Utd now just another big club | All "United losing identity" stuff here

PedroMendez said:
The problem is not to spend big. I dont mind going complete nuts on a player, when he is exactly the player you need to make the next step forward. Spending big becomes a problem if you just buy big names without actually knowing how to fit them in the team-sheet.
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Same argument could be levelled at Ferguson for Robin Van Persie, Juan Veron, and many other of his signings.
 
One of the very first things Van Gaal said in his first press conference was about the commercial and sponsorship side of things, that is now a huge part of our club and that ultimately means instant success. The club had to change once Sir Alex left and we already wasted a season not doing anything at all.
 
0161_UNITED said:
Same argument could be levelled at Ferguson for Robin Van Persie, Juan Veron, and many other of his signings.
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Veron was bought because he wanted to change tactics for Europe. Also Veron was the best midfielder in serie a wen zidane left so it wasn't as ludicrous a signing as some of the hindsight brigade make out.

And Rvp was bought to replace Rooney... Not sure how anybody could of viewed it as an odd signing at any stage!
 
As long as the Di Marias, Falcaos and Herreras do the business on the football pitch, then people will quickly forget about them being expensive imports. And they'll just become United players, entertaining the crowd and bringing us success, and everyone will fecking love it.
 
Is the OP Phelan in disguise?

If we wanted to carry on going by "the United way", the gap between us and City/Chelsea will just grow larger and larger. We can't just rely on youth product to be a solution. There is a risk to that, and with all the experience we've lost over the last year - buying had to be the way to go about it.

Welbeck wanted out. Rumours early on in the summer that he wanted to leave United, seems to have been true given how things have turned out. Do I blame him? No. He was behind Rooney and RVP, and he wasn't really going to break that. He just isn't clinical/prolific enough in front of goal for us. I like him, but I'd have only seen a future as a winger for him here.
 
birdy2121 said:
Tonight we are selling Danny Welbeck to Arsenal while we spend a huge chunk of that transfer fee on a player who spent much of last season injured and unless we pay another huge chunk of money will not be our player thereafter.

This to me signifies the dawn of a new era of Real Madrid esq dealings at Manchester Utd. I was hoping LVG would have been a superb tactician and man manager who could life our players with a few additions to be a top 4 team again, but after a tough start it seems he too has simultaneously hit the panic button with Ed Woodward and we are now spending Monopoly money in the hope it does not bite us on the bum and we come 5th or worse again.

We were ripped of by Real Madrid on the fee of 60m for a player worth circa 40m.

We sanctioned the purchase of a mop for 27m and a talented Chelsea off cast who could now be a bench warmer here for 37m.

What has happened to the soul of the club Fergie built, not to mention the scouting network. We dont panic buy we invest (as Arsenal have done yet again tonight).

Wenger like him or hate him is from the SAF school of thought, he would not panic buy and has never finished outside the top 4. We do it once and all of a sudden were playing a real life version of the PC game of football manager in the boardroom.

LVG for me (yes even now) was the wrong man for the job, he is too old and clearly with his signings has short term ambitions for his CV and Utd. We sadly in 3-4 years will pay for transfer windows gambles like this especially if were outside the top 4.

How I miss what Fergie could achieve with British players with heart who cared for Man Utd rather than
the types on huge money and if the truth were told would rather be somewhere else
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A tad melodramatic, we signed Falcao (on loan albeit) for less than it cost us to buy Bebe!
 
Drummer said:
Veron was bought because he wanted to change tactics for Europe. Also Veron was the best midfielder in serie a wen zidane left so it wasn't as ludicrous a signing as some of the hindsight brigade make out.

And Rvp was bought to replace Rooney... Not sure how anybody could of viewed it as an odd signing at any stage!
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Exactly. How does anyone know that these purchases are indiscriminate? When we bought RvP, this was the chorus on here: "We have Rooney, Welbeck and Chicharito - we need a midfielder not a striker! Why didn't we buy Munian, Gourcuff or whoever was the flavour of the month instead?" And even if we did purchase a player, based on the player's quality, rather than a clear vision of how the team would ultimately unfold, so what? That means we're not a special club anymore? Nonsense.
 
Oh please, cry me a river.

You want us to carry on playing duds like Cleverley and Welbeck when our rivals our fielding players of the calibre of Aguero, Costa, Fabregras, Yaya Toure etc..

These guys have been given a chance and have failed, for every Michael Keane sold a Tyler Blackett will appear, every Welbeck a James Wilson will appear etc..

It's not LVG's fault these players are not good enough, our academy and scouts need to step up.

Since Moyes took over everyone was crying out for a squad overhaul , now it's happening we got certain fans who just want a moan.
 
0161_UNITED said:
Exactly. How does anyone know that these purchases are indiscriminate? When we bought RvP, this was the chorus on here: "We have Rooney, Welbeck and Chicharito - we need a midfielder not a striker! Why didn't we buy Munian, Gourcuff or whoever was the flavour of the month instead?" And even if we did purchase a player, based on the player's quality, rather than a clear vision of how the team would ultimately unfold, so what? That means we're not a special club anymore? Nonsense.
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The departure of SAF was the last remaining remnant of the old club structure....

The club remains special to fans but it's been a company more then a club for some time. You need only look at how some fans celebrate the clubs commercial success to see that the values people used to have towards the club have changed..

Selling Wellbeck or cleverley changes nothing for me. When SAF left, so did the last remaining thing that made united special...
 
First, everyone wants the Glazers out because they don't spend any of the incoming money. Then, when they finally sanction massive signings, everyone says the heart of "The United Way" philosophy has been broken. Truly, there is no winning.
 
Wanting to be different and stick to the United way is why we hired David Moyes.
 
I'd argue that it's been a while since we actually behaved, spent and played like a trully big club. I'm tired of our pathetic football and I'm really tired of us having so many average players that clearly don't belong here. and when you play them against Chelsea, City, Bayern or Madrid, the only thing we can do is to defend, counter and hope/pray that we'll somehow get positive result because that's the only way you can play with players like Young, Cleverley and Valencia. at the same time, you just can't help but admire players like Silva, Hazard, Aguero, Gotze and Fabregas, almost like we are some skint midtable club that can only dream about having those players. that should never be the case with United so, yeah, I'm delighted with our recent transfers.
 
Drummer said:
The departure of SAF was the last remaining remnant of the old club structure....

The club remains special to fans but it's been a company more then a club for some time. You need only look at how some fans celebrate the clubs commercial success to see that the values people used to have towards the club have changed..

Selling Wellbeck or cleverley changes nothing for me. When SAF left, so did the last remaining thing that made united special...
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SAF is still at the club. That is special.
 
I think LvG fully understands the United way. I think he gets it far more than Moyes ever did. I don't think LvG had any other choice this summer. And to be fair he would have probably spent more and got bigger names like Vidal and Hummels if they were available or if their clubs wanted to sell. LvG said it would all take time, but at the same time the players helped force his hand by being well below the standard required in the PL, let alone in Europe. He gave them all a chance and they didn't perform well enough for his liking.

Valencia and Young worked hard in pre-season as did Fletcher. Welbeck did well also, but HE asked to leave as he (rightly) wanted first team football. The rest just weren't up to it or there were better players ahead of them in their positions. LvG obviously prefers Rooney, Mata and Januzaj instead of Kagawa. Many here disagree, but it's not their choice. He saw Cleverly was broken and needed confidence which is why he gave the lad a massive arm around his shoulder when they both fronted a press conference in the states. LvG wouldn't have done that if he already thought Cleverly was going to be sold. It's just Cleverly didn't take the chance and simply isn't good enough.

LvG has promoted Blackett to the first team alongside Reece James and he showed faith in Lingard until he got injured. I'm sure he would have loved a full season to get all these players a bigger chance or to help bed some of them in more, but given the huge financial pressure from sponsors and the massive expectations and pressure from fans to get back to winning ways, he simply had no other choice.

I think United have a manager who understands it all too well, and has stuck by his word, it was the players who let him down as they did Moyes the year before. The difference is LvG has gone and replaced them with truly world class stars or players who have that potential. An 19 year old England player who could give United 10+ years. A young Argentinian who played in the World Cup final. A spanish player touted as a possible replacement for Xavi/Iniesta or even Fabregas in the Spanish side. A versatile young Dutch lad who helped LvG and Holland to 3rd in the world cup and two truly world class players in Falcao and Di Maria. Two players who United fans like myself were shouting at Fergie for years to sign the likes of.

The money aspect is obscene but has been for years and it's only going to get worse. But that is a topic for a different thread I think. I don't see any reason to think United are tainted or spoiled just because of our new manager having to make such drastic changes due to years of neglect in our squad. The players brought in will all get good playing time and none were bought so other clubs couldn't have them, and none will rot on the bench just because they were bought in the way City and Chelsea have bought in the past. There is a difference. Football fans are so fickle and some are just impossible to please. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. Personally, i just can't wait for the QPR game and for the rest of the season. I can see what LvG is trying to do and have faith he will do it well. I also have faith that if a younger player deserves to play over one of the big names then they will. They sure as feck won't be shown videos of Everton and told that's how they need to defend.

United have earned the cash from years of history and success on and off the pitch. It's time to reap those rewards and enjoy it. At the same time understanding there is no guarantee for success, but admitting to have it in this day and age you really do need to compete with the big boys or get left behind in their wake. Personally, that for me, would be far more unacceptable. And to be fair, i'd much rather spend my money watching this current squad than the disjointed, shot of confidence bumbling mess of last season. I'd also much rather give my money to United to be spent on Falcao or Di Maria than the likes of bloody Fellaini. All I ask as a fan is value for money and to play attractive football and be entertained and competing for competitions, I don't EXPECT success, it's just an added bonus. I think we as fans deserve to watch the best on the pitch and the club deserves to have some of the biggest stars in the world representing it and playing for that success. So no, not just another big club, just a bigger MANCHESTER UNITED!
 
It needed to be done though, we are a million miles behind the top teams, things needed to change at least in the short term until we challenge for trophies again.
 
I think it's important to realise that a lot of what we consider "the United way" was in fact SAF's way. Change was inevitable once he went.

This is LVG's United now and it's really too early to tell how he intends to run things. This window may prove to be an exception rather than the rule. After all, we are in a bit of a crisis situation atm so normal operating procedure might not apply.

I would also suggest that any traditions worth keeping are likely to survive while figures like LVG, SAF and Charlton are still at the club. People need to have faith in the club's ability to keep its identity.
 
Flamingo Purple said:
It's how you look at it really. Including wages it's 20m for the year, more than Welbeck cost permanently.
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Which of the following options are true?:

A) You don't know how much Falcao is being paid
B) You ignore the fact that Danny was on best part of £5m a year
C) Welbz wanted to leave and Falcao wanted to come
D) All of the above
 
With the previous squad, we were in danger of dropping into AC Milan territory - a club with a great pedigree but with a current squad way short of quality. Given the huge amount of revenues the club generates and the importance of continuing success (and, less quantifiably, "glamour") to those revenues, it is not surprising that United have gone on this spending spree. There was really no alternative if we wanted to remain relevant.
 
I somehow doubt that the people who moan the loudest when we don't spend big on "top foreign attackers" are the same who worry about giving youth players a chance and the so-called United way.

This is the same Caf logic which dictates that those "fickle" fans who hail Rooney after a good performance are identical to the ones who want him sold (or killed) when he mishits a pass.
 
Ronaldo's Mum Eh? said:
Gee, for a striker, Welbeck sure doesn't score many goals does he?

You know, the main point of a striker?
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I'd say 9 goals from 15 Premier League starts wasn't too shabby for a bit-part player.

And if you look at the one period where he started more than a couple of matches in a row, he scored 6 in 6, as well as getting 2 assists.

You've got high standards. Either that or a short memory / tendencey to mindlessly spout outdated and innacurate cliches.
 
Football has moved on now and the bar has been raised in terms of the standard needed just to finish in the top 4, we have been left behind by other teams in England let alone the top European teams. The only way to address the problem is to invest and I think we have only seen the start of the transition. There aRe still plenty more to ship out and more to come in but LVG now has a base to work from and longer to scout new players for subsequent transfer windows. Hopefully as well as more high profile deals we will also targets one top young talent and some lesser known players as well as bringing through some quality from the academy.
 
I don't have a problem with our spending. It was needed in order to stay competitive with the top PL sides, who were miles ahead of us. I like all our players and hope they step it up, so I'm a sad that Welbeck and Kagawa are gone (Chica too, although it's only a loan, but I doubt it he will ever come back). That's the heart talking, but the mind tells me that all these players were given plenty of chances and failed. Continuing to give them chances is a sure way to cement our place in the middle of the table. Overall I think we did brilliant business. The only thing that bothers me is that we sold Welbeck to a direct rival, especially when they were struggling with injuries.
 
Funny 2 weeks ago all the journos and certain Caf members were having a go at us for not signing players.


Now that we have spent some dosh its all about how we have supposedly betrayed our traditions etc.
 
Former Manchester United assistant manager Mike Phelan feels part of the club's "identity has been broken" with Danny Welbeck's departure to Arsenal.
The England striker, 23, came through United's famed youth system but joined the Gunners for £16m on deadline day.
United brought striker Radamel Falcao on a £6m loan deal from Monaco, their sixth signing of the transfer window.


"They have probably lost the way of Manchester United a little bit," Phelan told BBC Sport.
"Now, rather than produce, it may be the case where they are buying in.
"Someone like a Danny Welbeck has been part of United's identity and that has been broken.
"What will happen in the future now, nobody knows but that thread has been broken now."
Former United midfielder David Beckham said he was sad to see Welbeck leave, but is hopeful promising players will continue to be developed under new manager Louis van Gaal.
"Manchester United have always bought players in but also have had a great scouting system which Sir Alex Ferguson put in quite a few years ago, where we did create home-grown talent, and that is something we have done over the years," said the former England captain.


"I think Louis van Gaal is a talented manager, he is well respected and with Manchester United this is a project that will hopefully last for a few years and be a successful one.
"Hopefully we have still got young players coming through."
For many years United had a strong core of home-grown youth players under former boss Ferguson, with the renowned 'Class of 92' - which included Beckham, Paul Scholes and Phil and Gary Neville - coming through the ranks.
As well as Colombian Falcao, new boss Van Gaal has also brought in Angel Di Maria for a British-record £59.7m, midfielder Ander Herrera for £29m from Athletic Bilbao, left-back Luke Shaw in a £27m from Southampton, the £16m Marcos Rojo from Sporting Lisbon and midfielder Daley Blind from Ajax for £13.8m.
Meanwhile, United youngsters Tom Lawrence, Nick Powell and Michael Keane left on Monday, either on loan or permanently.
However, defender Tyler Blackett, a youth academy product, has played in the Premier League this season, while defender Reece James and goalkeeper Ben Amos have been included in the matchday squad.

But Phelan, who was Ferguson's assistant between 2008 and 2013, believes the big-money arrivals at Old Trafford could suggest a change of philosophy at the club.
"There is always the start of something and maybe this is the start of a new way of doing things at Manchester United and maybe that is the way football is going," he added.
"Is it better to look at the instant rather than the future? It is a difficult one because youth is always the future, we all have to start somewhere and you just hope that product of youth can develop in the Premier League."

Phelan expects Arsenal to give Welbeck the chance to flourish after finding his chances limited at United.
Gunners boss Arsene Wenger already has a number of England internationals in his squad, with Jack Wilshere, Theo Walcott, Kieran Gibbs and Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain all first-team regulars when fit.
England squad member Calum Chambers was signed in the summer from Southampton and the defender has made three Premier League appearances this season.
"He is still only a young player and with young players you will get peaks and troughs but it is a case of Danny feeling more important in himself than he probably was over the last 12 months," added Phelan.
"He is in a position where he can play where he wants and I think that is why he chose Arsenal because they give him the opportunity to play in his best position, which is a striker."


Your thoughts?
 
I don't think we had a problem with Welbeck. He wanted to leave and he was granted his wish. I doubt we wanted to break United's identity by selling him.
 
We are just like every other big club in the sense that we now buy very good players as opposed to not so good players.

I doubt this sentiment would be the same if we had brought in the same numbers, but with simply less good players than we have done. It would be very 'United like' to try and take on Chelsea's Costa and Cesc with a punt on Carlos Mane and I dunno, Jack Cork.

We have been bringing knives to a gun fight for too long now.
 
What if the identity is holding the club back?
 
Just scan read it, but he's probably obviously got a point. Still, when your orchard is rotten, you have to fell a few trees. Regardless of their history
 
Talking shite.

We have given 6-8 players out of the youth set ups their senior debuts with us this season. You'd be hard pressed to find the same number during Fergie's last 2/3 years in total.

EDIT: And we lost our best prospect in years on a free under SAF's management.
 
We have always been like every big club. Let's not forget all those transfer records that Ferguson himself broke over the years.

United have a history of bringing through youth, it is true. But to be able to have that history, you need to have the quality of youth in the first place. At some point you have to let the youth go if they aren't good enough.

And this doesn't necessarily mean a change in the clubs philosophies (god help me, I hate that word). But the club hasn't been in this situation for 25+ years and it calls for drastic action.
 
Don't buy it at all. We've lamented the under-spending for years and now as soon as we flex our financial muscle and sell two academy graduates who were not good enough to consistently play for Manchester United we've broken our identity? Nah. What about our history of success? Surely that represents our identity too? And besides, we still have the likes of Januzaj, Evans, Rafael, Fletcher etc. don't think City or Chelsea can say they've that many academy graduates in and around their first team.
 
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