Yea and during those league title wins in 2011, barca gave fergie and phelan a reality check, yet they went out and signed ashley young when the team needed 2 CM players.
Utd now just another big club | All "United losing identity" stuff here
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Yea and during those league title wins in 2011, barca gave fergie and phelan a reality check, yet they went out and signed ashley young when the team needed 2 CM players.
We have spent silly money on big names and not really in the right areas of the pitch. Hummels and Vidal would have been better signings for me than Di Maria and would have combined been not far off the £60m we paid Real Madrid.
As for your expletives, please kindly make a coherent argument or dont bother at all as swearing tells us nothing about your thought process in disagreeing.
This going around the 2 big players with positions we did not really need, which is the opposite
With Falcao we need him just has bad as the defence and midfield, just like Di Maria. If we look at our front players, RVP has been carrying a injury for a while, and at his current age we cannot rely on him this season or the next few years, despite rooney is captain, his form has been shocking, he has lost his pace and his first touch is pretty laboured, and he's been awful for a couple of years now, at the level united want to get to falcao is on another level. Let us not forget welbeck has been sold, and hernandez has been sent on loan, we need a striker. RVP and Rooney just lack that pace and power, falcao who I feel is better than both. And the front 2 need much better competition, for 352 falcao and di maria slot into the front positions much better than mata and RVP
On the wide positions and central, valencia and young are not good enough, kagwa has been sold, mata seems very one paced, janazaj does not seem to be getting games. With di maria, he alone with his pace and power is perfect playing behind the 2 strikers, or out wide.
So di Maria and Falcao are signings that just improve the level of united's quality, that has been lacking for a while now
This. It's a lazy opinion from Phelan. He conveniently forgets that we've moved on players in the past that don't cut the grade. While I loved Welbeck he wasn't going to get playing time behind RvP and Rooney let alone Falcao. It was the best for him to move for all involved and he chose Arsenal.
Phelan conveniently overlooks the fact that we've handed Wilson he's senior debut and that Evans, Fletcher and Blackett are all in the 1st team squad. Danny Welbeck is not and never was Mr Man Utd. Yes it's sad to see him go but he had ample chance in the 1st team. Youngsters will get their chances. Nothing has changed there.
A garbage proposition pollutes this thread.
Our identity is not broken. We gave our young English players plenty of chances, and hopefully a few of them now will eventually come through. But Welbeck and Cleverley just didn't do enough to justify giving them another 2-3 seasons to establish themselves for Manchester United.
As for protecting English players, which is the underyling hypothesis behind the criticism, we've given Rooney 10 years at Manchester United and we've done everything to make sure he remains at the club for the rest of his career, despite the obvious observation that he's regressed significantly over the last four seasons.
Our identity is not broken. We gave our young English players plenty of chances, and hopefully a few of them now will eventually come through. But Welbeck and Cleverley just didn't do enough to justify giving them another 2-3 seasons to establish themselves for Manchester United.
As for protecting English players, which is the underyling hypothesis behind the criticism, we've given Rooney 10 years at Manchester United and we've done everything to make sure he remains at the club for the rest of his career, despite the obvious observation that he's regressed significantly over the last four seasons.
Someone on the guardian made a great comment, which shows how contradicting the media are
Paul Hayward- United bringing in Falcao and selling off English talent is bad for national team.
Jim White - United's young English defenders arent good enough, drop them and buy Hummels.
Hmmm
Which shows, united cannot really win
What matters is, not what people think, but what is best for MUFC, not england
Paul Hayward- United bringing in Falcao and selling off English talent is bad for national team.
Jim White - United's young English defenders arent good enough, drop them and buy Hummels.
Hmmm
Which shows, united cannot really win
What matters is, not what people think, but what is best for MUFC, not england
Part of the us being imbalanced has to do with Blind being a relative unknown quality in defensive midfield (for us) and central defense. A lot of the negativity has to do with us being 7 points of the top. Had we made these purchases prior to the season starting very few would have been pessimistic. The only position really I see us weak in is central defense. But we don't know what the effect having a decent non-porous central midfield will have in terms of making our defenders perform better both individually and as a unit (hopefully if Herrera, Di Maria, Blind can keep more possession and keep things tidy) along with our first choice fullbacks/wingbacks (in Rafael and Shaw). Jones and Smalling in their time here have looked shaky so they'll have to step up. Ditto for Evans. Other than that the central midfield should, in theory, be ok. Let's see what these guys can do. We have a good coach with us as well in Van Gaal who can get the best out of these guys.
How about we wait and see? Things were arguably more unbalanced for us when van Persie lead us to the title. We lacked a winning mentality. The players had no urgency. No shame in being second best. It was obvious that a massive shift was needed. We got that. Some things people don't agree with (not getting a centre-back, selling Wellbeck) but on paper we are eons better than the sides we put out last season. We'll have to see how quickly these guys adjust. The broken identity thing literally came about with the sale of one player. People think we've always been getting hard bargains but that's clearly not true. Its just that this massive reshuffle came about as we had a whole bunch of players who went over the hill at the exact same time. Can't wait for the 14th to see what van Gaal does with the team. Having two world class players plus the injury returnees will give a massive boost to the side.
How about we wait and see? Things were arguably more unbalanced for us when van Persie lead us to the title. We lacked a winning mentality. The players had no urgency. No shame in being second best. It was obvious that a massive shift was needed. We got that. Some things people don't agree with (not getting a centre-back, selling Wellbeck) but on paper we are eons better than the sides we put out last season. We'll have to see how quickly these guys adjust. The broken identity thing literally came about with the sale of one player. People think we've always been getting hard bargains but that's clearly not true. Its just that this massive reshuffle came about as we had a whole bunch of players who went over the hill at the exact same time. Can't wait for the 14th to see what van Gaal does with the team. Having two world class players plus the injury returnees will give a massive boost to the side.
As we always knew, with LVG if your good enough your in, if not your out.
I like Welbeck, think he could do a job, especially if we had Europe as 4th choice striker. But we don't and we need to get back on top whilst competing with other clubs so we needed to clear out.
We can't say these players weren't given the opportunity under Fergie or Moyes and none of them really kicked on and made themselves counted.
I like Welbeck, think he could do a job, especially if we had Europe as 4th choice striker. But we don't and we need to get back on top whilst competing with other clubs so we needed to clear out.
We can't say these players weren't given the opportunity under Fergie or Moyes and none of them really kicked on and made themselves counted.
Phelan's talking rubbish we've given many homegrown players their chance some step up some don't. LVG has been brought in to do a job he has looked around and seen those players he doesn't think are part of his rebuilding some are lads who have come through the system some we have bought.
Jason Cundy is having an absolute meltdown on the sports bar, comedy gold what a clown.
Our identity was stolen in May 2005.
None of these journalist clowns cared then, feck the lot of them tbh
None of these journalist clowns cared then, feck the lot of them tbh
feck sake, this is such reactionary, overemotional, over romanticised bullshit. We still have some of the best youth teams going and they'll get every chance, we have LVG managing us who will ensure success in the short term as well as long term.
This. Its not like we have stopped producing talented youngsters. If you are good enough you will get a chance. This has been seen under LVG.
Phelan 
The more I think of it, the more I realize how ridiculous it is. Football is ever changing. The club is bigger than anyone, but at the end of the day it's the people who work for it who create their own version of our identity and the Manchester United way. Over two decades ago it would have sounded insane that we could be a PLC (or, as pointed out here, at the hands of an American business family). But it happened. Many of us only know one Manchester United and that's Alex Ferguson's. But there have been other versions, with other managers. And now we've got someone else on the helm, ready to update United to his own version. Hopefully he makes it a good one...
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True enough. Only this morning, it was called "football".
And if he's successful, a whole new generation will grow up only knowing that, just as a whole one died never seeing Fergie's. We're a finite point in time people, whiling away our time in the most palatable way possible to distract us from the cosmic unimportance of our existence. Nothing really matters. That's the spirit! GGMU!
Mike Phelan seems to be forgetting about the amount of home grown talent Van Gaal has given chances to. If they are not up to his standards or are unable to exist in his philosophy then we can not hold onto them for sentimental reasons. Times change and we do not want to get left behind by other clubs who are always evolving and adapting to the modern game.
Pardon me for having high standards. Must have forgot we support Stoke. This is Manchester United and Welbeck wasn't good enough for us.
Hummels wasn't for sale at any price, and we seem to have passed on Vidal because of injury concerns.
Di Maria is one of the very best in the world, I suspect you'll come to like him.
All summer I've been hearing how we need to buy wc players, now we've done that I'm hearing about us loosing our identity and becoming just another big club. Whatever club do there are people moaning. So we should stick to our home grown players and the 'United way' even if our home grown players aren't good enough.
OP says how he misses Fergie and what has he done. Fergie retired, we're a different club which has sadly become stuck in time and now we need to invest and get ourselves back to the CL. And suddenly LVG is the wrong man cause he's buying players and he is doing that cause our team is not that good, to say the least.
We're not a some kind of special club anymore cause we're buying wc players...
Ridiculous all in all.
We've spent money on midfield, defence and one striker.... What right areas we haven't spend?
Hummels wasn't for sale and it seems there were some problems with Vidal deal. It's nice when you wish some players would sign for us but not every player can come..
OP says how he misses Fergie and what has he done. Fergie retired, we're a different club which has sadly become stuck in time and now we need to invest and get ourselves back to the CL. And suddenly LVG is the wrong man cause he's buying players and he is doing that cause our team is not that good, to say the least.
We're not a some kind of special club anymore cause we're buying wc players...
Ridiculous all in all.
We've spent money on midfield, defence and one striker.... What right areas we haven't spend?
Hummels wasn't for sale and it seems there were some problems with Vidal deal. It's nice when you wish some players would sign for us but not every player can come..
If we have to metaphorically sell our soul to win and in turn end up buying mercenary players to become keep up with the oils rich Jones's next door then winning in my opinion is not everything. Football like the banks did will eventually implode. The sheiks will move on, but we will always be Manchester Utd.
I love winning and hate loosing but that said I would rather come 4/5th with a team full of players passionate about the history of the club and what the shirt represents rather that get artificially excited that some over paid mercenary team has come 2nd in the league.
I am sure these feelings are felt more keenly by fans who have been brought up by parents who were on the terraces in the dark days and not the franchise glory hunters that global brands attract.
I love winning and hate loosing but that said I would rather come 4/5th with a team full of players passionate about the history of the club and what the shirt represents rather that get artificially excited that some over paid mercenary team has come 2nd in the league.
I am sure these feelings are felt more keenly by fans who have been brought up by parents who were on the terraces in the dark days and not the franchise glory hunters that global brands attract.
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This - few clubs get a batch like ours the past 2 decades - I can only think of Ajax which bore fruit in '95 and Barcelona. The normal thing, which we and most clubs have done since WW2 when planes became a thing, is to mix imported stars with a few local lads. We're still doing that, unlike say Chelsea or City.
We've been doing ti for years - Cantona, Cole, Yorke, Rio, RvP, etc - one player who wasn't good enough (yet) to oust our star strikers leaving doesn't mean our identity has gone. Of course because he was a manc it's sad, but like mark Hughes he may return later in his career. If you look carefully there is one area the class of '92 never excelled in and that's striker -we've regularly bought our main strikers (law, etc).
Plus we lost a year of transition with moyesegeddon, which is part of the reason we have spent so much in so little time. The other part is that in his last 2 - 3 years Fergie under-invested in the squad (whether due to his own faith in his ability or the purse-strings still tight due to loans beign high at the time). We held on to some players too long and now we have to fix that our decline rapidly.
We could go the Liverpool route where the declined steadily in the 90s instead of adapting of course, jsut to say our whole team is local like Bilbao...
United's identity was broken when it hired a sub-standard coach who brought in a player not good enough to play for an elite team. Hiring LVG and bringing in top-tier talent to replace mediocre players makes this squad consistent with United's identity.
We've been spoilt by the babes and by the '92 lot. Otherwise we've never had consistent success with using homegrown talents.
People need to feck off with this shit. Would you rather we never won the league or any cups again? Rather we stayed out of Europe?
Will all due respect, that is some of the worst holier than thou bullshit I've read for a long time.
I presume you and your family have been to every United match we've ever played?
People need to feck off with this shit. Would you rather we never won the league or any cups again? Rather we stayed out of Europe?
Will all due respect, that is some of the worst holier than thou bullshit I've read for a long time.
I presume you and your family have been to every United match we've ever played?
So it was Moyes/Fellaini who broke United's identity? Because Sir Alex NEVER EVER bought a player that wasn't good enough to play for an elite team? The identity isn't broken. I would say it is possible being re-shaped though. It doesn't look like we are going to sit by while Madrid, City, Chelsea, Barca, PSG etc etc all spend big to get quality. Hopefully we still try and give some young players a chance. I'm devastated we lost Welbeck, but it didn't break our identity.
My point is that I think it's nonsense to posit that bringing in players to improve a squad that finished 7th last year is somehow breaking United's identity, which some pundits are saying.
It is as ludicrous a position as some pundits took that United lost its specialness when it fired a clearly incompetent manager-who demonstrated his inability to manage at this level with his tactics, man management and yes, his atrocious summer transfer window in less than a season.
It's the same post as in "Is Winning Everything?" Not sure why we need to be told twice.
What did Jason Cundy have to say?
Phil Neville and Nicky Butt were squad players and happy to play that role. Phil, especially was extremely versatile and can fit anywhere in defence and midfield, so he got enough game time
Can't believe that Wellbeck joining Arsenal is the crime it's being portrayed as.
British players need to improve. It makes no sense maintaining a British identity if the players coming through are not good enough. Those of you who are upset should complain about our youth system. Maybe we need to hire some Spanish or German youth coaches.
I don't know why Arsenal bought Wellbeck but if it is a stop gap measure then, wellbeck may find himself on their bench when Giroud recovers.
I don't know why Arsenal bought Wellbeck but if it is a stop gap measure then, wellbeck may find himself on their bench when Giroud recovers.
People are really exaggerating this whole "United have lost their way" idea. After the class of 92 we've had Fletcher, Oshea and Brown who were at a very good level for the PL and have contributed to the success of the club but by no means were they world beaters. Our academy is not La Massia or the Ajax academy churning quality players on a regular basis. In my opinion if a player is good enough then it doesnt matter his nationality and age he would've earned a place at Manchester United. Conversely if a player is not good enough it shouldnt matter if hes home grown, English, British or any nationality they should go.
Danny's case is one that is regrettable to some extent but the boy has ambition and did not want to sit around waiting for RvP/Rooney/Falcao to have injuries or something to get a chance. The wrong thing to do would've been to force him to stay that would've killed his career but now he has a chance at Arsenal he must prove himself. He will always be a Manchester United product.
LvG was brought in to focus on the first team he has stated this from the very beginning. I hope that if his first year is successful and will be given a chance to work with the youth to implement his philosophy. The academy needs to be revamped, the way the young lads train needs to change, our scouting needs to improve as there is no reason for us not to compete with Barcelona for example. I am certain the club will continue to believe in youth Januzaj and hopefully Wilson will show some bright moments this season and continue to grow with the club.
Danny's case is one that is regrettable to some extent but the boy has ambition and did not want to sit around waiting for RvP/Rooney/Falcao to have injuries or something to get a chance. The wrong thing to do would've been to force him to stay that would've killed his career but now he has a chance at Arsenal he must prove himself. He will always be a Manchester United product.
LvG was brought in to focus on the first team he has stated this from the very beginning. I hope that if his first year is successful and will be given a chance to work with the youth to implement his philosophy. The academy needs to be revamped, the way the young lads train needs to change, our scouting needs to improve as there is no reason for us not to compete with Barcelona for example. I am certain the club will continue to believe in youth Januzaj and hopefully Wilson will show some bright moments this season and continue to grow with the club.
damned if we do, damned if we dont.
If we hadnt of signed Di Maria or Falcao we'd have been criticised for 'living in the past' - we'd need to 'spend to compete', 'lack of spending is a sign of lack of planning'.
If we hadnt of signed Di Maria or Falcao we'd have been criticised for 'living in the past' - we'd need to 'spend to compete', 'lack of spending is a sign of lack of planning'.
The overwhelmingly prevailing view all summer was that we needed to get a world class centre half like Hummels or Benatia, who would presumably replace one of our young centre halves. It's rank hypocrisy to then criticise United for doing something similar up front.
The media coverage smacks of needing to hammer United no matter what. Many journalists who are now criticising us for spending have previously criticised us for being skinflints. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
The reality is simple. We've sold a player with a one in five career record at club level. We've also loaned out a bench player. To replace that in the short term, we've purchased a world class player with a three in four record. Then, when he's past his peak, along with our two other senior strikers, step forward Wilson and Januzaj.
Nostalgia has clouded one key thing - Welbeck wasn't good enough for us. He may turn out to be a great player at Arsenal, but it wasn't going to happen for him here.
Next time someone questions United's loss of values, ask them what they think of our centre backs.
The media coverage smacks of needing to hammer United no matter what. Many journalists who are now criticising us for spending have previously criticised us for being skinflints. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
The reality is simple. We've sold a player with a one in five career record at club level. We've also loaned out a bench player. To replace that in the short term, we've purchased a world class player with a three in four record. Then, when he's past his peak, along with our two other senior strikers, step forward Wilson and Januzaj.
Nostalgia has clouded one key thing - Welbeck wasn't good enough for us. He may turn out to be a great player at Arsenal, but it wasn't going to happen for him here.
Next time someone questions United's loss of values, ask them what they think of our centre backs.
The comments kinda pissed me off. Especially in a season in which a player like Blackett is clearly being given a run in the first team. While others like Lingard, James, Wilson an Januzaj are clearly in the managerial plans for this season. With a player like Keane and Powell farmed out for their own benefit in good EPL loans. A far cry from last season when under a British manager only Januzaj got a look in. His reaction is so knee jerk. Van Gaal has always been a long term thinking manager. There is no doubt the will put our youth first before any purchase. Especially if they are talented enough to make it here long term.
We didn't sell Pogba. In the end we regret to let him go. I don't have any guts we sold Ravel anyway. His attitude is too much for the club.
I believe so. But I didn't know how bad it was in red cafe forum