Utd now just another big club | All "United losing identity" stuff here

ArmchairCritic said:
I read your post as intimating keeping a British core was important because they are more likely to stick around because they are erm British, might have been a bit of reach on my part. I guess the point I was trying to make is it really doesn't matter about nationality now. Sometimes a player just fits in at a club, look at Evra, he understands United better than most players and he nearly left a few times.
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I didn't say British. I said "from that country". Be it Spain, Russia, wherever.
I agree about Evra, and players like him. I wasn't claiming that players from elsewhere can't be as valuable or love the club as much.
Just that it's more important for a manger to look to bring in/keep a base of players from the country of the club, if he has long term plans and assurances that he'll be given the time it needs - which most top clubs can't really guarantee any more.

It's not so much that the manager wont care as long as they're winning, but that they're under pressure to deliver.
 
Feck sake you bunch of fecking moaners, club couldn't do right either way, spend or not.
 
Some of you are pathetically melodramatic. I love the traditions of United as much as any but this is arguably the first window in our history where we have dealt this way and its the same summer januzaj was made number 11 having come through the reserves and james wilson will now be our 4th striker.

The fact of the matter is that we are in massive danger of sinking fast as a club and needed world class talent to get back into the champions league. If the likes of giggs or scholes was coming through the youth set up do you think we'd have used them? of course we would! we put out our best youth last week and got absolutely hammered by bloody mk dons!

get real. as if we didnt know that after ferguson left we would need major investment. weve bought players that fit the united philosophy in other ways. weve bought some of the worlds top talent who will hopefully help get us back to where we belong with the help of De Gea, Rafael, Jones, Smalling, Evans, Fletcher, Rooney. All players that have been at this club from a young age. If we are introducing 2-3 players a year to some first team football we're doing a hell of a lot more than most other big clubs. And we'll see januzaj and wilson this season.

Blackett has started the first 3 games, is he not local enough? yet people piss and moan that we didnt buy a top defender?!! Absolutely ridiculous, sanctimonious horse shit.
 
Mockney said:
Fair enough, but you seem to have invested in a very era specific way that was never practically going to last forever.
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I know. But plenty of people begin to fall out of love with their boyhood clubs as they get older. It's been in the works with me for a while, to be fair. Hopefully it won't happen, but I've got a couple City supporting mates who went a similar route. They still follow their team but don't live or die by the results anymore.

decorativeed said:
Struggling to give a feck about this club at the moment.
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A fellow Manc in a similar boat as me. I'm not quite as bad yet, though.
 
Joemo said:
This "holier than thou" attitude makes me sick. Yes we have a history of producing youth players, yes we have more history than Chelsea and City, but the game's changed and if you don't spend big you get left behind. If we scrap youth all together then I won't be happy, but Welbeck isn't good enough to hold down a permanent first XI position and Falcao is arguably the world's greatest striker.

Get with the times.
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I don't know how much this needs stressing. The way some people on here talk, one would think we're running the La Masia!
 
Long term the youngsters will benefit at United because LVG will have less quantity in front of them, even if there is more quality.

Welbeck and Cleverley aren't even young anymore, they're mid-twenties.

We've also given league debuts to 3 players already this season I believe.
 
Ramshock said:
City have a few empty seats and a Bluemoon seems a welcoming place
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Mainoldo said:
Go support Everton then. Very tight run family club.
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That's a little harsh. When talking about family clubs, United always did seem like an extension of my own, given all the family members who supported them. Now it's like we've got a new stepdad and he smells a bit funny.

Believing things would never change was always going to be unrealistic, but you can't expect everyone to take to it just like that.
 
We've always been another big club. Like Bayern. Like Barca. We spend big occasionally but always give youth a chance, this season won't change that. Just because Welbeck wasn't good enough to cement a spot by the age of 24 doesn't mean this philosophy has changed. Selling Welbeck obviously isn't a popular decision, but it's probably the right one for all people involved. He's not good enough to become a starter for us, or at least become one while he is here. Just not lethal or threatening enough.
 
Walrus said:
I agree with the majority of the OP. The club really seems to be struggling to "get it right" in recent years - either we shamelessly ignore enormous gaps in the squad, or we sign random luxury players that we dont need, or in this case, both.

I am in the minority of fans who actually thinks that the core of our team and our youngsters are/were capable of improving and getting us back to the top, under the guidance of the right manager. There were problems which needed addressing - such as with Shaw and Herrera, but the whole Falcao deal (and to an extent, Di Maria even) seem not only completely out of character for the club, but rather unnecessary. I can see why in Di Maria the club wanted a real marque signing, but there is no doubt we overpaid and really he isnt the commanding CB or CM that we could have truly done with.

Falcao though? After LVG talks about an unbalanced squad, having too many strikers/AMs? We get rid of Welbeck, Hernandez and Kagawa so we can loan in a mercenary for a year at a cost of something like £20m? And pay another £40m if we want him beyond that? I would sooner keep Welbeck and give Januzaj/Wilson some more gametime to boot.

In defence we have signed Rojo and Blind - two relatively cheap, young players, putting them pretty much on the same page as the rest of our defence which everyone is so content to call inadequate? If we signed a true first choice CB, on the level of a Vidic or Kompany then fair enough, but how do we know that Rojo or Blind are actually going to turn out any better than Smalling, Jones or Evans? We dont, and you are kidding yourself if you claim otherwise.


I dont mean to sound so negative about this transfer window as I am pleased we havent spent another two months being teased about Fabregas and Kroos (Vidal?) only to end up pretty much empty handed, but our transfer policy under Woodward just doesnt strike me as being that well thought out, I dont want to see us turn into another Man City or Chelsea filling a team with overpriced mercenaries. That doesnt mean I dont want some quality players, but these should be good players that have been scouted and identified as adding something to the team, not just "Oh world class player x is available?! SIGN HIM!!"
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Well thought out and articulate post, succinctly setting out both sides. Your last four lines just totally sum up the way I feel about the way we are moving forward and this is what concerns me and should also worry the money men at Utd as you can quickly piss millions away with those kinds of hipster signings, just ask Chelsea fans about Torres.
 
Dante said:
That's a little harsh. When talking about family clubs, United always did seem like an extension of my own, given all the family members who supported them. Now it's like we've got a new stepdad and he smells a bit funny.

Believing things would never change was always going to be unrealistic, but you can't expect everyone to take to it just like that.
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Yeah but what was you though 'a give Moyes time?' 'The players aren't good enough' or 'every club goes through a cycle'? Either way things where going to change here. Your better off accepting it and trying to enjoy the ride. At the minute we are adismal and a laughing stoke to every club who all have the answers now. But watching us rise sounds fun as hell!!!
 
Dante said:
I know. But plenty of people begin to fall out of love with their boyhood clubs as they get older. It's been in the works with me for a while, to be fair. Hopefully it won't happen, but I've got a couple City supporting mates who went a similar route. They still follow their team but don't live or die by the results anymore.
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Even though I think those City fans are a bit churlish myself, they at least have a better reason. Their entire identity has changed. They defined their team as the little guy for nearly 30 years. They've now got only big siginings with little to no youth in their side. Conversely we've always been a huge club with huge responsibilities. We've always broken transfer records for big foreign players. We've hired a manager with an impecable youth record who's given debuts to several academy prospects already. This all seems to stem from the fact we've sold Danny Welbeck, after he requested to leave, which has sent a few select people into a completely unreasonable, perspectiveless nosedive.

Though if you feel that way, you feel that way. It's a shame you do.
 
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Mockney said:
Even though I think those City fans are a bit churlish myself, they at least have a better reason. Their entire identity has changed. They defined their team as the little guy. They've little to no youth in their side. We've always been a huge club with huge responsibilities. We've always broken transfer records for big foreign players. We've hired a manager with an impecable youth record who's given debuts to several academy prospects already. This all seems to stem from the fact we've sold Danny Welbeck, after he requested to leave, which has sent a few select people into a completely unreasonable, perspectiveless nosedive.

Though if you feel that way, you feel that way. It's a shame you do.
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I love Danny as much as the next guy but I'm completely baffled by how everyone's lost their shit because he's gone.
 
Dante said:
That's a little harsh. When talking about family clubs, United always did seem like an extension of my own, given all the family members who supported them. Now it's like we've got a new stepdad and he smells a bit funny.

Believing things would never change was always going to be unrealistic, but you can't expect everyone to take to it just like that.
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Change in what respect? Players who were loyal to the club and have been brought up in the club have been let go before. Its always been that way. We all like to wax lyrical about the Class of 92 but nobody gives a shite about whatever happened to poor Terry Cooke
 
ArmchairCritic said:
I love Danny as much as the next guy but I'm completely baffled by how everyone's lost their shit because he's gone.
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Everyone hates their favorite players leaving, but trying to make it more poignant or significant by claiming it's a watershed in our approach to youth is nonsense. No one seems to care about giving Cleverely shit, or how selling Danny & Chicho means more chances for Wilson. Or indeed how we've brought in Blackett, or James, or Lingard this season...Or that all thats changed at the other end is we've made two big name signings. Not completely unlike when we signed RVN and Veron. Or Tevez and Nani and Anderson. None of this is without precident, it's just people trying to give their own feelings more dramatic weight.
 
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Mainoldo said:
Neither are they. Everton as a city doesn't exist.
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Yes. Being from the North West of England (Manchester, actually) and having had relatives who support Everton, and having also visited the Everton district of Liverpool, I am well aware of this geographical fact. Thanks.

Everton FC are from Everton, mind.
 
decorativeed said:
I am left wondering: where's the Manchester in United? It's gone in two seasons. Danny being the last of the bunch.
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Blackett is from Manchester is he not? And Giggs is still here as assistant manager. Danny wanted to leave because he wasn't getting chances. What exactly is the club supposed to do? Build the side around him to accomodate?

The great side of '92-93 had no one from Manchester in it either until Giggs came in, and even he's a technicality. In fact Blackett will have already played more league games this season than anyone in 92-93 who was born in Manchester did.
 
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This thread, Christ.
Do you honestly believe LVG with his history of bringing youth through will not do the same here. Our youth are at the heart of the club. But the reality is United always spent big when they needed to as well. It just so happens we need to spend very big now.
 
Rory 7 said:
This thread, Christ.
Do you honestly believe LVG with his history of bringing youth through will not do the same here. Our youth are at the heart of the club. But the reality is United always spent big when they needed to as well. It just so happens we need to spend very big now.
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Your not wrong. Last time I looked I was very excited about the quality of the new crop of young players. Let's see how clubs feel about coming to OT when they look on the team sheet and see Falcao, Di Maria, Mata, Rooney et al on the team sheet....
 
Shark said:
That's a bit of a poor point mate. You could say that about any young player vs a world class player close to decline and eventual retirement. I don't think anybody is worried anyway, we've money to buy replacements when the time comes as any big club does.
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I genuinely think Welbeck's all round game except for his goal scoring abilities is better than Rooneys already who I disagree is a 'world class' player. Yeah, goal scoring is the most important thing when you play as a striker hence why he is not good enough to start as a main man yet, even though I think he would have been a better option to partner one of RVP/Rooney and leave the goal scoring to them in a system with two strikers. I just think if Welbeck can and that's a big if, improve his finishing and ability to score goals on a regular basis, then he will be a better all round player and more useful as a teamplayer in the near future. Mind you, he hasn't got a good run of games in the striker position, except for that spell last year where he did very well when Rooney and RVP were both out injured, Rooney just doesn't seem to be improving in my opinion. Whether he is on a decline is another matter. What does he do better now than he did in 2010, except his improved ability in taking set pieces, for example? Welbecks finishing was a lot better than in previous years last season and hugely improved on his goal per minute ratio. If he can keep doing that, along with improving the already decent aspects of his game, I see no reason as to why he wouldn't be the superior player overall in 2-3 years.

It's not a poor point just because you don't agree with me. I agree with you on the replacement part, and I'm not worried, I just expressed the fact that I personally would have preferred him in the team over one of RVP or Rooney with an eye towards the long term. This argument is a bit pointless anyway because there's no way to tell as of now, it's just my guess that we've seen the best of both of Rooney/RVP and yet to see the best of Welbeck. No disrespect, you may indeed be right. Only time will tell.
 
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Am not a fan of massive signings myself but I will have to accept our dealings this summer and allow the new manager to get rest of the playing staff(youth) a varied education..
Not much for the transfers but I already like what I have seen from our 3 game... This is what rebuilding means, the job has to start from somewhere..it's not a magical trip but a step by step process...
 
Dante said:
That's a little harsh. When talking about family clubs, United always did seem like an extension of my own, given all the family members who supported them. Now it's like we've got a new stepdad and he smells a bit funny.

Believing things would never change was always going to be unrealistic, but you can't expect everyone to take to it just like that.
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As a United fan living in Canada, I'll never disrespect the way you and other locals feel about this. I can only say that I'm happy to see us making the moves to be competitive again. For what it's worth, I think Van Gaal will give a fair shot to Blackett and Wilson, and possibly to James and Pereira.
 
Allot of united fans moan at the glazers for not spending the cash, no matter what or what we do not need

United now spend the cash, the united fans moan we are now just another big club. Woodward cant win

Hmm I find interesting even barcelona splash the cash, who are known for bringing players through is well mind
 
Wow. Now I know why the term fan is short for fanatic. There is no pleasing some of us. LVG is damned if he does not buy and damned if he does.
" Just another big club ". Well I rather that than just another mid-table club.
Gone are the days when Utd was a GB & Ireland squad. Firstly these players are no longer good enough and secondly we are competing against teams that are using top players from around the world. How are we going to become competitive without also buying top foreign players?
Wellbeck and Cleverly seem like nice lads that do not get in trouble but are these players anyway near top class? Of course not and they have had enough years to prove their worth. They are around 23 years of age by that time their potential should have shined through already.
I understand that Manchester-born fans may have a problem with this but although that is where the team is based Utd is and has been for sometime an international brand. The majority of fans have not and will not ever go to OT yet they probably do not miss a game and some may even structure their lives around the playing of said games.
I realize on this forum there is a kind of competition to prove who is a better Red. Its kind of childish but I guess its a testosterone-fueled forum.
One thing for sure I don't want to return to the 70s and 80s. You see back then the "United Way" was to win Zero championships.
 
I really don't know how to feel about this summer. It's weird. We brought in some quality players but somehow I'm not really excited about this season, probably mainly due to the fact that non of the our signings so far have changed anything about the dire start we had but okay a lot of them are injured right now.

Yet I feel we have failed to strengthen in some key positions, mainly in the defensive department, and I can't shake the feeling that we are going to pay for this and it won't really matter that we have 3 great strikers if there is little to no service because the build up from the back isn't working and teams will just mark our attacking players out of the game if we can't build up from the back.

Naturally I hope I'm wrong though and that with time this team will show that the investment in quality players will pay off and that at least our attacking game will become exciting to watch again.
 
Welbeck and Cleverly have been given more than their fair share of chances and have failed. Get over it. This is the Premier League 2014. To win and be at the top you have to spend big money on big players and we've done exactly that. Deal with it. And we still have plenty of homegrown talent here too.
 
The opinions will soon change once we start winning football matches again. If we don't, then we'll see darker days.
 
I'm so glad with the signing of both Di Maria and Falcao, but it's hard to understand what LVG is trying to do here.

Welbeck - left for arsenal
Kagawa - left for Dortmund
Hernandez - loan to Real

Cleverley , Anderson, Young and Fellaini I believe are more of a deadwood compared to those 3.
 
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