Utd now just another big club | All "United losing identity" stuff here

My God. There is so much hypocrisy and rubbish being chatted on this thread. Do we want to be successful or not? What was the point of bringing in LVG if we did not want him to transform us back into a winning team? Some of you seem to wish for Moyes as manager with jones, evans, smalling, cleverly, fletcher, wellbeck, rooney, cleverly and shaw as the base of our team. Well those players would barely keep us above relegation.
We were crap last season and its obviously time for a change. Support a pub team if you want it to be local. Man utd is global whether you like it or not.
We want and deserve the best.
 
Dante said:
Quite possibly. The problem is that we've lost a handful of academy graduates and signed 6 new players in the process (mostly from abroad, including a couple of big name mercenaries who were desperate to be at Real this season). That's too much change for a few of us to process in one go. If LvG can integrate the youngsters well enough to give United its character back, we might change our minds. There are too many questions at the moment though. I'm uncertain that the likes of Blackett will make it, for example.
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A handful? Welbeck and...?
 
The Mitcher said:
Yet the parasites give us the money to spend 60 odd mil for Angel di Maria, and the comerical entity we are helps generate that money. I think the glazer blame game is bullshit, they have done nothing but provide the money this transfer window, they did so last year, and we failed to do anything. This year we have, but it remains to be seen if the signings help get us back where we belong.
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£200m spent in the last year. As much as I hate the cnuts, they have definitely given us the money in the last year.
 
Bojan11 said:
Lawrence
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He played one game for the club by the age of 20. Every season we let a few academy players leave if they're unlikely to make the grade here, it's nothing new (remember Chris Eagles, Lee Martin or David Jones?). Not exactly the same as the Welbeck transfer.
 
I must admit, I didn't see it coming. Kagawa, Hernandez, Cleverley, Welbeck all out. Fecking Falcao and Di Maria.

Whether it's for better or worse, it does seem like an almost overnight change in identity. Van Gaal certainly doesn't see to care about "the united way."

If you can't make your quintet work properly, I imagine you'll be in more trouble than under Moyes. You've set yourselves well and truly adrift from Ferguson's legacy and ideas for the progression of this team now and have tied yourselves down to some very high earners for the foreseeable future.

Pressure is on for Van Gaal now with these players. But he knew that.
 
Like it or not, you're not in a position to have van Gaal put his faith in home grown academy players to bring United back where they want to be. This is a power play to ensure united give themselves the best possible chance of Champions League football next season.
 
The reality is that to compete with the big spenders you either have a genius manager like Ferguson or you adopt the standard approach: focus on winning, let the lesser clubs develop players, then pay a lot of money to scoop up the best ones according to your needs. It's an effective business model for the very top clubs.
 
Speak said:
It was inevitable.
Many thought we were truly special just because we were special. But a lot of what made us special and unique for was down to one man and his continuity.

We truly are just another big club. It's not what were used to, but it's not anything to be ashamed of.
We'll have to operate like other top clubs, because there's without Sir Alex there's no guarantee of success any more.
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Exactly..

It suited people to blame moyes for everything that went wrong last season but you need only look how LVG faired this season with pretty much the same squad of players.. If anything united have looked worse with a universally recognised better coach! SAF final league success squad was only ever going to succeed under the management of SAF...
 
B20 said:
I must admit, I didn't see it coming. Kagawa, Hernandez, Cleverley, Welbeck all out. Fecking Falcao and Di Maria.

Whether it's for better or worse, it does seem like an almost overnight change in identity. Van Gaal certainly doesn't see to care about "the united way."

If you can't make your quintet work properly, I imagine you'll be in more trouble than under Moyes. You've set yourselves well and truly adrift from Ferguson's legacy and ideas for the progression of this team now and have tied yourselves down to some very high earners for the foreseeable future.

Pressure is on for Van Gaal now with these players. But he knew that.
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Fergie started his United career by giving the squad he had a chance. He then came to the conclusion that they wern't good enough. He did give them longer than LVG and he admits it was a mistake and should have acted sooner. He then spend big.

Fergie also started his era by dumping a load of youth products. He gave games to the likes of Tony Gill, Gary Walsh etc and then got rid of them after coming to the conclusion they wernt good enough. He kept a few-Blackmore, Robins, Lee martin for a while and gradually starting introducing more of them.

LVG and Fergie may end up being very similar. The first great United team Fergie build only had Giggs plus Hughes as youth products. A big change back then given the fact that United won the European cup in 68 with 8 home grown players, FA cup in 77 with 6, Fa Cup in 83 with 4 and the FA cup in 85 with 4. (Also players like Bailey,Moran and Mcgrath we signed from semi professional clubs).


So Fergie recognized that our Youth system wasn't up to scratch and to challenge he had to buy and revived the youth system with a long term plan.
 
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I think we needed the big change. There was clearly still a big hangover from Fergie's time and it was only weighing down the manager.

We have replaced some players that were pretty average with world class players and young talent.

Swapping Danny and Hernandez for Falcao and Wilson is definitely a good move.

Swapping Kagawa and Cleverley for Di Maria and Herrera is also a good move.
 
YzWayne said:
I'm so glad with the signing of both Di Maria and Falcao, but it's hard to understand what LVG is trying to do here.

Welbeck - left for arsenal
Kagawa - left for Dortmund
Hernandez - loan to Real

Cleverley , Anderson, Young and Fellaini I believe are more of a deadwood compared to those 3.
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Because the players we have sold had value, while Cleverley demanded wages clubs refused to pay and now he will leave for nothing, fellaini is injured, young is a strange one, and who wants Anderson?
 
We promoted Januzaj, Blackett got rewarded for good pre-season, Wilson is training with senior squad and is definitely part of future, Lingard made his debut vs Swansea and few other youngsters are on loan and if they come good, they will be in reckoning. Jones is still young and is integral part of defense. Lot of players in team, though bought, are still young.
I don't think Real Madrid gives so many youngsters chances. What we have done this summer, first time, they do every season. Unless we practice same strategy every summer, we won't be exactly like Real Madrid in terms of team building process. For now, this was a summer where big spend and big names signing was a necessity and Woodward and team obliged.
 
We all knew this team needed at least 200M to rebuild. This was discussed while Moyes was still here. Whoever is surprised by our spending hasn't been paying attention.
 
I'd rather we become just another club and be successful then play it the "united way" and finish 7th.
 
In the next couple years the likes of Young, Fellaini, Anderson, Cleverley & at least one defender who doesn't step up (it's looking like Evans as of right now) will be moved on.

Some of them will have academy players as replacements (Januzaj, Pearson, Pereira etc) and some will be replaced by top class talent like Reus, Strootman, Kovacic (sp) etc.

We're not just another big club because in my opinion all that we have done is similar to a team like Bayern Munich - when a world class player became available we signed them rather than let our rivals do the same.

I would love a team thats built from promising youngsters, but it's just not going to happen - the class of '92 is a gift and a curse because we showed the world that you can build a sustainable and successful team with kids, but as a result all the top clubs consistently compete with each other for the next ''wonderkid"

Besides, we've always been a big club.
 
Sadly, neglecting parts of the team for so long now requires drastic measures and I`m glad we finally have a manager with the balls to do what is necessary. We are not turning into Real Madrid. We just can't afford several seasons outside of the CL. We are growing as a club and the demands for wins is performances is escalating too. We need a team that can get us back in the CL and fighting for the EPL. Currently our team simply does not have the backbone necessary to facilitate the youngsters into the team and in spite of that we have Blackett, Wilson and Januzaj. When we get CL qualification we will be able to afford a few more youngsters.
 
crossy1686 said:
People who are complaining about us replacing players who have been given time to show they're worth with players who are proven class need to have a serious word with themselves.

If it makes you feel any better, this current method is not sustainable, we will go back to the penny pinching old ways as soon as we have a squad that's competitive. Until that happens, just 'try' to enjoy what's happening right now because it won't last, you miserable lot.
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And so it should not be sustained, what will be sustained when the squad is rebuilt, is the club will never go back to their penny punching ways, like the summers between 2009-13, the club when an area is weak they will sign that top player. It keeps the maintenance at a good balance that we will never fall behind. When Ronaldo was sold, the club just fell behind on the rebuilding process, has every summer passed, the club let the squad regress which we payed the ultimate price
 
thegregster said:
Fergie started his United career by giving the squad he had a chance. He then came to the conclusion that they wern't good enough. He did give them longer than LVG and he admits it was a mistake and should have acted sooner. He then spend big.

Fergie also started his era by dumping a load of youth products. He gave games to the likes of Tony Gill, Gary Walsh etc and then got rid of them after coming to the conclusion they wernt good enough. He kept a few-Blackmore, Robins, Lee martin for a while and gradually starting introducing more of them.

LVG and Fergie may end up being very similar. The first great United team Fergie build only had Giggs plus Hughes as youth products. A big change back then given the fact that United won the European cup in 68 with 8 home grown players, FA cup in 77 with 6, Fa Cup in 83 with 4 and the FA cup in 85 with 4. (Also players like Bailey,Moran and Mcgrath we signed from semi professional clubs).


So Fergie recognized that our Youth system wasn't up to scratch and to challenging he had to buy and revived the youth system with a long term plan.
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Very good post. People are losing all sorts of perspective over (essentially) one transfer. There's already been more appearances by players born in Manchester than there was in the entire 92-93 league season.
 
Fergie got rid of one our most promising kids, Keith Gillespie, to get the Andy Cole deal done. If the youngster is good enough, he will stay.
 
thegregster said:
Fergie started his United career by giving the squad he had a chance. He then came to the conclusion that they wern't good enough. He did give them longer than LVG and he admits it was a mistake and should have acted sooner. He then spend big.

Fergie also started his era by dumping a load of youth products. He gave games to the likes of Tony Gill, Gary Walsh etc and then got rid of them after coming to the conclusion they wernt good enough. He kept a few-Blackmore, Robins, Lee martin for a while and gradually starting introducing more of them.

LVG and Fergie may end up being very similar. The first great United team Fergie build only had Giggs plus Hughes as youth products. A big change back then given the fact that United won the European cup in 68 with 8 home grown players, FA cup in 77 with 6, Fa Cup in 83 with 4 and the FA cup in 85 with 4. (Also players like Bailey,Moran and Mcgrath we signed from semi professional clubs).


So Fergie recognized that our Youth system wasn't up to scratch and to challenging he had to buy and revived the youth system with a long term plan.
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Spot on.
 
I've always been uncomfortable with the idea that United are a "special" club. No we not. Its 2014 and we are a struggling club(on the pitch anyway) looking to do well again. Its as simple as that.
 
Yorkeontop said:
I've always been uncomfortable with the idea that United are a "special" club. No we not. Its 2014 and we are a struggling club(on the pitch anyway) looking to do well again. Its as simple as that.
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Exactly, and i don't even know in what sense United is special.
 
Do people here think that world class talents like Scholes, Giggs, Beckham etc grow on trees? If the team is not good enough and the youth setup is not as well, then buy from other clubs. Simple. Why should we persist with playing mediocre players and risk falling even further behind of other clubs just so that we can keep our "holier than thou" bragging rights? What is there to brag about when you are finishing mid table year in year out?

Just because we have sold Welbeck means we are not Manchester United anymore? We have always bought top players, and will still continue to do so. Do you think Ronaldo, Rooney, Ferdinand, Vidic, Nani, Evra etc came from our youth academy?

And let's not forget that we still have Evans, Fletcher, Blackett, Lingard, Januzaj, James, Wilson, Amos etc in our squad. That's way more players from our academy than Chelsea, City, Liverpool and even Arsenal. So chill the feck out and stop repeating things that the stupid media says.
 
It's so funny. People complain when we dont buy players and they complain when we do. There's no winning. Yes, we needed a CB and a CM but people fail to realize that we bought in 2 CMs in Herrera and Blind and we also tried to get Vidal but it just didn't happen. Trying to offload Cleverly and possibly trying to get rid of Andow and even probably Fellaini shows that LVG wants to change the middle of the park, it will just take time... this is not the only transfer window ever. Still, Herrera and Blind can form a great partnership.

Center back is another area we should be looking to improve but realistically who could we got? Benatia wanted UCL football so we were out of the question there. Dortmund has NO intention of letting Hummels go. Beyond those two, most other available to realistic targets would probably not improve us THAT much more than what we have. Yes Vlaar is on some form, Shawcross is pretty solid but are they THAT much better than what we have? Maybe LVG thinks Jones and Smalling will get better the more they are used in CB position, which would not happen if we buy more CBs. People have moaned how they have been played out of position so now why not give them their game time and see how it goes. Plus of course we have Rojo now and Blind can also fill in if needed.

Our squad, albeit a bit lump-sided, looks infinitely better than it did a year ago and people need to stop being so spoilt and just enjoy this transfer window as we are not likely to see one like this again for a while...
 
Yorkeontop said:
I've always been uncomfortable with the idea that United are a "special" club. No we not. Its 2014 and we are a struggling club(on the pitch anyway) looking to do well again. Its as simple as that.
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Disagree, we are a special club. It might sound arrogant to say but our history does mark us out as England's most romantic outfit.

That being said we can also be hard headed. Being the country's glamour club has always come with a certain amount of kudos, which has helped us spend big when its needed. We obliterated the British transfer record paying £115,000 for Denis Law in 1962, a sum that was nearly 4 times the size of the previous British transfer record.

Up until the Glazer era we always, always spent big. When young players were good enough they would make their way into the first team but United have never been afraid of champagne football or champagne signings.
 
birdy2121 said:
Tonight we are selling Danny Welbeck to Arsenal while we spend a huge chunk of that transfer fee on a player who spent much of last season injured and unless we pay another huge chunk of money will not be our player thereafter.

This to me signifies the dawn of a new era of Real Madrid esq dealings at Manchester Utd. I was hoping LVG would have been a superb tactician and man manager who could life our players with a few additions to be a top 4 team again, but after a tough start it seems he too has simultaneously hit the panic button with Ed Woodward and we are now spending Monopoly money in the hope it does not bite us on the bum and we come 5th or worse again.

We were ripped of by Real Madrid on the fee of 60m for a player worth circa 40m.

We sanctioned the purchase of a mop for 27m and a talented Chelsea off cast who could now be a bench warmer here for 37m.

What has happened to the soul of the club Fergie built, not to mention the scouting network. We dont panic buy we invest (as Arsenal have done yet again tonight).

Wenger like him or hate him is from the SAF school of thought, he would not panic buy and has never finished outside the top 4. We do it once and all of a sudden were playing a real life version of the PC game of football manager in the boardroom.

LVG for me (yes even now) was the wrong man for the job, he is too old and clearly with his signings has short term ambitions for his CV and Utd. We sadly in 3-4 years will pay for transfer windows gambles like this especially if were outside the top 4.

How I miss what Fergie could achieve with British players with heart who cared for Man Utd rather than
the types on huge money and if the truth were told would rather be somewhere else
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Moyes destroyed the dream. We can not afford to wait and build when we're outside the top 4 because our example will be Liverpool not Arsenal. We were patient for one year and three games, but we can not risk losing any more time in a competitive environment like this.

The Fergie era is indeed over, and you can't do anything about it, because there is only one SAF.. And Yes, I would prefer the Fergie way, but if it's the Van Gaal way or the Moyes way, I'd much rather the Van Gaal way, and hopefully it will work.
 
#07 said:
Disagree, we are a special club. It might sound arrogant to say but our history does mark us out as England's most romantic outfit.

That being said we can also be hard headed. Being the country's glamour club has always come with a certain amount of kudos, which has helped us spend big when its needed. We obliterated the British transfer record paying £115,000 for Denis Law in 1962, a sum that was nearly 4 times the size of the previous British transfer record.

Up until the Glazer era we always, always spent big. When young players were good enough they would make their way into the first team but United have never been afraid of champagne football or champagne signings.
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In that sense we are not a special club, Football is globalized, you can't just juge a club with british eyes.

We are in the same basket than clubs like Real Madrid, Barcelona or Bayern Munich. All these clubs spend big when necessary and get rid of good players when an homegrown player is available. That's how you stay on top, by mixing both worlds.

We made room for homegrown players like Wilson, Blackett, James or Lingard. But we also made room for top players.
 
Welcome to what happens after one extremely bad window, players dropping off a cliff and changes to the coaches and managers.

When you have the same man in charge and he can rebuild incrementally, you can have what we've had. He can see the progression of players over time. Knows and hired all the staff.

This is not a stable environment anymore. The club isn't even filled with leaders to guide through the youth even if we were on top of the league. This is a million miles way from the environment the club was in when the class of 92 came through. We're now in a league where we've got two clubs with two starting 11's that can get into Europe.

Barcelona have started buying again to catch up and they're in a position I'd love us to be in right now. I imagine they have some proper gems in their academy.
 
United are special in some ways: have always had the biggest crowds, even when in division 2; pioneered successful youth system in the 50's; the unparalleled blow of Munich 58; have won most league titles; multiple Ballon D'Or winners; the most famous English club world wide; biggest financially. It used to be said that everyone in the world knew at least 2 words of English "Bobby Charlton".

Edit: listen to what Falcao, Di Maria and Rojo said when they joined United. This club is revered worldwide like few others.
 
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Isn't the problem with our recent spending spree that it's all come in one chunk? Plus it's gone in a way that will potentially see us fielding 5 or 6 new players in one go for our next PL game? 4 or 5 seasons of under-investment & letting the squad get too big have lead us here & now it feels like big, big changes.

Also Shaw being out injured etc... Him & Herrera haven't had much game time - so it all feels like a bit of a gamble really.

This probably comes down to the fact that most Reds would have been happy to see us spend big on what we really needed Defence/Midfield & settled for the excellent attacking options we had.

Maybe the problem is that the idiotic signing of Fellaini has sent out the idea that we've got more money than sense? It was a big high profile signing, with massive clown shoes on, right at the 11th hour. That doesn't inspire confidence in the powers that be at United.

As others have said, we earn big, so why not spend big. But, that doesn't mean not spending sensibly. Even Mata could be regarded as going out & buying a Rolls, when what you actually needed to do was invest in new double glazing. Great, but not what was needed.

I reckon if Fellaini hadn't happened we'd probably be viewing these signings a bit differently.
 
JPRouve said:
In that sense we are not a special club, Football is globalized, you can't just juge a club with british eyes.

We are in the same basket than clubs like Real Madrid, Barcelona or Bayern Munich. All these clubs spend big when necessary and get rid of good players when an homegrown player is available. That's how you stay on top, by mixing both worlds.

We made room for homegrown players like Wilson, Blackett, James or Lingard. But we also made room for top players.
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I don't think what you're saying contradicts what I've said. All the clubs you have mentioned would be regarded as special clubs.

They are the clubs that everyone on earth knows about. People in Lagos, Lahore, London, and L.A. will know about Man Utd, Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern etc. and that will have been the case for decades.
 
#07 said:
I don't think what you're saying contradicts what I've said. All the clubs you have mentioned would be regarded as special clubs.

They are the clubs that everyone on earth knows about. People in Lagos, Lahore, London, and L.A. will know about Man Utd, Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern etc. and that will have been the case for decades.
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We are acting like them, and people are complaining. So i assumed that these clubs weren't special for some.
 
This summer was all about Woodward trying to redeem himself and ease the pressure he was under after the farce of last summer.
 
Barcelona pay ridiculous fees signing the worlds best players and still promote youth.

There needs to be a balance, if our youth is not good enough, which Fletcher/Cleverley certainly aren't, you have to sign better players its as simple as that.

If you don't like United didn't, you get the problem we had last season, a problem a lot of people saw comming (other than the powers that be) with the amount of average in our team, i for one am glad we've woke up and are now living in modern day football, competing again with the worlds best clubs for the best players in the world.
 
#07 said:
Disagree, we are a special club. It might sound arrogant to say but our history does mark us out as England's most romantic outfit.

That being said we can also be hard headed. Being the country's glamour club has always come with a certain amount of kudos, which has helped us spend big when its needed. We obliterated the British transfer record paying £115,000 for Denis Law in 1962, a sum that was nearly 4 times the size of the previous British transfer record.

Up until the Glazer era we always, always spent big. When young players were good enough they would make their way into the first team but United have never been afraid of champagne football or champagne signings.
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I guess special is an objective term. It has a different meaning for people. I just find it annoying when it is used as an arguement as to why we should or shouldnt do something. "Its because United are a special club".
 
"A Special Club." What a subjective term, it can mean anything you'd want. For United it could be defined as what? Attacking football, bringing through youth players, 4-4-2, and apparently by some ... not spending big money on transfers. Not playing 4-4-2 goes relatively unnoticed (and is often actively encouraged by the majority on here) and there aren't many cries that "we're not a special club anymore" about it. United have throughout their history invested heavily in the team, broken transfer records, etc. The relatively short period of a few years of financial austerity under Ferguson is a contributing factor to the current mess, IMO.

So, we spent a huge chunk of cash. We sacked a manager. We allowed a couple of homegrown players who weren't crucial to our plans to move on in their careers. This has all happened before at United. Not a special club anymore? Seems to me to have a lot more to do with some people's own perceptions of why they support the club (or their understandable distaste for the necessary global commercial aspects of running major sporting institution), rather than anything that the club has done recently.
 
The problem is not to spend big. I dont mind going complete nuts on a player, when he is exactly the player you need to make the next step forward. Spending big becomes a problem if you just buy big names without actually knowing how to fit them in the team-sheet.
 
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