This and if Danny Welbeck was the only player giving us some sort of identity, well we had some big problems didn't we.
Utd now just another big club | All "United losing identity" stuff here
- Thread starter birdy2121
- Start date
This and if Danny Welbeck was the only player giving us some sort of identity, well we had some big problems didn't we.
Cleverley really wasn't good enough. Could have been a squad option but with new contract coming up selling him wasn't a issue.
Welbeck was different though. He has a chance of being good enough in the future, and maybe we should have managed the situation better with LVG and done more to keep him and convince for a loan at most instead of selling to a direct rival. That's what SAF would have done. But he wanted to leave for first team football, i guess and was adamant on a permanent move so it worked both ways. Tough situation.
Just because Welbeck isn't good at 23 doesn't mean he won't be good at 26 is the point. See Chelsea's situation last season when Sturridge was banging in goals for Liverpool and they had Torres, the 50 million Superstar signing as laughing stock.(Welbeck along with that had a added bonus of being a Manc and academy product from young age) Which is always very special. Some of the responses in the thread fail to realize this but they'd be the first ones moaning if in a couple of years Rooney, RVP decline and Welbeck is playing well.
In this situation specifically i won't say our identity is broken or anything, given it was Welbeck that forced the move depsite not being good enough to be a starter at 23 so far but hope this doesn't become a trend which some seem to want. Whats next ? Don't wanna become a short term high turnover club with no chance for our own. Need to balance both the aspects and still get success but seems some would be happy to trade Janzuaj for Robben right now.
Welbeck was different though. He has a chance of being good enough in the future, and maybe we should have managed the situation better with LVG and done more to keep him and convince for a loan at most instead of selling to a direct rival. That's what SAF would have done. But he wanted to leave for first team football, i guess and was adamant on a permanent move so it worked both ways. Tough situation.
Just because Welbeck isn't good at 23 doesn't mean he won't be good at 26 is the point. See Chelsea's situation last season when Sturridge was banging in goals for Liverpool and they had Torres, the 50 million Superstar signing as laughing stock.(Welbeck along with that had a added bonus of being a Manc and academy product from young age) Which is always very special. Some of the responses in the thread fail to realize this but they'd be the first ones moaning if in a couple of years Rooney, RVP decline and Welbeck is playing well.
In this situation specifically i won't say our identity is broken or anything, given it was Welbeck that forced the move depsite not being good enough to be a starter at 23 so far but hope this doesn't become a trend which some seem to want. Whats next ? Don't wanna become a short term high turnover club with no chance for our own. Need to balance both the aspects and still get success but seems some would be happy to trade Janzuaj for Robben right now.
Last edited:
If Welbeck had really wanted to stay we would have kept him as well.
This is absolutely insane.
Ppl like Scholes screaming out for at least 5 top class signings. We do that and suddenly we are losing our identity?
Danny wasn't good to be a starter. He sure as hell, and rightly so, thought it was time for him to be exactly that though. So we let him go. Big deal. Anyway I'm out. I'm not going to let my mood be dragged down by this crazy talk about us losing our identity. What we did is exactly what was needed after that horrible last season when all the guys we actually had in the team had the opportunity to do is they are worth playing for this club and failed.
Actually its all a bit familiar to those of us who are old enough.
Manchester United had a long serving manager...Matt Busby. His anointed successor Frank O'Farrell had a good record with smaller clubs.
But O'Farrell simply wasnt up to dealing with Manchester United. And O'Farrell was sacked.
And Tommy Docherty got rid of the deadwood and brought in players on a spending spree and got....relegated.
Of course History doesnt repeat itself but it looks a bit familiar.
Manchester United had a long serving manager...Matt Busby. His anointed successor Frank O'Farrell had a good record with smaller clubs.
But O'Farrell simply wasnt up to dealing with Manchester United. And O'Farrell was sacked.
And Tommy Docherty got rid of the deadwood and brought in players on a spending spree and got....relegated.
Of course History doesnt repeat itself but it looks a bit familiar.
This. Seriously, a question to everyone who thinks its a mistake to sell Welbeck. Was he ever going to fulfill his potential and become a starter here? He would realistically displace Rooney/RvP or Falcao in 3 years or so, by the age of 26 and turning 27, if he ever sorted out his finishing, which I doubt would happen given he'd always be a bench player at United and played out of position. Sure he's got potential, but he would never reach that because he wouldn't get the game time at United. By the time he finally became a starter at the age of 26 or 27, Wilson would be 22 or 23 and already pushing for a spot, and IMO Wilson looks like he'll be a much better goalscorer then Welbeck can dream of being.
Yes, it sucks to sell a good academy player like Welbeck. But was he good enough to become a starter ahead of Rooney or Van Persie and make them sit on the bench while still in their prime? No way. And there's no point keeping him on the bench because he's not an impact sub type of player. Best thing for all involved was for him to move on. We've sold much more important and better academy players over the years, those who were actually starting 11 players and key players in our team.
Based on his role in the squad, Welbeck was a glorified John O'Shea pretty much, always played out of position and rotating around, but mostly on the bench when everyone was fit.
Can you explain the difference to this then?
Or as Mockney pointed out before the difference to Fergie shipping out Gillespie to make way for Cole. One of numerous other examples.
Everybody's at it. 
Anybody that's been paying any attention to the clubs situation would not be surprised by our spending and decisions this summer. One fecking window of bringing in a few worldies with our own income and we should be ashamed of ourselves? feck off.
Anybody that's been paying any attention to the clubs situation would not be surprised by our spending and decisions this summer. One fecking window of bringing in a few worldies with our own income and we should be ashamed of ourselves? feck off.
Even if that were true, chief, should we be at all surprised? We live in times when public image is everything, to far more important institutions than Manchester United: look at the Met Police, with their 40+ media advisers; look at our last 3 Prime Ministers, phoning Simon Bloody Cowell to ensure that they had his vote; look at the Rotherham 'bad press about racism is worse than rape' debacle; look at Ed Woodward, scouring social media to see what us 'muppets' think. Etc etc.
The big clubs lost their souls to this monetised nonsense decades ago, truth be told.
Well, with the greatest of respect to Phelan, if the coaching set-up during the last 5 years before LvG's arrival had ensured a stronger caliber of youngsters who were technically good enough to mix it up with the best in the PL, I'm sure LvG would've been happy to save millions and simply promote from within.
And Welbeck hasn't left because we've signed Falcao and pushed Danny out - he was asking to leave last season ffs!
I always think, when reading nonsense articles like this, that people don't realise that the 'Class of 92' was an anomaly - something, in my opinion, that Fergie was simply lucky to inherit. Yes, he had the steel nerve to show absolute faith in them, and his tactics at the time were penetrative and direct, but it shouldn't be used as the yardstick to define how we operate as a club, or to define our 'identity' (whatever the f**k that even means, doesn't the identity of any given thing constantly change?).
The clubs 'identity' survived the 'Rock Of Gibraltar' nonsense that landed the club in the hands of the Glazers, whose ownership the club's 'identity' has also survived thus far. Dozens of daft marketing pre-seasons spent flaunting our first team to potential sponsors when we should be knuckling down tactically on a training pitch (funny how our football gradually got poorer as those jaunts gradually increased, isn't it...?) hasn't broken our 'identity'.
We've survived all that nonsense with our 'identity' intact, but by selling Danny Welbeck - a player who wanted to leave since last season - our 'identity' is broken... Give it a rest.
Don't get me wrong, I view SAF as the greatest manager of all time. I actually feel lucky to've experienced his reign. But the 'Class of 92' was an anomaly, and I get tired of the 'good Old Boys' and opposition either misunderstanding it, or misremembering it and then trying to patronise us as a club by telling us what OUR club 'means'.
We're not FC St. Pauli, we're the absolute biggest commercial club that's ever been in football history, wake up.
We make money - lots and lots of money - and we've just spent some of it so we can play better, more exciting football and win even more trophies and regain dominance...
Our 'identity' feels fine to me.
And Welbeck hasn't left because we've signed Falcao and pushed Danny out - he was asking to leave last season ffs!
I always think, when reading nonsense articles like this, that people don't realise that the 'Class of 92' was an anomaly - something, in my opinion, that Fergie was simply lucky to inherit. Yes, he had the steel nerve to show absolute faith in them, and his tactics at the time were penetrative and direct, but it shouldn't be used as the yardstick to define how we operate as a club, or to define our 'identity' (whatever the f**k that even means, doesn't the identity of any given thing constantly change?).
The clubs 'identity' survived the 'Rock Of Gibraltar' nonsense that landed the club in the hands of the Glazers, whose ownership the club's 'identity' has also survived thus far. Dozens of daft marketing pre-seasons spent flaunting our first team to potential sponsors when we should be knuckling down tactically on a training pitch (funny how our football gradually got poorer as those jaunts gradually increased, isn't it...?) hasn't broken our 'identity'.
We've survived all that nonsense with our 'identity' intact, but by selling Danny Welbeck - a player who wanted to leave since last season - our 'identity' is broken... Give it a rest.
Don't get me wrong, I view SAF as the greatest manager of all time. I actually feel lucky to've experienced his reign. But the 'Class of 92' was an anomaly, and I get tired of the 'good Old Boys' and opposition either misunderstanding it, or misremembering it and then trying to patronise us as a club by telling us what OUR club 'means'.
We're not FC St. Pauli, we're the absolute biggest commercial club that's ever been in football history, wake up.
We make money - lots and lots of money - and we've just spent some of it so we can play better, more exciting football and win even more trophies and regain dominance...
Our 'identity' feels fine to me.
We didn't sell Pogba. He dicked us and left at 18 for free.
Morrison was a problem case.
Phelan is 100% correct - but it was still the right thing to do as our current identity wasn't good enough
And lets be honest - what is the point of being the richest club in the world if you dont use it to buy the best players ?
And lets be honest - what is the point of being the richest club in the world if you dont use it to buy the best players ?
We lost our identity last year when we finished outside the top 4. Now we're trying to get it back.
Someone make Ryan Giggs wear a shorts on matchday and United's identity would be back in Phelan's eyes...
The people saying we're betraying our philosophy by buying big name attackers, are mostly the same people saying we should replace Blackett, Evans etc. with big names like Hummels. Pundit logic...
This is actually laughable....Embarrassing and laughable! All for Danny bloody Welbeck!! 
Our squad between 2006 - 2009 was built on Ronaldo, Rooney, Tevez, Vidic, Rio, Evra, Carrick and to a lesser extent, Saha. What do they all have in common? They were bought!! None of them were brought through the ranks at the club and those who were, all either sat on the bench or were got rid of!
Was their any of this craic when we sold Butt, Neville, Bardsley, Richardson, O Shea, Brown or Beckham?! Or when we got shot of Gillespie? Or what about Whiteside others? No!
All this is because of current situation the club finds itself in....The majority of the players I've listed have done ten times more for this club then Danny Welbeck has ever done!
I would have loved to have seen Danny Welbeck become our main man up front and become a legend and lead the team/club into another successful era....But the fact is, he's not been good enough and hasn't looked like he'd ever become good enough for that role at this club. Then, you add to the fact he's been pricking about for the guts of 8 months, looking to get away.
This whole "identity" been lost is a load of crap. The identity is still there but, it needs a lot of work in terms of rebuilding if we ever want to see success from that side of things again. Same goes for any other club who want to bring youth through. To put this into perspective, Southampton are ahead of United, Liverpool and Arsenal right now, for bringing youth products through...
Where was the uproar when Fergie got shot of the likes of Terry Cooke, Chris Casper, Simon Davis etc in 1996?! Because from my memory, everyone, including ex United players, were saying we had lost the plot bringing youth through in 1995.
As I said, all of this because of the current situation
Our squad between 2006 - 2009 was built on Ronaldo, Rooney, Tevez, Vidic, Rio, Evra, Carrick and to a lesser extent, Saha. What do they all have in common? They were bought!! None of them were brought through the ranks at the club and those who were, all either sat on the bench or were got rid of!
Was their any of this craic when we sold Butt, Neville, Bardsley, Richardson, O Shea, Brown or Beckham?! Or when we got shot of Gillespie? Or what about Whiteside others? No!
All this is because of current situation the club finds itself in....The majority of the players I've listed have done ten times more for this club then Danny Welbeck has ever done!
I would have loved to have seen Danny Welbeck become our main man up front and become a legend and lead the team/club into another successful era....But the fact is, he's not been good enough and hasn't looked like he'd ever become good enough for that role at this club. Then, you add to the fact he's been pricking about for the guts of 8 months, looking to get away.
This whole "identity" been lost is a load of crap. The identity is still there but, it needs a lot of work in terms of rebuilding if we ever want to see success from that side of things again. Same goes for any other club who want to bring youth through. To put this into perspective, Southampton are ahead of United, Liverpool and Arsenal right now, for bringing youth products through...
Where was the uproar when Fergie got shot of the likes of Terry Cooke, Chris Casper, Simon Davis etc in 1996?! Because from my memory, everyone, including ex United players, were saying we had lost the plot bringing youth through in 1995.
As I said, all of this because of the current situation
I read this on twitter and it described the situation perfectly.
Man Utd buying WC Players= Their identity is broken
United playing with a team made of defense of young English players= They must buy defenders, their defense is crap.
Man Utd buying WC Players= Their identity is broken
United playing with a team made of defense of young English players= They must buy defenders, their defense is crap.
I understand Pogba felt he was being dicked, by Fergie. So he left, and from his development since I'd say he was right to do so.
There have been rumours about Welbeck wanting to leave for a while now. It isnt as if we got Falcao and decided to feck him off. Not every academy player is satisfied to be a squad player all his life. Its absolutely fair. Crucifying the club because they let him go is ridiculous, should we have forced him to rot with the reserves?
People just want to moan.
Don't forget that Jesse Lingard started in LvGs first match. Blackett has played every premier league match so far.
Was about to post something along these lines.
I don't think we've "veered" too far away from the United identity.
We've signed 1 marquee player (AdM) & loaned another probably due to the news of RvP's fitness. The rest are all fairly young & needs to develop. I think the uproar over selling Welbeck is a bit OTT.
We're still bringing through a shit load of youngsters. So what's the problem?
I don't want the circular Pogba debate here again. But point stands that he left on a free at 18. We didn't want him leaving.
Phelan isn't correct in any sense IMO. Our identity over the past 20 odd years has been based off a exceptional manager that's recently retired. People need to get over that fact and move the hell on now. LVG is in charge now and he's going to do what he must to succeed in modern football. Not copy SAF, just like Moyes attempted to.
Completely agree with welbeck, hate the idea he's gone as ive rated him highly. but all im going to say is, about the bolded statement. The team we had at the very start of the window, was never going to grow and be successful it was one of the worst squads we've ever had, and we played the shittest football in the premier league to boot years on end. the ENTIRE reason we were able to "do the united way" bollocks was because we got a once in a lifetime goldmine of youth team products in 92 and we built the entire club around them with ferguson at the helm, with the best british talent (rio, rooney etc) mixed in. we were lucky and we made the absolute best out of it. the only other team who have been able to do it in a similar fashion are barca with their la masa graduate side xavi, pique, fabregas,iniesta,puyol,pedro,messi etc.
if you dont get one of these magical generations, unfortunately you do need to buy the right players to be successful, and the scraps and stopgap side we had strung together post 2008 culminated in our poorest side because we failed to replace that generation. blah blah blah we've all discussed this to death sorry
We lost our true identity, the second we finished in 7th place!!!
Sometimes nepotism is mixed with identity ex 'family run' businesses.
Now imagine you've got a restaurant. Would you turn Jamie Oliver as chef down because your nephew happens to be able to make a nice salad?
Now imagine you've got a restaurant. Would you turn Jamie Oliver as chef down because your nephew happens to be able to make a nice salad?
But we promoted Wilson, James, Blackett, Lingard and Januzaj in the last 12 months.
I'm a big Danny Welbeck fan and think he'll do very well for Arsenal but this reaction is ridiculous. We spent a lot of money during this transfer window and it's only when we see Welbeck and loan Falcao that this United Identity question comes up.
Either we lost or identity over the entirety of the transfer window or we didn't lose it at all. Nothing changed yesterday. We brought in a top class striker. Our third choice striker wanted to move away as he was going to become fourth choice. He is coming towards the prime of his career and not playing first team football. He wanted a move, it was understandable and we respected his wishes.
United are only doing what the other top clubs in the world, including United as it happens, have done for years. This is the first time we have had to make such a radical overhaul because we let it go too far and we had too many mediocre players in our squad. But why is it a bad thing to be a club that buys top players? Because Chelsea, City and PSG do it? Barca, Bayern and Real do it too. Traditionally AC Milan and Juventus have done it also. The top clubs in the world all buy top talent. As I've said, we've done it too. It's not something that has happened this year for the first time. We broke the British Transfer record to buy Denis Law. We broke it again to buy Bryan Robson, Roy Keane, Andy Cole, Veron and Rio Ferdinand. Wayne Rooney didn't come cheap. We have always spent top dollar when the right player has been available.
Of course it would be great to have 11 Academy lads playing week in week out and tearing the premier league a new one. Even better, eleven academy lads from Manchester. But come on, it's hardly realistic. In fact, most of our recent academy stars aren't even Mancs, nevermind our first team. Welbeck is a great player and I'm sad to see him go. It is harder because he's a local lad. We all wanted him to make it that bit more because of that. But he wasn't first choice and a player of his ability is entitled to go and get first team football.
We still have Blackett who is a Manchester lad making his mark on the first team and will get plenty of games this year. Wilson is from just down the road and destined for big things. Evans, Januzaj and Fletcher are academy products who are plying their trade in the first team. Lingard, James and possibly the likes of Will Keane, Pereira and Janko could feature at times this year.
We've had a radical overhaul, no doubt. It's been drastic but needed. But we've got strong academy players coming through under a manager with a history of giving youth a chance. Don't listen to this sensationalist nonsense about us losing our identity and selling our soul. We've been hearing it for years. Do people not remember us buying league titles in the 1990's?
Either we lost or identity over the entirety of the transfer window or we didn't lose it at all. Nothing changed yesterday. We brought in a top class striker. Our third choice striker wanted to move away as he was going to become fourth choice. He is coming towards the prime of his career and not playing first team football. He wanted a move, it was understandable and we respected his wishes.
United are only doing what the other top clubs in the world, including United as it happens, have done for years. This is the first time we have had to make such a radical overhaul because we let it go too far and we had too many mediocre players in our squad. But why is it a bad thing to be a club that buys top players? Because Chelsea, City and PSG do it? Barca, Bayern and Real do it too. Traditionally AC Milan and Juventus have done it also. The top clubs in the world all buy top talent. As I've said, we've done it too. It's not something that has happened this year for the first time. We broke the British Transfer record to buy Denis Law. We broke it again to buy Bryan Robson, Roy Keane, Andy Cole, Veron and Rio Ferdinand. Wayne Rooney didn't come cheap. We have always spent top dollar when the right player has been available.
Of course it would be great to have 11 Academy lads playing week in week out and tearing the premier league a new one. Even better, eleven academy lads from Manchester. But come on, it's hardly realistic. In fact, most of our recent academy stars aren't even Mancs, nevermind our first team. Welbeck is a great player and I'm sad to see him go. It is harder because he's a local lad. We all wanted him to make it that bit more because of that. But he wasn't first choice and a player of his ability is entitled to go and get first team football.
We still have Blackett who is a Manchester lad making his mark on the first team and will get plenty of games this year. Wilson is from just down the road and destined for big things. Evans, Januzaj and Fletcher are academy products who are plying their trade in the first team. Lingard, James and possibly the likes of Will Keane, Pereira and Janko could feature at times this year.
We've had a radical overhaul, no doubt. It's been drastic but needed. But we've got strong academy players coming through under a manager with a history of giving youth a chance. Don't listen to this sensationalist nonsense about us losing our identity and selling our soul. We've been hearing it for years. Do people not remember us buying league titles in the 1990's?
Hopefully these critics will remember to say all that disingenous stuff about 'massively-expensive teams needing time to gell' if our results remain poor for a while. Bet they forget to do that though...
Would you rather we persisted with Cleverley and Welbeck?!
Btw, Luke Shaw, Rafael and James Wilson say hi
We've brought in players that fit this criteria, but one thing that's different from previous times is that we don't have a successful core to work around.
Spending this amount of money isn't unique, we spent 113 million in the 2006/7 season (taking into account inflation). It's the last time we tried to buy a midfield.
I don't see selling Welbeck as mimicking City/Real. He wanted to play first team football, even before we got Falcao he was trying for a move. From United's unsentimental perspective, he was also one of the only players we could make some money selling.
They've also forgot to mention that we have Shaw, Rafael, Wilson and Januzaj.....
Sack LVG, bring back identity
Yep. Paul Pogba, Guissepe Rossie, Keith Gillespie et al might take issue with Phelan's ramblings.
One young player. Who wanted to leave before we went for Falcao. And it's exactly what we did with Andy Cole.
LVG has given debuts to slew of players this year, even playing a ridiculously unneeded amount of them in the COC despite having no European distractions. And not just Academy graduates either, but local lads like Blackett and James too, not to mention a debut for Lingard. This hoorar over Welbeck is simply because it's Welbeck, a player people liked. And everyone's bending it's "meaning" well out of proportion to fit their annoyance.
Last edited:
'Big business in being pragmatic Shock'
Oh so Welbeck wanted to leave, LvG couldn't guarantee him a spot in starting lineup. those pundits/ex United just talking non sense. Sad yes but what would have we supposed to do? offer Welbeck 250k/w?
If anything, blame Fergie, the RvP signing pretty much was the final nail in the coffin for Welbeck & Chicharito.
If anything, blame Fergie, the RvP signing pretty much was the final nail in the coffin for Welbeck & Chicharito.
Last edited:
One player doesn't make Utd's identity
Or, how about getting rid of Lee Sharpe for Karel Poborsky?
Exactly
Hopefully Danny won't feel under too much pressure to score, seeing as he'll be joining in with Arsenal's traditional morris dancing around the penalty box.