structure and job titles did an amazing job again.

 

[FrankDrebin]

Yeah McFred at least contribute but the entire forum starts blaming them when they concede fouls. But this guy just doesn’t do anything.
Really weird how this transfer happened. Ole didn’t play him much so not sure he really wanted him. And he is not any kind of Woodward like superstar signing.
Our so called amazing transfer committee with their fancy structure and job titles did an amazing job again.

Scares me.

 

[andersj]

Anyone still asking why he did not play over Fred and McT in a deeper role?

No passing range, slow, about the best he has in that position is getting his foot in and simple 5-10 yard passes. Very one dimensional and limited player on the ball in that area of the pitch, and if people criticize MCT for hiding they should be looking a DVDB just disappearing for long spells of every match. from 15-65 today he was utterly anonymous, finished ok but when the game was there to be won he was nowhere to be seen, taking no responsibility on the ball at all.

If Ten Hag builds around Donny he will be sacked by Christmas.

The genius of Ten Hag appears to be that he makes players look significantly better than they actually are. A bit like Klopp at Dortmund (Sahin, Kagawa etc).

But it is not given that he had a higher level will prefer the same players that he did at Ajax. If he could make an average player look good, he should probably make a good player look very good.

 

[DWelbz19]

He is not good at anything. He actually doesn’t do anything.

He’s good off the ball running into space when you have creative playmakers flanking and behind him (like Ziyech and De Jong) in a extremely meticulous system managed by a very competent tactical coach (Ten Hag). Basically, yeah, he’s not good at anything.

The standout traits Van De Beek had and has are the same his predecessor had who also failed in English football.