Utd now just another big club | All "United losing identity" stuff here

[fallengt]

Where are people getting this information from?

He was told he can leave, and obviously he took up that option. Of course he probably had the option to stick around, but he's not going to work day in day out with a manager who's told him to leave because he doesn't want him.

LvG said it himself it was up to players to decide, he only told them who in his main plan. Obviously, Welbeck was the 3rd option behind RvP/Rooney and he wanted more.

Falcao was a late signing or "would be hard to ignore" - LvG, Welbeck rumour was flying around after US tour. So there must be some truth to it.

 

[noodlehair]

We've brought in players that fit this criteria, but one thing that's different from previous times is that we don't have a successful core to work around.

Spending this amount of money isn't unique, we spent 113 million in the 2006/7 season (taking into account inflation). It's the last time we tried to buy a midfield.

I don't see selling Welbeck as mimicking City/Real. He wanted to play first team football, even before we got Falcao he was trying for a move. From United's unsentimental perspective, he was also one of the only players we could make some money selling.

I wouldn't really disagree (not sure on the £113m figure but can't be bothered to research). When we spent that money though, it was on Hargreaves, Anderson, Nani and Tevez. Tevez aside not exactly players who were crucial to the side's success. If anything Nani and anderson were meant to be players the current team could be built around, but obviously that's where it hasn't really worked out.

Welbeck was never trying for a move. Or at best there's no actual evidence of this. There ismore evidence that "unstentimental perspective" is what happened, and his move was somewhat forced.

This is the part I don't like, because, even leaving aside the whole identity argument, it just doesn't give me any confidence in the club.

When it comes to this identity argument. it's not just down to that. Change is always uneasy but people want to be confident in the change. @Mockney has a slight point with saying people just liked Danny Welbeck, but the reason people like players is because they think they're good. Clumsily fumbling a player who people rate out of the door to a rival, apart from anything else, comes across as a quite stupid and alarming thing to do. I mean where it's left my perspective is that not only is there no long term plan, but the short term plan is at best up for some serious questioning. We look like we have no idea what we're doing. I mean it's like being a flight attendant on a concorde, and noticing that the captain has been replaced by some random person who's just pressing loads of buttons in the hope something useful happens. I might be slightly concerned that this person is new, but I'd be much more concerned about whether they're going to end up killing me.

 

[Mockney]

Where are people getting this information from?

He was told he can leave, and obviously he took up that option. Of course he probably had the option to stick around, but he's not going to work day in day out with a manager who's told him to leave because he doesn't want him.

It was reported widely, notably by Daniel Taylor, both at the end of last season and the beginning of this.

http://oldtraffordfaithful.com/dann...ster-united-according-to-reliable-journalist/

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/may/25/danny-welbeck-manchester-united-louis-van-gaal

And then again, recently, before the MK Dons game. A week before we were even linked with Falcao. Who by all accounts was signed pretty last minute because he "became available." (RE: His Madrid move fell through)

 

[0161_UNITED]

I'm sorry but this is all nonsense. Times have changed and to win and compete at the top now you need world class players in your team. We have had very few of those in the past 3/4 years and over those years it has shown.

We still have our identity. We are not Real Madrid. Our academy is still one of the best in the world and we will continue to promote youth here. LVG like Sir Alex is a big advocate of that. Our identity just needs to change slightly. That's all. You need that balance in 2014 of home grown talent and world class outside talent to succeed.

Agreed. This is all absolute nonsense. We're not even changing our identity. It doesn't even need to be altered slightly. We've always supplemented our team with top talent. George Best was purchased. Denis Law too. Bryan Robson. Cantona. Club legends. People must think the success of the class of 92 comes along everyday.

Moaning that the club isn't special anymore because we moved on Danny Welbeck and bought Angel Di Maria? We moved on Nicky Butt and Phil Neville! We bought Juan Veron for a British record. And that was a long time ago. This isn't some new phenomenon. It's just that we've either been financially constrained because of the leveraged buyout, or because of Fergie's frugality in his latter years, that we haven't seen this type of activity in the past 5 years or so.

Moaning that we sold Kagawa? We sold bloody Jaap Stam!

I've no idea what argument some people might want to make that we're not special. What makes the club special to me is the history, the matches I remember, the ups and downs, the buzz as I walked up Sir Matt Busby Way to a match, singing in a pub with my mates, and the friends I made along the way watching United.

Not a special club anymore because we spent a shed load on players we desperately need to reinvigorate our squad and heartbroken because Danny Welbeck wanted to move to Arsenal? Have a word with yourself.

 

[noodlehair]

Rossi was bought in the same window as Rooney, a year after Saha and three years after RvN. He wasn't "pushed down the roster by record signings" - he just didn't make the roster because they were already there.

He also left despite Fergie stating he wanted to keep him, while Welbeck was being touted around to clubs before the club had even discussed it with him.

I'm not sure where Rossi comes into this to be honest.

 

[Randall Flagg]

Would you rather we persisted with Cleverley and Welbeck?!

Btw, Luke Shaw, Rafael and James Wilson say hi

welbeck for sure yes and I would have been happier to keep Cleverley as a squad player and maybe work on him to improve his confidence

What about the other three? Shaw was a Moyes signing effectively. Rafael is fairly established and we have no idea if Wilson will see any games or not

 

[noodlehair]

It was reported widely, notably by Daniel Taylor, both at the end of last season and the beginning of this.

http://oldtraffordfaithful.com/dann...ster-united-according-to-reliable-journalist/

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/may/25/danny-welbeck-manchester-united-louis-van-gaal

And then again, recently, before the MK Dons game. A week before we were even linked with Falcao. Who by all accounts was signed pretty last minute because he "became available." (RE:His Madrid move fell through)

Taylor was reporting that before Moyes left and then before the World Cup, while if you continue to believe the same sources, Welbeck was then willing to stay and fight for a place under Van Gaal, before the club decided to try and cash in on him.

It also doesn't really explain suddenly seeling him to a team we're battling for a top four spot with, when they're desperately short of a striker, an hour before the transfer deadline.

At best, presuming Welbeck did want out since before the World Cup, it looks like a piece of fumbling idiocy.

 

[#07]

Second part should read 'they need a new defence and they should sign Hummels', cos that's what all these people moaning about us signing Falcao have been saying. Last time I checked Hummels wasn't British but that's pundit logic for ya!

 

[Mockney]

Taylor was reporting that before Moyes left, while if you continue to believe the same sources, Welbeck was then willing to stay and fight for a place under Van Gaal, before the club decided to try and cash in on him.

Why wouldn't I? It seems fairly plausible. A lot of players probably wanted to see how things panned out under LVG before deciding their future. Vidic might even regret pissing off so early. Chicharito was doing the same thing. Or perhaps United were waiting to see who they could get in to replace Danny first. Or perhaps Danny and his agent were waiting for the best offers. There's plenty of scenarios that don't fit your "We just callously chucked out a young player, and thus completely betrayed our ethos" perspective.

Welbeck has every right to want to play regularly in his favored position at his age, so I don't blame him in the slightest. But blaming Van Gaal for it is nonsense too. If anything he did the more honorable thing by letting him go (and to the club he wanted, rather than the prefered Spurs loan) rather than forcing him to stick around here, stunting his development for our increasingly dwindling benefit.

We were never going to play him centrally. Not for years at least, even without Falcao. Arsenal are. So even if he does suddenly become a World Beater, it doesn't mean it wouldve definitely happened here.

 

[Siorac]

Chelsea have been around as they are since 2003 and City what, 2009 was it? When Mourinho was first at Chelsea while they were buying everyone in sight, we had a poor team and were relying on people like Djemba Djemba. We didn't get out of that by going on a lunatic revolving door spending spree. We bought young players like Rio, Rooney, Ronaldo, Vidic, Evra, etc. and built ourselves a team that ended up being the best in Europe..

Rio Ferdinand was 24 when we signed him - the same age as Blind and Rojo are now - and he was the world's most expensive defender at the time. We had serious defensive problems in 2001/02 and threw money at it in the summer.

Rooney, at 18, was the world's most expensive teenager of all time. Two other Manchester United signings have made the top ten since: Anderson in 2007 and Luke Shaw in 2014. Paying big money for a highly regarded British (or Irish) youngster is certainly nothing new. We broke the British transfer record for Roy Keane in 1993.

Vidic and Evra were 25 when we signed them. One year younger than Di María, same age as Ander Herrera, older than Blind or Rojo. They weren't gambles in terms of the price but we couldn't be sure that they would cut it at this level. Much like Blind and Rojo, though with inflation and desperation, they are obviously more expensive.

Even Ronaldo came for a relatively huge fee. In 2003, 12.25m was big money for an 18-year-old, even if we blew it out of the water a year later with the Rooney transfer.

It is true that we didn't sign all these players in ONE transfer window. But then again we didn't finish seventh in any of the previous seasons. Now here we are, after years of poor performance in the transfer market and after a horribly botched managerial appointment - we needed to do in one window what we usually do over several years. But we did what we always do: sign highly rated youngsters, plug some gaps with relatively inexpensive 24-25 year olds and making one or two really big signings.

Yes, Welbeck's gone. It doesn't represent a change in identity though. It merely shows that he didn't want to be a squad player and the management felt he didn't have enough in him to be first choice. Considering that after a season of playing Welbeck as one of the main strikers, Fergie went out and got both Kagawa and Van Persie in, it's not a great surprise.

 

[0161_UNITED]

This the same Mike Phelan who claimed he was responsible and ran the show in Fergie's later reign? Same Mike Phelan who's been out of a job since? Same Mike Phelan whose sole purpose these days seems to be to pop up on talksport once in awhile and comment on United?

Lost our identity? Get to feck. We've bloody rediscovered our identity.

 

[Oo0AahCantona]

if our Identity was for competiting for the top 4 trophy year in year out for a decade, im glad its been smashed to pieces. If we have youth products who are good enough, they will get games (see januzaj, blackett, wilson), and if they make a position there own fantastic. its up to the players we cant force a tom cleverely or zaha to become a mainstay in the side if there not good enough.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

You need that balance in 2014 of home grown talent and world class outside talent to succeed.

What home grown talent? It's been quite some time there has been a genuine 'world class' talent grown in England.

 

[Dominos]

It was reported widely, notably by Daniel Taylor, both at the end of last season and the beginning of this.

http://oldtraffordfaithful.com/dann...ster-united-according-to-reliable-journalist/

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/may/25/danny-welbeck-manchester-united-louis-van-gaal

And then again, recently, before the MK Dons game. A week before we were even linked with Falcao. Who by all accounts was signed pretty last minute because he "became available." (RE: His Madrid move fell through)

The stories of him wanting out were in the Moyes era. I remember a lot of journos backtracking on that sentiment once Moyes got sacked. Taylor's article says he was still contemplating leaving despite the change of manager, fair enough. We heard nothing of him wanting out all summer though, until it broke in the papers that he'd been told by LVG he wasn't wanted and could leave.

I think letting him join a top 4 rival is what's really gotten a lot of people. We finished 7th last year, we look absolutely dire in the opening few games and are already trailing our competitors and we've gone and solved Arsenal biggest weakness on deadline day. It's risky at best, humiliating at worst if come May we're outside the CL spots.

 

[noodlehair]

Why wouldn't I? It seems fairly plausible. A lot of players probably wanted to see how things panned out under LVG before deciding their future. Vidic might even regret pissing off so early. Chicharito was doing the same thing. Or perhaps United were waiting to see who they could get in to replace Danny first. Or perhaps Danny and his agent were waiting for the best offers. There's plenty of scenarios that don't fit your "We just callously chucked out a young player, and thus completely betrayed our ethos" perspective.

Welbeck has every right to want to play regularly in his favored position at his age, so I don't blame him in the slightest. But blaming Van Gaal for it is nonsense too. If anything he did the more honorable thing by letting him go (and to the club he wanted, rather than the prefered Spurs loan) rather than forcing him to stick around here, stunting his development for our increasingly dwindling benefit.

We were never going to play him centrally. Not for years at least, even without Falcao. Arsenal are. So even if he does suddenly become a World Beater, it doesn't mean it wouldn't definitely happened here.

Yes but Aside from all this ethos/identity stuff, selling a player who is rated by a lot of people (and fans) to a direct rival for a top four spot, is hardly going to inspire complete confidence in the club and its decision making

As I said above, personally it's made me feel very uneasy. The general consensus among the gossipers I've spoken to today (United fans or otherwise), is that the club has no fecking clue what it's doing.

Overall, if you'd told me in December last year that the club was going to change its approach to transfers completely and sign nearly £200m worth of players, I would expect to look at the squad now and see something that had been strengthened significantly and could compare to the likes of City/Chelsea. Instead, we have what looks like an imbalanced mess, and one of the players I thought was key to building a new team is playing for fecking Arsenal. I can't say I'm best pleased or particularly confident in this new direction...partly because I'm not even sure the club has decided what the direction is.

I'm sure the muppets are pleased with Falcao, but then they were wetting themselves over Mata...a player whos purchase coincided with us becoming much worse.

 

[Werewolf]

There is some serious idealism vibe going on in this thread. Manchester United as a platonic Ideal with which fans madly fall in love or worship.
People, your heads are filled with ghosts.

 

[Will Absolute]

Danny has been playing Premier league football since he was nineteen. There's a limit to the amount of time a player can be given in the hope that he'll eventually fulfill his promise. If LVG didn't think he was good enough to be first choice and Danny didn't want to continue to play second fiddle, what was the solution?

Imo we've got 3/4 really promising young talents at Old Trafford - Januzaj, Wilson, Blackett and Pereira. If those players aren't given their chance in the next few years, we can talk about the club's identity being broken.

 

[Mockney]

The stories of him wanting out were in the Moyes era. I remember a lot of journos backtracking on that sentiment once Moyes got sacked. Taylor's article says he was still contemplating leaving despite the change of manager, fair enough. We heard nothing of him wanting out all summer though, until it broke in the papers that he'd been told by LVG he wasn't wanted and could leave.

I fail to see what this changes? Danny wanted out because he wasn't getting game time in front of Rooney & RVP. Is it better that he wanted out during the Moyes reign, when we were doing really badly? Surely that would be worse?

And even if we just ignore that, the story that he was leaving came out weeks before Falcao. So he wasn't just pushed out in favour of a muppet signing. He was told he wouldn't get the game time he had wanted since April, with Rooney & RVP still likely to be preferred, so he decided to leave. And since Chicho was also leaving, we brought in said muppet signing. Seems just as plausible.

 

[0161_UNITED]

The stories of him wanting out were in the Moyes era. I remember a lot of journos backtracking on that sentiment once Moyes got sacked. Taylor's article says he was still contemplating leaving despite the change of manager, fair enough. We heard nothing of him wanting out all summer though, until it broke in the papers that he'd been told by LVG he wasn't wanted and could leave.

I think letting him join a top 4 rival is what's really gotten a lot of people. We finished 7th last year, we look absolutely dire in the opening few games and are already trailing our competitors and we've gone and solved Arsenal biggest weakness on deadline day. It's risky at best, humiliating at worst if come May we're outside the CL spots.

Agree in part, but I don't think it'll be humiliating if Welbeck hypothetically plays a part in us losing out on top 4. Ironic maybe. Humiliating would be United sitting on their hands and not trying to proactively repair the state of the squad, improve performances, and ignore issues for the sake of tradition and persist with a squad that clearly is not working. That would be humiliating.

 

[MDFC Manager]

Agree in part, but I don't think it'll be humiliating if Welbeck hypothetically plays a part in us losing out on top 4. Ironic maybe. Humiliating would be United sitting on their hands and not trying to proactively repair the state of the squad, improve performances, and ignore issues for the sake of tradition and persist with a squad that clearly is not working. That would be humiliating.

Well put. In fact, we aren't doing away with tradition either. We've bought in Blackett and Wilson into the squad, have we not? LvG will certainly give chances to our kids, who actually deserve chances and will improve the team.

 

[Anduin]

Sorry but this is insane we've sold DANNY WELBECK not George Best.

100x this.

I came in here and was like WTF is this shit, we've sold one player FFS and had to rebuild due to a massive (necessary) clearout of multiple great servants of the club... not surprised Phelan can't grasp that, he also thought he was 'almost managing Manchester United'

 

[KeaneSixteen]

Where are people getting this information from?

He was told he can leave, and obviously he took up that option. Of course he probably had the option to stick around, but he's not going to work day in day out with a manager who's told him to leave because he doesn't want him.

Back in May he was stating, to the Guardian, that he was frustrated with his lack of first team chances and being played out of position. There was a Red Cafe thread HERE about it earlier than that.

 

[ArmchairCritic]

Yes but Aside from all this ethos/identity stuff, selling a player who is rated by a lot of people (and fans) to a direct rival for a top four spot, is hardly going to inspire complete confidence in the club and its decision making

As I said above, personally it's made me feel very uneasy. The general consensus among the gossipers I've spoken to today (United fans or otherwise), is that the club has no fecking clue what it's doing.

Overall, if you'd told me in December last year that the club was going to change its approach to transfers completely and sign nearly £200m worth of players, I would expect to look at the squad now and see something that had been strengthened significantly and could compare to the likes of City/Chelsea. Instead, we have what looks like an imbalanced mess, and one of the players I thought was key to building a new team is playing for fecking Arsenal. I can't say I'm best pleased or particularly confident in this new direction...partly because I'm not even sure the club has decided what the direction is.

I'm sure the muppets are pleased with Falcao, but then they were wetting themselves over Mata...a player whos purchase coincided with us becoming much worse.

Apart from Falcao and Mata we've bought players in positions we need haven't we? Rojo, Di Maria, Blind all offer tactical flexibility which Van Gaal likes, Herrera's a midfielder and Shaw's a Left Back. Obviously we've taken a huge hit in experience but in a weird way this is what we need. I think we had too many players who had gotten too comfortable under SAF, had a shock under Moyes and were subsequently unable to rise to the new challenge.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

The big difference between Rojo/Blind and Vidic/Evra is that - at least in my opinion - we actually depend on the former pair to come in and improve us (dramatically) here and now. Evra and Vidic weren't in that category.

I agree, though, that they're both players Fergie might have gone for back in the day - good players with the potential to become top class rather than ready-made stars.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Manchester United is Manchester United , end of.

Players come and go, the club did exist before 1992. Every now and again we get a crop of good young players coming through the ranks, but we've always bought players as well.

Meaningless thread

 

[gasmanc]

Nothing's changed in the long run, Ferguson had no 2nd thoughts to booting anyone he saw unfit from the club. Not read the whole thread but Beckham has surely been mentioned, brought through the ranks, class of 92, pack your stuff son your off.
My feeling is that SAF had actually gotten a little sentimental as he neared retirement, players like Nani, Anderson given chance after chance, Cleverley wouldn't have survived this long under a younger ruthless Ferguson.


All we've seen this last few days is a return to a manager that has that ruthless edge ! United's identity is the exact opposite of broken, it's being found again.

 

[Blue always red]

I am sure we signed veron and RVN in 2001? And Ferdinand in 2002

Phelans mentality is one of the reasons why we missed out on so many players and e was part of the clubs regression, between 2009 to 2013

And yet in that period of regression we won 2 Prems and got to 2 champs league finals. I don't understand why we don't spend 110M every summer frankly. It's obvious United success has been built completely on foreign players.

 

[Giggsforever]

I would rather say we are closer to our Identity and are adding quality player to a group that is lacking. This is a signing that SAF would be more than likely to make as well. We were blessed with the class of 92' but that is not something you can ever expect happen again, but we are still trying hard to develope players at the club and we have players that can make the first team in a few years.

Phelan probably got flashbacks to 93 when he was falling behind and replaced by Kanchelskis and his post traumatic stress disorder kicked in.

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

Why wouldn't I? It seems fairly plausible. A lot of players probably wanted to see how things panned out under LVG before deciding their future. Vidic might even regret pissing off so early. Chicharito was doing the same thing. Or perhaps United were waiting to see who they could get in to replace Danny first. Or perhaps Danny and his agent were waiting for the best offers. There's plenty of scenarios that don't fit your "We just callously chucked out a young player, and thus completely betrayed our ethos" perspective.

Welbeck has every right to want to play regularly in his favored position at his age, so I don't blame him in the slightest. But blaming Van Gaal for it is nonsense too. If anything he did the more honorable thing by letting him go (and to the club he wanted, rather than the prefered Spurs loan) rather than forcing him to stick around here, stunting his development for our increasingly dwindling benefit.

We were never going to play him centrally. Not for years at least, even without Falcao. Arsenal are. So even if he does suddenly become a World Beater, it doesn't mean it wouldve definitely happened here.

The rumours are that he does regret moving. He did it assuming Moyes would still be manager and by the time Moyes had been sacked it was too late. Pretty sure it was in one of the Red Issue's towards the end of last season.

I do agree with Mockney actually now we've had 24 hours or so to accept it. It's gutting because Welbeck was a very good player and a local lad but it sounds like it was pretty unavoidable and he was determined to go to Arsenal.

 

[dasty]

I can't believe this forum is having a meltdown after we swapped Welbeck for Falcao

 

[Mockney]

Yes but Aside from all this ethos/identity stuff, selling a player who is rated by a lot of people (and fans) to a direct rival for a top four spot, is hardly going to inspire complete confidence in the club and its decision making

As I said above, personally it's made me feel very uneasy. The general consensus among the gossipers I've spoken to today (United fans or otherwise), is that the club has no fecking clue what it's doing.

Overall, if you'd told me in December last year that the club was going to change its approach to transfers completely and sign nearly £200m worth of players, I would expect to look at the squad now and see something that had been strengthened significantly and could compare to the likes of City/Chelsea. Instead, we have what looks like an imbalanced mess, and one of the players I thought was key to building a new team is playing for fecking Arsenal. I can't say I'm best pleased or particularly confident in this new direction...partly because I'm not even sure the club has decided what the direction is.

I'm sure the muppets are pleased with Falcao, but then they were wetting themselves over Mata...a player whos purchase coincided with us becoming much worse.

Well then that's nothing really to do with our ethos of buying and selling. It's just annoyance that we sold a good player to a rival. I never saw that as part of United's identy though, that was just Fergie. And we aren't Fergie's United anymore. Tough. It's also what Danny wanted, and will be the best for him, and if you actually liked him, surely that's the right thing to do?

For what it's worth I agree the success of our summer business has been masked a bit by two ridiculously high profile signings in positions it didn't seem like we needed. But even then, I still don't consider that a betrayal or reversal of anything we haven't done before.

 

[Erebus]

This is just another rehash of the mythical "United Way" - a phrase I hate because it has been used to oppose and vilify every progressive move that there's been at the club since SAF left. For the record the "United Way" I recognise is the proactive, challenging and change driven way - the early Sir Matt challenging to get teams in Europe, or the modernising of early SAF - and they all sit well with the style of changes LVG is making. It is not the "United Way" or breaking United's identity to resist change. Throughout history we have consistently been in the vanguard, adapting and evolving. The "United Way" and maintaining United's identity is to chase success and do what's needed. The article is misguided sentimental claptrap.

 

[0161_UNITED]

Well put. In fact, we aren't doing away with tradition either. We've bought in Blackett and Wilson into the squad, have we not? LvG will certainly give chances to our kids, who actually deserve chances and will improve the team.

Exactly. It's almost disrespectful to ignore that we are indeed still giving opportunity to homegrown academy talent like Blackett and Wilson. I like Welbeck. I'd have been happy if he stayed. He wanted Arsenal, and honestly I understand that a move to Arsenal at this moment could provide him a real chance to shine. How some manage to equate that with begrudging the ethos of Manchester United is idiocy.

 

[ghagua]

Phelan and Meulensteen are like 2 psycho ex girlfriends who just will not go away. Welbeck and Cleverley got a lot of chances and were simply not up to it. Youth will still get it's chance, but those players will need to be really outstanding in order to break into the team. 20 years ago there were 2 -3 good teams in the league, rest were there for the taking, but now, even the lower teams are capable of getting results against the top teams on a regular basis. With the money at stake from Champions league qualification, no one's going to get sentimental and play the young players unless they are really, really good.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Yes but Aside from all this ethos/identity stuff, selling a player who is rated by a lot of people (and fans) to a direct rival for a top four spot, is hardly going to inspire complete confidence in the club and its decision making

As I said above, personally it's made me feel very uneasy. The general consensus among the gossipers I've spoken to today (United fans or otherwise), is that the club has no fecking clue what it's doing.

Overall, if you'd told me in December last year that the club was going to change its approach to transfers completely and sign nearly £200m worth of players, I would expect to look at the squad now and see something that had been strengthened significantly and could compare to the likes of City/Chelsea. Instead, we have what looks like an imbalanced mess, and one of the players I thought was key to building a new team is playing for fecking Arsenal. I can't say I'm best pleased or particularly confident in this new direction...partly because I'm not even sure the club has decided what the direction is.

I'm sure the muppets are pleased with Falcao, but then they were wetting themselves over Mata...a player whos purchase coincided with us becoming much worse.

I largely agree. Forget about the identity part, that's hardly a substantial category to begin with and can mean whatever you want it to. The balance of our team and the kind of players we have brought in - for immense amounts of money - is a far more material concern.

And I ain't sure at all that we're well run at the moment. I hope LVG knows what he's doing. His greatest strength as a manager isn't muppetry of this sort. I can't reconcile the Falcao deal with LVG's known methods. Well see, though - I'm more than willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, of course. Confident that everything will turn out rosy, though? Not as such.

I don't readily accept that a loan deal for a player (on exorbitant wages) whose best position happens to be that of both RVP and Rooney, was somehow too good to pass up.

 

[ravi2]

This is just another rehash of the mythical "United Way" - a phrase I hate because it has been used to oppose and vilify every progressive move that there's been at the club since SAF left. For the record the "United Way" I recognise is the proactive, challenging and change driven way - the early Sir Matt challenging to get teams in Europe, or the modernising of early SAF - and they all sit well with the style of changes LVG is making. It is not the "United Way" or breaking United's identity to resist change. Throughout history we have consistently been in the vanguard, adapting and evolving. The "United Way" and maintaining United's identity is to chase success and do what's needed. The article is misguided sentimental claptrap.

The "United Way" was chanted like a mantra by folks who wanted Moyes to stay as well.
feck that.

 

[0161_UNITED]

I'm sure the muppets are pleased with Falcao, but then they were wetting themselves over Mata...a player whos purchase coincided with us becoming much worse.

Danny Welbeck was also heavily involved during this period, with both RVP and Rooney suffering from injuries. Did his contribution far outshine Juan Mata's? Not that I recall. The whole bloody team collapsed. Shiny new expensive muppet gems, value purchases, and our homegrown academy players. Nobody came out of last season with any credit bar maybe De Gea. Sure, spending vast amounts may or may not be the answer, but sitting on our hands was certainly not the answer.

 

[adamwest]

Rio Ferdinand was 24 when we signed him - the same age as Blind and Rojo are now - and he was the world's most expensive defender at the time. We had serious defensive problems in 2001/02 and threw money at it in the summer.

Rooney, at 18, was the world's most expensive teenager of all time. Two other Manchester United signings have made the top ten since: Anderson in 2007 and Luke Shaw in 2014. Paying big money for a highly regarded British (or Irish) youngster is certainly nothing new. We broke the British transfer record for Roy Keane in 1993.

Vidic and Evra were 25 when we signed them. One year younger than Di María, same age as Ander Herrera, older than Blind or Rojo. They weren't gambles in terms of the price but we couldn't be sure that they would cut it at this level. Much like Blind and Rojo, though with inflation and desperation, they are obviously more expensive.

Even Ronaldo came for a relatively huge fee. In 2003, 12.25m was big money for an 18-year-old, even if we blew it out of the water a year later with the Rooney transfer.

It is true that we didn't sign all these players in ONE transfer window. But then again we didn't finish seventh in any of the previous seasons. Now here we are, after years of poor performance in the transfer market and after a horribly botched managerial appointment - we needed to do in one window what we usually do over several years. But we did what we always do: sign highly rated youngsters, plug some gaps with relatively inexpensive 24-25 year olds and making one or two really big signings.

Yes, Welbeck's gone. It doesn't represent a change in identity though. It merely shows that he didn't want to be a squad player and the management felt he didn't have enough in him to be first choice. Considering that after a season of playing Welbeck as one of the main strikers, Fergie went out and got both Kagawa and Van Persie in, it's not a great surprise.

Great post. The bolded part sums it up, which was obviously your point

 

[devilish]

So lets start with United producing players thing. The last world class player we produced was within the 92 class. We got close with a certain Paul Pogba but United's 'identity' preferred to get a 36+ player out of retirement then play him and he ended up going to Juventus. Strangely enough no one accused us of losing our identity back then. What we become good in doing since then was to buy fairly young players and develop them further. Ronaldo, Vidic and Carrick are a shining example of that. Which lead us to my second question. What exactly have VG's bought.

We've bought 6 players. Mesah a 16 year old from Ajax, Luke Shaw, an 19 year old fullback from Southampton. Rojo a 24 year old who did well in the Portuguese league after failing in Russia, Blind a Dutch 24 year old player whom, just few years ago was booed by his own fans because he wasn't good enough, Di Maria a 26 year old Argentinian international and Falcao. Out of that list, the first 4 of them are work in progress. They certainly have less of a reputation of Vidic and Young. The former was a rock for Spartak (the team were Rojo failed) and Serbia prior to signing with us, the latter was EPL proven and captain of Aston Villa. Surely they are bigger names and have more experience than Shaw, Rojo and Blind. Which leads us to Di Maria and Falcao two big names (one is on loan). When was the last time we bought to foreign big names? Hmm.....I guess one has to go back to the year of......2012-2013 when United splashed the cash on Arsenal's captain and Dortmund's player of the year Shinji Kagawa. No one asked about our identity back then or whether it RVP's signing with ruin Welbeck's career.

The least said by Phelan is better. His role at United was purely comical and is reflected by the fact that no one offered him a job afterwards (nearly all SAF's assistant managers at United were given a top job, one even as manager of a certain Real Madrid). He's a nobody and the way he got the job reflects the complacency that creeped in at United throughout the last SAF years at the club.

Moyes, Giggs (VG assistant) and VG hasn't lost their ideology. Moyes gave Januzaj a chance, Giggs gave Wilson a chance while VG has also found space for the likes of James, Blackett, Janko and Lingaard. The fact that not one but two managers who has a reputation of relying on youths had spent ridiculous amounts of money to strengthen the side is food for thought for everybody.

 

[Bebe]

I think Welbeck hurts a bit more because he leaves United as a bit of an unfinished gem. I realize others may not share this opinion but I genuinely do think he has the ability to be a starting striker for Manchester United. The problem is he's been blocked off from getting the minutes needed to achieve that level by having Berbatov, Rooney, RVP etc in front of him. Rooney for instance never really had that problem (I know Rooney was a phenom and all that, not comparing their talent levels necessarily).

Basically I think Welbeck is a victim of unfortunate circumstance, whereas Cleverley is a simple lack of necessary ability. Welbeck has certainly proven his worth in the big games, especially against Madrid and Bayern. But it reached a stage where he knew he wouldnt be able to dislodge either Rooney or RVP, two of the best strikers in the past decade. That's without even mentioning Falcao. So he had to leave. It's unfortunate, but it doesn't mean we've tossed away our identity.

We've placed a great deal of faith for this season in Evans, Smalling, Jones and Shaw, all young Englishmen (well Evans not so young but you get the point). It's sensationalism to say we've thrown away our identity. The only part of it we've truly distanced ourselves from is continually underspending relative to our means. Personally, I'm quite happy about that.