Utd now just another big club | All "United losing identity" stuff here

[ArmchairCritic]

And we've seen how that's worked out. Let's see how many play when we start really playing properly.
Anyway, I have no issues with it. United are just another big club.

The sooner people realise this the better, it's been like that for quite a while too. Not having any of this we aren't promoting youth players nonsense though, we probably have done more in that regard than we did before SAF left.

 

[Enigma_87]

Rooney was given a shot straight away as a Striker, he has played only a handful of games on the wing or in midfield (mainly because he throws a strop at playing out of position). Had Welbeck been given a consistent chance upfront, he would have scored plenty of goals for us.

There is absolutely zero substance in that statement. Welbeck has proven over the last years that his game inside the box is very very poor at that level. His better qualities can be found elsewhere, maybe the wing at the end is the best position for him. At moments his finishing is appalling, not to mention his ball control in the box.

 

[Trizy]

Investing in players has become almost impossible with the inflated market in the past 5 years, take Luke Shaw for example. Just imagine how much a 19 year old Ronaldo would go for now a days? The old ways are dead unless you get a good deal which is a lottery with so many clubs looking for the same.

And the other half of the ''old'' United of youth players, look where that has gotten us? Cleverly, Keane and Welbeck.. non of which should be start in a title winning XI team, the former two are midtable at best. You cannot always get lucky with a class of 92 every decade. We've great youths coming through now in Wilson and Januzaj and they will be part of our plans so nothing has changed.

 

[DeMono]

 

[Enigma_87]

I meant I would have rather kept Welbeck, as in 2-3 years he will almost certainly be a better all round player than Rooney will be at that time. One of them is increasingly improving his game, whilst the other is regressing. Welbeck certainly won't be second fiddle to Giroud in my opinion, either. As other posters have also said, Welbeck actually had a good goal/minute ratio last season, quite similair to RVP himself. Forget his total record; it's about how they are performing now.

Rooney's talent is miles ahead of Welbeck's. Welbeck will never be at the same level as Rooney. Giroud is better finisher than Welbeck and is more suited for Arsenal as he offers different option in their attack. If Welbeck can find some place in that team probably it will again be on the wing.

 

[Speak]

The sooner people realise this the better, it's been like that for quite a while too. Not having any of this we aren't promoting youth players nonsense though, we probably have done more in that regard than we did before SAF left.

I don't think anyone is claiming we don't promote youngsters. Just that we aren't prioritising promoting youngsters over signing to achieve success today.

It's just not something that can be done when (like at most top clubs) the manager's job isn't all that safe.

 

[birdy2121]

All this moaning is a bit over the top. So we sold a forward that is surplus to the requirements and not good enough for LvG. We bring in Falcao who is one of the best forwards in the game at the moment, wanted by City, Real, Liverpool, Arsenal and some other top clubs and still people are moaning.

Yet no one wants to see Cleverley in the shirt again despite being a young lad and about the same age as Welbeck and moans and groans on missing on Kroos, Fabregas and the likes.

Talk about double standards.

He wanted to go to Real and ALSO wanted to be in the Champions league. But money talks and he is a footballing mercenary (just like I would be). But to say he chose you is the wrong side of clueless.

 

[Lynk]

Jamie Hackson with another shocker.

 

[justboy68]

Like if you weren't just another big club before.

Exactly.

 

[izec]

if we sold Rooney, people would moan. Last year when there were whispers of RvP leaving, some people werent happy that he could leave. Now that Welbeck leaves, some people are upset about it, despite being on the cards for months now. It was crystal clear that one of our strikers had to leave. If Chicharito would have come through the youth ranks, even worse than Welbeck, people would still moan about him being sold despite being shit. Get over it, we are a club not dependent on one player. We sold Butt, Phil, Beckham etc. It happens that youth products get sold, we are just another big club now. We wont have a manager for 26 years sitting on our bench anymore, it will be like every other club more or less short term solutions.

 

[Mockney]

Manchester United doesn't feel like Manchester United right now. They just seem like a club that happens to be based in the city. I'll give LvG a chance, but if this is the way it continues I'm not sure how I'll feel about it.

And this makes you a good fan?

There used to be something unique about United players. You'd always hear stories from England camps about how the Utd lads were a breed apart. Now we're just importing players who may well be top talents, but don't seemed to be vetted for personality the way Fergie used to do. I really hope this doesn't end in tears the ways van Gaal's stints at Barca and Bayern did.

I really don't like it. Even if we win a title, it won't feel like an achievement that was built in Manchester.

You realise Manchester United existed before Alex Ferguson and the Class of 92? and there was a big gap between that and the Busby Babes? Clubs go through different eras and different styles and different philosophies. You've just been incredibly spoiled by one.

 

[Enigma_87]

He wanted to go to Real and ALSO wanted to be in the Champions league. But money talks and he is a footballing mercenary (just like I would be). But to say he chose you is the wrong side of clueless.

Where did I say that he chose United over anybody? I've said that a lot of clubs showed interest in him.What are his motives is irrelevant since he's here now. My point was that we got a big name signing that was wanted by elite European clubs and people are still moaning about it.

 

[santeria13]

Rooney's talent is miles ahead of Welbeck's. Welbeck will never be at the same level as Rooney. Giroud is better finisher than Welbeck and is more suited for Arsenal as he offers different option in their attack. If Welbeck can find some place in that team probably it will again be on the wing.

You're not understanding what I'm saying. In 2-3 years, I think Welbeck will be the better player than Rooney and RVP are at that time, when both will likely be past it and Welbeck will be coming into his peak. I may be wrong but hey that's just my opinion.

 

[ArmchairCritic]

I don't think anyone is claiming we don't promote youngsters. Just that we aren't prioritising promoting youngsters over signing to achieve success today.

It's just not something that can be done when (like at most top clubs) the manager's job isn't all that safe.

When was that true under SAF bar the time he struck absolute gold with Giggs et al.?

 

[Dante]

And this makes you a good fan?

No, it just makes me the fan I am. I've invested in the club in a way that's different from you, evidently.

 

[Speak]

if we sold Rooney, people would moan. Last year when there were whispers of RvP leaving, some people werent happy that he could leave. Now that Welbeck leaves, some people are upset about it, despite being on the cards for months now. It was crystal clear that one of our strikers had to leave. If Chicharito would have come through the youth ranks, even worse than Welbeck, people would still moan about him being sold despite being shit. Get over it, we are a club not dependent on one player. We sold Butt, Phil, Beckham etc. It happens that youth products get sold, we are just another big club now. We wont have a manager for 26 years sitting on our bench anymore, it will be like every other club more or less short term solutions.

I think some people are struggling to get used to this idea. But that's the reality of it.

The next 20 years may see five or six managers. All with different views and methods, different favourites. Some will prioritise planning for the future, some wont. We may have a few world beaters come up at the same time, we may not, and can't expect or bank on it: Just like every other top club.

 

[Enigma_87]

You're not understanding what I'm saying. In 2-3 years, Welbeck will be the better player than Rooney and RVP are at that time, when both will likely be past it and Welbeck will be coming into his peak. I may be wrong but hey that's just my opinion.

You said Welbeck will be better than Rooney, not RvP after two years. Rooney then will be 30/31 and I still believe he'll be much better player than Welbeck even off his peak.

 

[Arruda]

I don't think these days clubs of United stature are suited to be the perfect grooming place for youngsters, except for the most talented of all. These days, the top 10 clubs in Europe won't think twice about spending over 30 million to buy a fully developed player to replace a good, but not world class, position in the field, even if the rest of the team is already magnificent. It's not like 20 years ago where top clubs boasted 3 or 4 stars and a host of other competent players to fill the remainder of the squad. Football became oligopolistic and talent is concentrated, giving very little room to give game time to youngsters. Even the likes of Barcelona and their terrific academy end up spending massively so that they can keep up with their competitors.

The game has changed, and you're in a terrific position to remain at the forefront of it. You can't have it all. You gotta play by the new rules.

Porto has 3 hugely talented players on loan, one each from Real, Atletico and Barcelona (Casemiro, Oliver Torres and Tello). The remainder of our team is also incredibly young, the youngest we have in 50 years. We can give these lads room to develop. The production line has moved to second-tier clubs, so that the top ones can boast the finished product.

 

[Winrar]

We can't keep everyone happy.

If abandoning our "identity" (?) helps us move forward in football, I'd gladly take that instead of giving too much chance to average players and fall behind like we did last season.

 

[Shark]

You're not understanding what I'm saying. In 2-3 years, Welbeck will be the better player than Rooney and RVP are at that time, when both will likely be past it and Welbeck will be coming into his peak. I may be wrong but hey that's just my opinion.

That's a bit of a poor point mate. You could say that about any young player vs a world class player close to decline and eventual retirement. I don't think anybody is worried anyway, we've money to buy replacements when the time comes as any big club does.

 

[santeria13]

You said Welbeck will be better than Rooney, not RvP after two years. Rooney then will be 30/31 and I still believe he'll be much better player than Welbeck even off his peak.

I edited to add RVP as I hadn't thought about him originally but he will also likely be past his best. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Time will tell which one of us is right, anyway.

 

[Speak]

When was that true under SAF bar the time he struck absolute gold with Giggs et al.?

I'll branch that to buying British talent or British players in general. Not just promoting.
A manager who knows he'll be here for a long time will invest in players from that country if he can, because those are the guys who'll stick around. Managers who need to succeed today in order to possibly be here tomorrow will go for whoever does the job best.

Sir Alex definitely looked at nationality of players differently to how many other top managers do, partly because he could afford to. In my opinion anyway.

Plus the fact that Van Gaal sees Welbeck (as an example) just as a 23 year old forward competing for a key position, and not as a local fan of the club who he's seen quite literally grow up in the club, and who he likes on a personal level.

 

[Walrus]

I agree with the majority of the OP. The club really seems to be struggling to "get it right" in recent years - either we shamelessly ignore enormous gaps in the squad, or we sign random luxury players that we dont need, or in this case, both.

I am in the minority of fans who actually thinks that the core of our team and our youngsters are/were capable of improving and getting us back to the top, under the guidance of the right manager. There were problems which needed addressing - such as with Shaw and Herrera, but the whole Falcao deal (and to an extent, Di Maria even) seem not only completely out of character for the club, but rather unnecessary. I can see why in Di Maria the club wanted a real marque signing, but there is no doubt we overpaid and really he isnt the commanding CB or CM that we could have truly done with.

Falcao though? After LVG talks about an unbalanced squad, having too many strikers/AMs? We get rid of Welbeck, Hernandez and Kagawa so we can loan in a mercenary for a year at a cost of something like £20m? And pay another £40m if we want him beyond that? I would sooner keep Welbeck and give Januzaj/Wilson some more gametime to boot.

In defence we have signed Rojo and Blind - two relatively cheap, young players, putting them pretty much on the same page as the rest of our defence which everyone is so content to call inadequate? If we signed a true first choice CB, on the level of a Vidic or Kompany then fair enough, but how do we know that Rojo or Blind are actually going to turn out any better than Smalling, Jones or Evans? We dont, and you are kidding yourself if you claim otherwise.


I dont mean to sound so negative about this transfer window as I am pleased we havent spent another two months being teased about Fabregas and Kroos (Vidal?) only to end up pretty much empty handed, but our transfer policy under Woodward just doesnt strike me as being that well thought out, I dont want to see us turn into another Man City or Chelsea filling a team with overpriced mercenaries. That doesnt mean I dont want some quality players, but these should be good players that have been scouted and identified as adding something to the team, not just "Oh world class player x is available?! SIGN HIM!!"

 

[ArmchairCritic]

Louis Van Gaal the man who said he dreamt of Barcelona having a completely homegrown XI win the Champions League and you guys are worried he's not going to push youth because we signed Falcao? This whole thread is because we sold Welbeck and signed Falcao FFS, and I love Danny to bits.

 

[ArmchairCritic]

I'll branch that to buying British talent or British players in general. Not just promoting.
A manager who knows he'll be here for a long time will invest in players from that country if he can, because those are the guys who'll stick around. Managers who need to succeed today in order to possibly be here tomorrow will go for whoever does the job best.

Sir Alex definitely looked at nationality of players differently to how many other top managers do, partly because he could afford to. In my opinion anyway.

Well the modern British player is also a lot more detached from reality than their foreign counterparts if you want to get into lazy stereotypes. There is no loyalty in Football, it's a myth.

 

[birdy2121]

This attitude is why we're in the mess we're in. It's not a sustainable model for a club that must be challenging for trophies every season, the game has changed and if you don't invest and pay big money for the best players then you will fall. I'm delighted the club is not stubbornly sticking to a fantasy philosophy, and we will still blood great youngsters from our academy such as Januzaj and Wilson.

Your probably right and I guess its why the top end of the game has become so unpalatable to so many people. Man Utd were built on players vetted for personality by SAF. They had to be fighters/winners and have skill too. We now could become a club who lacks soul like Chelsea and City who I have sneered at for this reason for a while. If we become a club full of top players who dont want to play and dont really care about what it means to play for a club that has a great history and tradition and are more interested in sulking about birthday cake to get a pay rise. I would seriously rather be 7th and not paying an idiots wages who earns more in a week than most in the stadium earn in a year.

Yes football is about passion, but for me there are limits to the price of success and although we are NOT their yet we are showing what i would call worrying signs.

 

[Speak]

Well the modern British player is also a lot more detached from reality than their foreign counterparts if you want to get into lazy stereotypes.

What lazy stereotypes?

 

[Speedicut75]

Jamie Hackson with another shocker.

Wasn't this the same man who was recently droning on about the necessity of UTD buying Vidal, couching his argument in the statement that "Can UTD afford not to sign Vidal?" In fact, he's advocated us spending when it looked like we wouldn't, and now we have he finds the next brickbat to use against us, and suggests we've abandoned our youth policy.

 

[The Red Thinker]

Jamie Hackson with another shocker.

He's well on his way to another long ban at OT. He has an anti-United agenda. That's become very clear this window.

 

[Lynk]

Wasn't this the same man who was recently droning on about the necessity of UTD buying Vidal, couching his argument in the statement that "Can UTD afford not to sign Vidal?" In fact, he's advocated us spending when it looked like we wouldn't, and now we have he finds the next brickbat to use against us, and suggests we've abandoned our youth policy.

Spot on.


That and saying Di Maria had no plans to have a medical while he was on a plane to Manchester.

 

[Enigma_87]

We can't keep everyone happy.

If abandoning our "identity" helps us move forward in football, I'd gladly take that instead of giving too much chance to average players and fall behind like we did last season.

yes, because our "identity" was always only towards the youth. It's not like Fergie didn't brake the transfer record couple of times.

It's not like we didn't bring Cantona, Keane, Stam, Yorke, Ince, Veron, RvN, Rooney, Ferdinand, Cole etc over the years.

It's not like we didn't bring in a lot of players in 07 as well for Hargreaves, Nani, Anderson, Tevez, Kuszczak etc.

Yes, we had a class of 92 and that has reduced our spending in key positions because some of those players turned out to be one of a century type of players, but it's not like the other backbone of the team hasn't been brought in and we didn't pay hefty sums for that.

We have always brought in young players, it won't stop just because we've decided to spend some money out of the hundreds of millions of the profits the clubs makes each year to get back in the position it should be.

Ridiculous thread really.

 

[Someone]

Fergie's ability to bring so much success without spending much is something he should be proud of, but at the end of the day where did the money go?

Is it really something to be proud of allowing the galzers to make so much money with spending on world class players? what's in it for the club or the fans? telling everyone else that we're better than them?

So now that the club is finally benefiting from the money it generates we've suddenly lost our identity? would you all feel better if the money was spent on the glazers? would that make us better than everyone else?

 

[mazhar13]

To be honest, there's no such thing as a "unique" club in the sense that a club does things in a unique manner. This is just for marketing and to entice fans to follow them.

In my view, there are two sorts of clubs:

1. Clubs that spend money all the time to get players at or close to their prime. (Man. City, Real Madrid, Chelsea, PSG)
2. Clubs that promote good young players when they come up and show themselves capable to do so. (Roma, Man. Utd. Bayern Munich, Barcelona, Arsenal, Liverpool, Atletico Madrid, Borussia Dortmund, AC Milan, Marseille, etc.

In this case, no we're not really "unique." We do our work sensibly and not throw money around when we have young players who can make it into the first team. Same goes for Barcelona, Bayern Munich, etc. (All of this depends on the football staff, of course.)

 

[ArmchairCritic]

What lazy stereotypes?

I read your post as intimating keeping a British core was important because they are more likely to stick around because they are erm British, might have been a bit of reach on my part. I guess the point I was trying to make is it really doesn't matter about nationality now. Sometimes a player just fits in at a club, look at Evra, he understands United better than most players and he nearly left a few times.

 

[birdy2121]

Well the modern British player is also a lot more detached from reality than their foreign counterparts if you want to get into lazy stereotypes. There is no loyalty in Football, it's a myth.

There is SOME loyalty left but allot less than 20 years ago, Welbeck i dont think would ever had have asked for a move if he was paid a fair wage and felt needed. Vincent Kompany at Man City the same he is loyal to the club and has never tried to play them in public.

But i agree the examples are less and less and its for this reason I agree with Joey Barton (for once) on the way football mirrors some sad aspects of society. When you look at the decline of loyalty across the board in peoples marriages, to their friends, and in some cases parents. Its hard not to agree with philosopher Barton that there now are more money orientated and selfish people in the world today.

 

[m1y2]

Oh, do feck off! I'm done with United's version of the 'Mes que in club' bullshit. Look where it brought us last season. "The United way, the United way... Give the (clueless) manager time... Play Welbeck, Cleverley, Evans (and similar shite which is partly the reason why we're shit because we're developing average players for the first team"

Suffice to say, we finished seventh.

And the year before first so shut it. In every team there should be some kind of balance the word van Gaals like to use. Yet he imbalanced the team with selling our only pacey technically competent striker to our rival who is gonna finish above us. But lets not be desperate we have Falcao so we will probably win the Europa league next time we get to it.. I don't see many REDs in our team who I d really love as they love the club, rather bunch of mercenaries. And dont get me wrong I am glad we offload some players as well as for the incomers

 

[Fbh112]

I agree with the majority of the OP. The club really seems to be struggling to "get it right" in recent years - either we shamelessly ignore enormous gaps in the squad, or we sign random luxury players that we dont need, or in this case, both.

I am in the minority of fans who actually thinks that the core of our team and our youngsters are/were capable of improving and getting us back to the top, under the guidance of the right manager. There were problems which needed addressing - such as with Shaw and Herrera, but the whole Falcao deal (and to an extent, Di Maria even) seem not only completely out of character for the club, but rather unnecessary. I can see why in Di Maria the club wanted a real marque signing, but there is no doubt we overpaid and really he isnt the commanding CB or CM that we could have truly done with.

Falcao though? After LVG talks about an unbalanced squad, having too many strikers/AMs? We get rid of Welbeck, Hernandez and Kagawa so we can loan in a mercenary for a year at a cost of something like £20m? And pay another £40m if we want him beyond that? I would sooner keep Welbeck and give Januzaj/Wilson some more gametime to boot.

In defence we have signed Rojo and Blind - two relatively cheap, young players, putting them pretty much on the same page as the rest of our defence which everyone is so content to call inadequate? If we signed a true first choice CB, on the level of a Vidic or Kompany then fair enough, but how do we know that Rojo or Blind are actually going to turn out any better than Smalling, Jones or Evans? We dont, and you are kidding yourself if you claim otherwise.


I dont mean to sound so negative about this transfer window as I am pleased we havent spent another two months being teased about Fabregas and Kroos (Vidal?) only to end up pretty much empty handed, but our transfer policy under Woodward just doesnt strike me as being that well thought out, I dont want to see us turn into another Man City or Chelsea filling a team with overpriced mercenaries. That doesnt mean I dont want some quality players, but these should be good players that have been scouted and identified as adding something to the team, not just "Oh world class player x is available?! SIGN HIM!!"

Good post, enjoyed reading and really well balanced and explained. Agree with pretty much everything said. The latter is a big fear, you don't want to see your team become just a bunch of mercenaries. Important to feel at even a small level connected to the players and feel that they are committed to the club. Things aren't so insular now, the club is more open and it isn't such a fortress as under Ferguson. Wonder if outside influences such as the media will have more effect and it more likely for events/troubles be reported. A calm and well controlled dressing room is important.

 

[ArmchairCritic]

There is SOME loyalty left but allot less than 20 years ago, Welbeck would never have asked for a move is he was paid a fair wage and felt needed. Vincent Kompany at Man City will not jump ship he is loyal to the club and has never tried to play them in public.

But the examples are less and less and its for this reason I agree with Joey Barton (for once) on the way football mirrors society. When you look at loyalty across the board in peoples marriages, to their friends, and in some cases parents. People now are more money orientated and selfish in their lives.

Loads of murmurs about Welbeck being ready to leave since April. Of course Football mirrors society because footballers are human beings that are also part of errr society.

 

[Mainoldo]

I agree with the majority of the OP. The club really seems to be struggling to "get it right" in recent years - either we shamelessly ignore enormous gaps in the squad, or we sign random luxury players that we dont need, or in this case, both.

I am in the minority of fans who actually thinks that the core of our team and our youngsters are/were capable of improving and getting us back to the top, under the guidance of the right manager. There were problems which needed addressing - such as with Shaw and Herrera, but the whole Falcao deal (and to an extent, Di Maria even) seem not only completely out of character for the club, but rather unnecessary. I can see why in Di Maria the club wanted a real marque signing, but there is no doubt we overpaid and really he isnt the commanding CB or CM that we could have truly done with.

Falcao though? After LVG talks about an unbalanced squad, having too many strikers/AMs? We get rid of Welbeck, Hernandez and Kagawa so we can loan in a mercenary for a year at a cost of something like £20m? And pay another £40m if we want him beyond that? I would sooner keep Welbeck and give Januzaj/Wilson some more gametime to boot.

In defence we have signed Rojo and Blind - two relatively cheap, young players, putting them pretty much on the same page as the rest of our defence which everyone is so content to call inadequate? If we signed a true first choice CB, on the level of a Vidic or Kompany then fair enough, but how do we know that Rojo or Blind are actually going to turn out any better than Smalling, Jones or Evans? We dont, and you are kidding yourself if you claim otherwise.


I dont mean to sound so negative about this transfer window as I am pleased we havent spent another two months being teased about Fabregas and Kroos (Vidal?) only to end up pretty much empty handed, but our transfer policy under Woodward just doesnt strike me as being that well thought out, I dont want to see us turn into another Man City or Chelsea filling a team with overpriced mercenaries. That doesnt mean I dont want some quality players, but these should be good players that have been scouted and identified as adding something to the team, not just "Oh world class player x is available?! SIGN HIM!!"

We had 4 strikers now we have 3! Sounds like an improvement in balance. We had numerous number 10's now we have Mata and Rooney (1st team). We needed a centre midfielder we brought Blind. People moaned about our wingers we got Di Maria. We lost a lot of experience at the back bout if we revert back to 4 at the back we have 2 centre backs for the left and the right. No one called Komany world class when City signed him.

Can us fans stop moaning we have had a productive window.

For the next one we will probably identify a right back and another centre midfielder.

 

[Mockney]

No, it just makes me the fan I am. I've invested in the club in a way that's different from you, evidently.

Fair enough, but you seem to have invested in a very era specific way that was never practically going to last forever. Even the Babes & the Fledglings had a gulf of differing approaches between them.