I don't think he cares much what you think either, at least one of the things involved in his statement is important.
Utd now just another big club | All "United losing identity" stuff here
- Thread starter birdy2121
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What's that then?
You try finding buyers for them with their ridiculous wages. Cleverley decided not to leave himself, we're not going to force him out.
Leo Durocher said it best: nice guys finish last. There's no style points in a football table. United's squad needed improvement-the homegrown kids weren't the answer. Solution-get in better players by buying them.
Is a continued slide towards mediocrity with sub-standard players really the preferred option?
Is a continued slide towards mediocrity with sub-standard players really the preferred option?
We tried to rid of Clevs but it fell through.
We tried to sell Anderson to Burnley and that fell through.
Fellaini got injured all of a sudden or he was off to Napoli.
It's not like he hasn't been trying.
Quite possibly. The problem is that we've lost a handful of academy graduates and signed 6 new players in the process (mostly from abroad, including a couple of big name mercenaries who were desperate to be at Real this season). That's too much change for a few of us to process in one go. If LvG can integrate the youngsters well enough to give United its character back, we might change our minds. There are too many questions at the moment though. I'm uncertain that the likes of Blackett will make it, for example.
The club.
He's a nobody struggling to give a feck about something, you're a nobody struggling to give a feck about another nobody, you're not expected to give a feck about what he thinks.
I think we all agree, but LVG has said all along that the decision to leave was up to the players. The fact Welbz, Shinji & Chico are all actually quite good is pretty much the reason why they left, because they felt they were too good to keep sitting on our bench and wait for their chances. They would've all been kept if they'd been willing to stay and play bit parts.
The rest obviously are all willing to stay and play bit parts....Unfortunately.
It's weird.
Last season, or the season before, I was livid we just sat back and let the likes of City, Madrid, Chelsea, or Barcelona hoover up all the world class talent. I'm sure I probably was among those that uttered phrases such as 'Jewish kid at christmas'. So you'd think after signing Falcao, having one week prior signed Di Maria I'd be over the moon.
I'm not.
I always identified with this club, the ethos here, stretching back to the Busby Babes. We might not always have managed it, but it was nice to see a club interested in its youth teams and giving chances to those whose development started here. Even when Fletcher, Gibson, and Cleverley were and are getting dogs abuse it was still nice to see the fact that they were given time to succeed or fail in the first team. Would we all have been in love with United over the past 20 years if Paul Scholes, Ryan Giggs, Gary Neville and even the lesser stalwarts like Butt, Brown, O'Shea and even Beckham have been an endless procession of very talented yet very temporary foreign imports.
Signings like the Falcao one, and I felt similar about RVP and still do to some extent, leave a bad taste in the mouth when academy graduates who have done little wrong are shafted out just because a 'world class player' happens to have become available. I never thought pulling off a signing like Falcao would make me feel like this, but if this is the beginning of the end of what makes Manchester United Manchester United then I'm not sure how long I'm going to be continued to be so emotionally invested in the club.
Last season, or the season before, I was livid we just sat back and let the likes of City, Madrid, Chelsea, or Barcelona hoover up all the world class talent. I'm sure I probably was among those that uttered phrases such as 'Jewish kid at christmas'. So you'd think after signing Falcao, having one week prior signed Di Maria I'd be over the moon.
I'm not.
I always identified with this club, the ethos here, stretching back to the Busby Babes. We might not always have managed it, but it was nice to see a club interested in its youth teams and giving chances to those whose development started here. Even when Fletcher, Gibson, and Cleverley were and are getting dogs abuse it was still nice to see the fact that they were given time to succeed or fail in the first team. Would we all have been in love with United over the past 20 years if Paul Scholes, Ryan Giggs, Gary Neville and even the lesser stalwarts like Butt, Brown, O'Shea and even Beckham have been an endless procession of very talented yet very temporary foreign imports.
Signings like the Falcao one, and I felt similar about RVP and still do to some extent, leave a bad taste in the mouth when academy graduates who have done little wrong are shafted out just because a 'world class player' happens to have become available. I never thought pulling off a signing like Falcao would make me feel like this, but if this is the beginning of the end of what makes Manchester United Manchester United then I'm not sure how long I'm going to be continued to be so emotionally invested in the club.
That is why I am depressed when people like Kagawa and Welbeck left. Understand about the wages and we have been trying all sorts of way to get others out. But in a footballing sense, we gotten out tier B out instead of tier C where tier B can provide a better backup to tier A.
However, in business world, who in the right mind would pay that kind of money for the tier C. I get it guys, just letting it out only.
It is a shock to the United culture but we all agree that urgent massive rebuilding is needed. If we don't get ourselves back in the CL this year there will be financial and player recruitment issues down the line. We are clearly trying to spend our way (and will do so over the next couple of windows) back into the CL. Why is that a problem if the ownership (finally) are realising that we cannot fall into the Liverpool stagnation of the 90s. Woody (despite his inexperience) and LVG are no fools. If we manage the right the ship this year and be able to recruit high profile players with CL appeal, it is entirely reasonable to assume that we will shift back to our normal policy of giving the young fellas a chance. United, at this point, needs to play like any other big club to get back to being competitive at the highest level.
Great post.
TBF, We have given them loads of chances over the past years and if they were any good, they would be regular starters at least under one of the managers. Who do you think was not given enough chances?. Cleverley? Welbeck?.Gibson? Fletcher?.
If we had gone and sold Wilson or Januzaj, you might have a reason to complain, but we have rather promoted him ahead of Welbeck. People don't see this. Welbeck at his age, wants first team footbal, which we cannot promise even if we had not signed Falcao, so the issue is not with us there.
Times change and if you cannot cope with it, you will be left behind. Thats the hard reality of football,or for that matter, any sport.
Though we let go of some academy graduates we have a group of much more talented youths coming up to take their place. Its about building a solid base to introduce them within the team. The spending has been a 'necessary evil' for the greater good.
Welbeck wasn't shafted out though. He's more comparable to Nicky Butt except he wants consistent first team football while Nicky was happy to be a squad option. Youth players of the proper quality continue to get chances see Januzaj, Blackett and probably Wilson next. Welbeck forced a transfer away from us. So it's not ideal that he's gone to Arsenal but the anger at the clubs direction or values or whatever just seems misplaced to me.
Don't know whether this was posted before, but it's fitting for this thread IMO. Great article.
It was necessary, simple as that. I hate us spending this amount of money as well, but it just has to be done. The players we had last season were no where near good enough to play for Manchester United, and in a way they were putting the club to more shame with their halfhearted efforts than Van Gaal and Woodward are now with their spending.
We are Manchester United, we are not just another big club. SAF broke the English transfer record many times, and now LvG is spending big again to help us get back to the top. We let Darren Fletcher to stay with the team despite his chronic illness and paid his wages. We did not do an Abidal on him, did we? We let Welbeck, Chicha and Kags go because they were not going to be getting the game time that they wanted and would probably stagnate. We did whats good for those who left and for the club. We will see a new era in Man United's history, but we will never be just another big club.
Not another big club, but finally a proper big club. I've had this feeling since I first started supporting, that despite having one of the best teams and managers around, we would usually fall a bit short when the really big clubs came knocking. We've never been the club to get the absolute best players, never really crushed top teams in the CL (exceptions, but both our wins was a struggle). It was always a bit more about using what you have, hard work and a will to win than pure dominance. Nothing wrong with that, but it's rarely going to be enough.
All this talk about "building a team" is a bunch of nonsense from people living in the past. That's not how you sustain a big club, that's how you create a big club. But once that job is done, if you want to remain on top, you have to use that big club advantage (money, reputation) to try and crush your competitors and widen that gap. This should have happened when we reigned supreme in the early 00s, but we missed the boat with the sale. And ever since we've been relying on the pure genius of Ferguson to keep us competitive. And that's not good enough. United isn't just supposed to be competitive. They are supposed to be the best. Play the best. Win more titles than anyone.
And these muppet signings are a step in the right direction. We've been sort of laughing at Spain and the oil clubs for doing this, but really, why are we laughing? They're the ones domination the Champions League. Not us.
Edit: That being said, we should aim more towards becoming Bayern than Real, Barca, Chelsea.
All this talk about "building a team" is a bunch of nonsense from people living in the past. That's not how you sustain a big club, that's how you create a big club. But once that job is done, if you want to remain on top, you have to use that big club advantage (money, reputation) to try and crush your competitors and widen that gap. This should have happened when we reigned supreme in the early 00s, but we missed the boat with the sale. And ever since we've been relying on the pure genius of Ferguson to keep us competitive. And that's not good enough. United isn't just supposed to be competitive. They are supposed to be the best. Play the best. Win more titles than anyone.
And these muppet signings are a step in the right direction. We've been sort of laughing at Spain and the oil clubs for doing this, but really, why are we laughing? They're the ones domination the Champions League. Not us.
Edit: That being said, we should aim more towards becoming Bayern than Real, Barca, Chelsea.
United is about developing youth and having a British core of players.
But United is also about trophies and entertaining football.
The players let themselves down by failing to win matches in style last season.
If the club allowed sentiment to win and stuck by players that weren't getting it done, then it would destroy the winning spirit at the club.
Van Gaal and these imports will create an ethos into which the next generation of youth products and the best British players can flourish.
Luke Shaw, Blackett, Januzaj, James Wilson, Rooney, Carrick...there's still hope. I'm sad that Welbeck's name isn't on that list, but if he was complaining last sesson under Moyes, then maybe the relationship with the club was ruined to a point where he needed a new start and couldn't spend another season as an unhappy benchwarmer.
But United is also about trophies and entertaining football.
The players let themselves down by failing to win matches in style last season.
If the club allowed sentiment to win and stuck by players that weren't getting it done, then it would destroy the winning spirit at the club.
Van Gaal and these imports will create an ethos into which the next generation of youth products and the best British players can flourish.
Luke Shaw, Blackett, Januzaj, James Wilson, Rooney, Carrick...there's still hope. I'm sad that Welbeck's name isn't on that list, but if he was complaining last sesson under Moyes, then maybe the relationship with the club was ruined to a point where he needed a new start and couldn't spend another season as an unhappy benchwarmer.
Jorge Mendes should just become our DOF
I love it, we don’t spend, people blame the glazers for being leaches and taking all our hard earned cash away. Now that we have spent we are suddenly a different club and not following the United way. Fans it seems will never be happy.
Let’s be honest, we have spent big in the past and it is one of the reasons we have been so successful at times. We have brought through kids before and will continue to do so in the future, but the class of 92 isn’t something that united is going to replicate every time. And even during their time we were signing up players for big money as well. We like to view ourselves as special, but I remember even Real fans have mentioned they had a golden generation of kids come through during their history.
I have no issues with the spending, it is partly what made the club the powerhouse it is today despite what some fans want to tell themselves. And if we want to maintain that position we are going to have to keep spending big on quality players when required.
Let’s be honest, we have spent big in the past and it is one of the reasons we have been so successful at times. We have brought through kids before and will continue to do so in the future, but the class of 92 isn’t something that united is going to replicate every time. And even during their time we were signing up players for big money as well. We like to view ourselves as special, but I remember even Real fans have mentioned they had a golden generation of kids come through during their history.
I have no issues with the spending, it is partly what made the club the powerhouse it is today despite what some fans want to tell themselves. And if we want to maintain that position we are going to have to keep spending big on quality players when required.
Heinze, Tevez, Ince, Kanchelskis all had bad personalities Herrera, Blind, Shaw all look like they have positive personalities.
Reece James, Tyler Blackett, Jonny Evans, Jesse Lingard, Darren Fletcher, Adnan Januzaj, James Wilson, seven players from our youth team to go along with an English core of Carrick, Jones, Smalling, Shaw, and Rooney.If we win the title with these included it will definitely feel like a proper Manchester United win.
What is this shit thread? Our "soul" has been destroyed??? What's next, United have turned into criminals?
Bottom line is that British top level football is nothing like what it was in the 1980s or the late 1940s. Times have changed and if we want succeed in these times we have to invest heavily in the best players we can possibly acquire.
Yes, of course, we'd like to grow our entire squad at home. Even just two or three youth promoted to the first team would be sensational. But if our young players just don't step up -- look at Welbeck and Cleverley -- we have to look elsewhere.
If there's a structural reason our young players aren't cutting it let's deal with that structural problem. I hope Louis pays attention to this part of the club. But we hit the rocks last season and have started out poorly this season and we had to invest. We had to sack a British manager and brought in a Dutch manager. We have to move forward or else we risked becoming the next Liverpool, or Leeds or Forest. Does anyone here seriously wish for that fate for us?
Bottom line is that British top level football is nothing like what it was in the 1980s or the late 1940s. Times have changed and if we want succeed in these times we have to invest heavily in the best players we can possibly acquire.
Yes, of course, we'd like to grow our entire squad at home. Even just two or three youth promoted to the first team would be sensational. But if our young players just don't step up -- look at Welbeck and Cleverley -- we have to look elsewhere.
If there's a structural reason our young players aren't cutting it let's deal with that structural problem. I hope Louis pays attention to this part of the club. But we hit the rocks last season and have started out poorly this season and we had to invest. We had to sack a British manager and brought in a Dutch manager. We have to move forward or else we risked becoming the next Liverpool, or Leeds or Forest. Does anyone here seriously wish for that fate for us?
Face it guys, the world has changed. Look where is Ajax now without all the money.
I'm a bit puzzled by all this, to be honest.
Getting Falcao in on loan on the last day of the window doesn't strike me as an obvious move for someone who is patiently implementing his philosophy and (re)building a team.
I have NO issue with us finally splashing the cash - that ain't it. I'm not sure about how it's been splashed, though.
I hope Rojo is enough of an upgrade on our defensive options. I hope Blind is enough of an upgrade on our midfield options. Di Maria and Falcao are top class players, nobody will deny that. They won't solve what I perceive to be our biggest issues at the moment, though.
As for the soul of the club, I agree with much of what's been said. I share the sentiments of those who have expressed some doubts and worries over this. Can't say much more than that, really.
Getting Falcao in on loan on the last day of the window doesn't strike me as an obvious move for someone who is patiently implementing his philosophy and (re)building a team.
I have NO issue with us finally splashing the cash - that ain't it. I'm not sure about how it's been splashed, though.
I hope Rojo is enough of an upgrade on our defensive options. I hope Blind is enough of an upgrade on our midfield options. Di Maria and Falcao are top class players, nobody will deny that. They won't solve what I perceive to be our biggest issues at the moment, though.
As for the soul of the club, I agree with much of what's been said. I share the sentiments of those who have expressed some doubts and worries over this. Can't say much more than that, really.
1. Why hope for that ? Why stick a bandage on the squad when it needs some major restructuring and has needed that for a while now ? And new managers should always be given the leeway to mold their sides and really put a stamp on the team. It's not something unique to Van Gaal and alien to Manchester United. Let us revisit Fergie's earlier days where he completely retooled the squad in a couple of seasons including letting go some players who were much more accomplished than Danny Welbeck.
In :
Liam O'Brien.
Viv Anderson.
Brian McClair.
Steve Bruce.
Paul Dalton.
Jim Leighton.
Lee Sharpe.
Mark Hughes resigned.
Mal Donaghy.
Ralph Milne.
Jules Maiorana.
Out :
Mark Hughes.
Alan McLaughlin.
Mark Dempsey.
Fraser Dibgy.
Peter Barnes.
Mark Higgins.
Martin Russell.
Simon Ratcliffe.
Mark Todd.
Frank Stapleton.
Johnny Sivebaek.
Terry Gibson.
Arthur Albiston.
Kevin Moran.
Andy Comyn.
Graeme Hogg.
Chris Turner.
Jesper Olsen.
Peter Davenport.
Liam O'Brien.
Paul Dalton.
Gordon Strachan.
If a manager like Van Gaal who under normal circumstances would loathe to spend the club's money sees benefit in strengthening, isn't he to be trusted ? Or should we hogtie him and lend him no support in the market at a critical period of time for the club ?
2. Wut ?
That's entirely subjective and not a fact. The player is worth what the selling club values him at and what the buying club wants to pay for him. And in fairness this isn't the mid 2000s anymore where you could buy top class players off the shelf for £40 million. Angel had a contract running until 2018, outshone Gareth Bale who cost £20 million more, was the second best player for the CL winners and is entering his prime years. The market had already been set by Suarez and James' transfers and Angel is their equal or atleast on a similar level. Hence the transfer fee.
3. That soul evaporated with Fergie. It's time for OUR current manager to lead us into a new era. As long as supporters like you and others are fixated on doing this a certain way, there's will be no moving forward in those eyes. We made a massive mistake trying to do things the way Matt Busby did in later years and suffered the due consequences and now we risk the ghost of Fergie haunting Manchester United managers. We need a clean break from the previous tenure. The man was unique and his methods can't be replicated. So instead of trying to ape his philosophies we have a man in Van Gaal whose cojones are large enough, literally and figuratively so tread his own path.
4. Wenger never had the resources to do what United are doing right now and is you for real ? They don't panic buy ? Indubitably. Arsene's always been one of the biggest last dash muppets around. His response to being manhandled at the start of the 2011 season : Andre Santos, Per Mertesacker, Mikel Artera, Park Chu Young on deadline day. That's 4 players he signed in 1 day, not to mention the likes of Gervinho, Joel Compbell, Oxlaide-Chamberlain previously in the window. The cost less yes, but that's because Arsenal were skint. But yeah his answer to a projected inability in qualifying for Europe was to sign a boatload of players. We must always retain that perspective - Manchester United has the ability to spend much more than any Premier League based club.
Also since when has fecking Arsenal become the barometer for success ? Yeah mate sure let's think like a team that hadn't won a single trophy in almost a decade and now on the back of an FA Cup they have been catapulted into a model of excellence. Jesus Christ talk about setting the bar low. And FWIW you're comparing a first year manager and projecting him vs one who has been on his arse since 1996. Wenger's blueprint has been laid out since long (BTW he had 22 ! player turnovers in his first year incharge and 24 the year later. Have that for consistency). He also became the first manager to field multiple nil-English/ academy player XIs during his tenure with more French ones than local let's also bear that in mind.
5.
You sir need to get on with the times and stop living in the past. Accepting change is the path to contentment. Hanging on to misappropriated romantic sentiments will only lead to disappointment. But like, whatever.
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We get taken over by American parasites who flog us on the New York Stock Exchange while the club whores itself to seemingly any commercial entity in the world.
But we buy some footballers from abroad to get back to winning ways - that's when people complain about the soul of the club?!
But we buy some footballers from abroad to get back to winning ways - that's when people complain about the soul of the club?!
Signing these guys can also help the youth to develop more. Nobody complained when we paid shitloads for Keane and Rio. They could have a Cantona-like influence on the rest.
People who are complaining about us replacing players who have been given time to show they're worth with players who are proven class need to have a serious word with themselves.
If it makes you feel any better, this current method is not sustainable, we will go back to the penny pinching old ways as soon as we have a squad that's competitive. Until that happens, just 'try' to enjoy what's happening right now because it won't last, you miserable lot.
If it makes you feel any better, this current method is not sustainable, we will go back to the penny pinching old ways as soon as we have a squad that's competitive. Until that happens, just 'try' to enjoy what's happening right now because it won't last, you miserable lot.
Yet the parasites give us the money to spend 60 odd mil for Angel di Maria, and the comerical entity we are helps generate that money. I think the glazer blame game is bullshit, they have done nothing but provide the money this transfer window, they did so last year, and we failed to do anything. This year we have, but it remains to be seen if the signings help get us back where we belong.
I'm very disappointed Welbeck has left. I was literally one of his biggest supporters here but Falcao is significantly better. It's an improvement and if anything slimming the squad is creating new opportunities for young players so I'm not worried about that at all. Wilson, Januzaj, Blackett are presumably all going to see game time this season (especially Januzaj for obvious reasons) and we may even see some of Perriera, Powell, Pearson, Janko, and others if the opportunity arises. LVG first and foremost is building our first team which was severely under strengthed. We needed signings to do that. The squad and future first team will come from the youth ranks most likely considering it's obvious LVG is dumping or looking to dump a lot of the dead wood we have now. Cleverley, Welbeck, Hernandez, etc leaving opens up space for young players it doesn't hinder development.
All in all, if we want to be a big club we have to act like a big club, which is what I've said for a long time. That means spending and it means bringing in players that will make a difference right now.
All in all, if we want to be a big club we have to act like a big club, which is what I've said for a long time. That means spending and it means bringing in players that will make a difference right now.
With all due respect but this is a pile of crap.
First of all, keeping players just because they are British was not SAF's way (at least not the SAF of old). We're talking about the same man who bought the second most rated playmaker of his generation despite knowing that he already had Paul Scholes in that position (and we're talking about Paul Scholes here and not some striker with the finishing skills of Philip Neville). Under SAF, the amount of foreigners being bought increased exponentially and foreign talent were introduced even at youth level. The truth is that players used to make it with SAF of old because they were good enough and not because they were British.
Secondly you may not notice but VG had spent 30m on an 19 year old English full back and had introduced players like James, Blackett and Lingaard to the first team. Its not his fault that there's no quality British talent around and that Danny Welbeck (whose hardly a world beater) thought that being a United squad player is not good enough for a player with his immense talent.
Finally what exactly make these signings short term ambition? Shaw is 19, Blind and Rojo are 24, Herrera is 25, Di Maria is 26 and Falcao is 28. They don't look old to me. Its certainly look more long term then insisting on players with chronic illnesses or at age 38-40 because 'no one can replace Paul Scholes'
The writing was on the wall and we all knew that many players were not up to the level. The homegrown talent talent that left the club left it because they wanted to and were replaced with much better talent.
It seems pretty simple to me; I would much rather we spend some of our well earned income on getting the right players in, than not spending money, having it line the glazers pockets, and risk becoming another liverpool for the next 20 odd years.
A wee bit melodramatic but there's a lot of that post I agree with. Which is depressing.
Yeah there's lots I agree with. Wenger is a fantastic manager.
What pisses me off is how many big players we let go at once. Giggs, Ferdinand, Evra, Welbeck, Vidic have all been at this club for a decade or more and we got to say goodbye to Vidic.
What pisses me off is how many big players we let go at once. Giggs, Ferdinand, Evra, Welbeck, Vidic have all been at this club for a decade or more and we got to say goodbye to Vidic.
This thread provides an interesting contrast to the Cleverley thread where one of our academy graduates is being slagged off left, right and centre for not fecking off and wishing to stay at Manchester United.
Evra and Vidic have been here for eight years, not a decade. Though I miss them as well. But we had no choice with Vidic who announced his decision months ago, it was high time for Giggs to retire from playing and he stayed on as assistant manager, Welbeck, by all accounts, wanted to leave and pretty much forced a permanent move. I'd have kept Evra and possibly Rio as well but oh well. Change happens. Once Evra and Vidic were relatively unknown 25-year-olds from foreign countries; they got the chance and became club legends. The new signings will have that opportunity as well.