UPDATED!!! United vs Top 6 - An Injury/Availability Analysis - Still Happy With 6th?

any chance we can get Alphonso Davies to replace Shaw who just can't stay healthy????
 
AR87 said:
Yeah, generally you need time to actually turn over a squad. A competent recruitment team capable of good decision making on the recommendations of scouts and analytics staff usually help achieve that.

Every manager we've had since Ferguson has been setup to fail because of how much responsibility in recruitment has been placed on them. That's not normal at any serious club in football right now and there's a reason for it. Sure, manager important and nice, but depending on them as much as United generally have in deciding on transfer targets is a major error. You need people dedicated to watching, scouting, and evaluating players outside the club to help guide those things, because a manager's primary focus should be molding and developing the squad that he's, you know, managinng.

Happy we agree.

This isn't even to suggest every manager we've had has been great or not at all culpable in their failures at the club, but at some point there's pretty clear consistency in how bad our recruitment has been from evaluation of talent to the actual negotiations on fee and wages. We have asked far too much from our managers whether or not they were the right person for the job.
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Most managers since Fergie were not good enough and should not never have been anywhere near the job. That's true of Moyes and Ole. LVG was over the hill and heading for the beach, 20 years late to be at OT. Mou also had been found out and his horrible, toxic management should never have been allowed into OT. Yes recruitment is consistently bad but its not the only or even main reason these people failed, its important to remember that. its also clear from widespread reports that ETH wanted and was given significant influence over signings, to the point he was able to overrule our scouts who had said no to Antony.

How many managers have the time 'to turn over a squad'. Has Ange done this? For all his failings you can see how he wants the team to play. Same at Brighton. Our team is full of experienced internationals, how many caps in the team that started at Luton for example. Can a supposedly great coach not get more out of them....?
 
Gordon Godot said:
Most managers since Fergie were not good enough and should not never have been anywhere near the job. That's true of Moyes and Ole. LVG was over the hill and heading for the beach, 20 years late to be at OT. Mou also had been found out and his horrible, toxic management should never have been allowed into OT. Yes recruitment is consistently bad but its not the only or even main reason these people failed, its important to remember that. its also clear from widespread reports that ETH wanted and was given significant influence over signings, to the point he was able to overrule our scouts who had said no to Antony.

How many managers have the time 'to turn over a squad'. Has Ange done this? For all his failings you can see how he wants the team to play. Same at Brighton. Our team is full of experienced internationals, how many caps in the team that started at Luton for example. Can a supposedly great coach not get more out of them....?
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I think if an incumbent owner who has spent over a year looking into the business is happy to publicly state that it hasn’t been the best then maybe there is something behind this idea of the structure not being at all right.
 
BenitoSTARR said:
I think if an incumbent owner who has spent over a year looking into the business is happy to publicly state that it hasn’t been the best then maybe there is something behind this idea of the structure not being at all right.
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I mean I’m pretty sure 99% of us on here agree our structure has been terrible for a decade+ that’s not really a point of contention
 
BenitoSTARR said:
So now once again we have:
  • Shaw 12 weeks
  • Martinez 6+ weeks
  • Mount TBC
  • Malacia TBC
  • Wan Bissaka TBC
  • Martial 6+ weeks
Main issue here is obviously once again Shaw, Martinez and Malacia all being out simultaneously means no left side coverage at all.
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And now Højlund 3 weeks…
 
This is a real pain 2 absolute nailed on starters injured this week and the replacements for them are nowhere near what we want. Summer can’t come quick enough to balance the squad. Major work needed. Fingers crossed we can keep the momentum going in league. I guess 1 bonus of no euro footy is we have less fixtures to worry about injuries.
 
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If we lost Mainoo for a considerable period of time now, we’d be totally fecked. At this point I wouldn’t be surprised if some Fulham shithouse clatters him on the weekend and does that.

I hope Brailsford’s audit involves a serious look at our medical and conditioning team. Every year for the past decade it feels like we have a plague of injuries. I feel like there’s been a good chunk of players who had good injury records before they joined us and left as sick notes. We got Zlatan badly injured and he barely ever got injured in his 15 years of playing before that.

Fecking Glazers and Woodward.
 
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BenitoSTARR said:
And now Højlund 3 weeks…
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These injuries are absolutely ridiculous honestly, I'm gutted that Hojlund is missing this one - we sorely lack some squad depth in this team, but I hope the starters tomorrow show some initiative and outwork their opponent, like we saw with Liverpool yesterday.
 
Sadly there has not really been any point in the season where the first eleven has been fit for longer than a few weeks. So you are always starting with whoever is fit, meaning you have no real chance to rest/rotate anyone without the standards plummeting.

Plus this season hasn't even been that gruelling of a schedule, so I really worry about next season, if the squad isn't corrected the like of Hojlund/Garnacho/Mainoo are going to be knackered before Christmas.
 
I backed Utd for top 4 about 4 weeks ago when Martinez, Casemiro and Shaw returned from injury (13/1). I just cashed out the bet (now 7/2) as Martinez, Shaw and now Hojlund are gone for a while. The lack of depth is just too big to have any faith that results will continue in the recent good vein.

Do feel sorry for ETH, basically all season without his best players available together for any length of time.
 
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Chairman Steve said:
If we lost Mainoo for a considerable period of time now, we’d be totally fecked. At this point I wouldn’t be surprised if some Fulham shithouse clatters him on the weekend and does that.

I hope Brailsford’s audit involves a serious look at our medical and conditioning team. Every year for the past decade it feels like we have a plague of injuries. I feel like there’s been a good chunk of players who had good injury records before they joined us and left as sick notes. We got Zlatan badly injured and he barely ever got injured in his 15 years of playing before that.

Fecking Glazers and Woodward.
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Thank you. This is ultimately their fault for neglecting the club. Hopefully, under INEOS, our medical department gets a massive revamp. The culture at this club is awful and needs a huge improvement.
 
Samid said:
Previously all managers have been held accountable for injuries and rightly so. Sure the odd injury is bad luck but if there's a genuine crisis then questions have always been asked of the manager's methods in regards to training, games, rotation etc. But with the ETH crew nothing is ever his fault. Going full strength in 4 competitions for 60 games last season was always moronic and at it was going to catch up with us sooner or later. We're seeing the consequences of that this season.

Martinez keeps getting rushed back from injuries, and when he's clearly injured in a game is told to get back on until the injury is properly aggravated. And when we don't win games this sorry lot is quick to point out that we can't judge the manager because Martinez was missing.
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Martinez rushed back yet again and now more or less done for the season. Is anyone surprised?

And as always with this manager, nothing is ever his fault. On the contrary he's the victim for having to deal with injury prone players, poor structure, lack of funds etc.

If I was in Martinez/Shaw's camp I'd be advising them to get fit for the Copa/Euros. Don't follow the club's instructions because they'd want to rush you back for the final 2-3 games of the season and make you miss the tournaments.
 
Most likely we will lose the next 2 matches and that will be that for CL. So all we have left is the FA Cup. Even more depressing is the certainty of playing without any spark, little skill, and little teamwork.

ETH out please.
 
Having a squad that's not been physically up to the task this year, with the plus points being 3 inexperienced players barely out of their teens, tells you everything you need to know about the current position in the table.
 
At some point you have to question how much "luck" (or being unlucky in this case) is involved in these injuries, and how much is down to our own incompetence / play style / environment.
 
Please keep saying ETH has had really bad luck with injuries but to some degree a lot of it isn't about luck.
  • In our successful seasons we shut out games by 60 mins allowing for key players to be subbed off
  • Any players who aren't subbed off can have an easier time in the game under these circumstances where we can play keep ball and pickup chances as the opposition tires
  • All of our players except Mainoo (and Erikson) treat the ball like a hot potato and get rid of it as quick as they can, but ironically our buildup play is still amazingly laboured
  • Being able to rotate also keeps our bench involved and in-form
  • With the massive gaps associated with our 4-1-5 formation our 6 and our back line particularly is working for the full 100 mins each game
  • We are rushing defenders particularly back and then quickly see them injured again
Looking at our back line (EDIT: who can play at CB!) we currently have Varane, Martinez, Shaw, Evans, Maguire, Lindelof. Six options of which three of them cannot play a high line. Please swap out at least two of those this summer. We might even need another if Varane goes.
 
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Paul778 said:
Please keep saying ETH has had really bad luck with injuries but to some degree a lot of it isn't about luck.
  • In our successful seasons we shut out games by 60 mins allowing for key players to be subbed off
  • Any players who aren't subbed off can have an easier time in the game under these circumstances where we can play keep ball and pickup chances as the opposition tires
  • All of our players except Mainoo (and Erikson) treat the ball like a hot potato and get rid of it as quick as they can, but ironically our buildup play is still amazingly laboured
  • Being able to rotate also keeps our bench involved and in-form
  • With the massive gaps associated with our 4-1-5 formation our 6 and our back line particularly is working for the full 100 mins each game
  • We are rushing defenders particularly back and then quickly see them injured again
Looking at our back line we currently have Varane, Martinez, Shaw, Evans, Maguire, Lindelof. Six options of which three of them cannot play a high line. Please swap out at least two of those this summer. We might even need another if Varane goes.
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Excellent post.
 
Paul778 said:
Please keep saying ETH has had really bad luck with injuries but to some degree a lot of it isn't about luck. [...]
Looking at our back line we currently have Varane, Martinez, Shaw, Evans, Maguire, Lindelof. ({Dalot + Wan Bissaka - added}) Six options of which three of them cannot play a high line. Please swap out at least two of those this summer. We might even need another if Varane goes.
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Christ. That's an astonishingly bad back line isn't it really. Shaw is the only one in that back line I would keep, for what it's worth, alongside possibly Varane. For me the jury is still out on Martinez and other than Harry Maguire, the rest wouldn't get a game for any other club in the Premier league.

I could be in the minority that thinks Onana has had a good season and has been left seriously exposed by some criminal football by our back line at times. You've missed out Dalot and Wan Bissaka who absolutely can play a high line, but besides the odd game neither has really kicked on this season or any other either. You could tell me the lot had been replaced by West Ham or Brentfords back line and not a lot would change - given that those players have cost hundreds of millions that's really not acceptable.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
Which positions and for how long though? Our clear issue has been essentially having no CBs/LBs and no depth at CF.
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Their entire first choice backline was out against us, we were missing Shaw, Malacia and Martinez and nobody else basically.
 
Paul778 said:
Please keep saying ETH has had really bad luck with injuries but to some degree a lot of it isn't about luck.
  • In our successful seasons we shut out games by 60 mins allowing for key players to be subbed off
  • Any players who aren't subbed off can have an easier time in the game under these circumstances where we can play keep ball and pickup chances as the opposition tires
  • All of our players except Mainoo (and Erikson) treat the ball like a hot potato and get rid of it as quick as they can, but ironically our buildup play is still amazingly laboured
  • Being able to rotate also keeps our bench involved and in-form
  • With the massive gaps associated with our 4-1-5 formation our 6 and our back line particularly is working for the full 100 mins each game
  • We are rushing defenders particularly back and then quickly see them injured again
Looking at our back line we currently have Varane, Martinez, Shaw, Evans, Maguire, Lindelof. Six options of which three of them cannot play a high line. Please swap out at least two of those this summer. We might even need another if Varane goes.
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I'm by no means saying ETH is doing well but not sure these points really hold up.
  • We had a superb squad and could do that because the overall quality in our team was much higher, in the same way City or Arsenal can likely do that against most teams. Not sure this is a fair criticism of us tactically as it's just unrealistic for most games.
  • Name a team who can play in this way apart from City and arguably Arsenal, they don't exist. We should manage games better - absolutely - but there's no way you can play 30mins and take your foot off the gas. Being a possession heavy team is more intensive off the ball than being a counter attacking team for the most part given so many teams now press.
  • All of ETH's signings that he knew actually are good enough with the ball - Antony, Amrabat, Martinez, Onana, Malacia, Mount then plus the two you mentioned. The issue is the quality of the signings in other areas has been poor. The biggest offenders for hot potato are players he inherited like Rashford and Bruno.
  • Our bench is really low quality, of course we 'could' rotate more but we'd be even worse most likely. This also happened with Ole and Mou because we just didn't have the depth.
  • This myth about our play style needs to die. We are not running more than others, we're bang average across all the key stats. This is from just before the xmas break , feel free to find a more recent one.Sky article on running stats
  • This one is true.
The issue we have now with assessing ETH is the catch 22 of would he do better without so many injuries (I'd say obviously yes purely based of the gap in quality of starters versus bench players) but we simply don't know how much better or if we'd play any differently. The latter point being the main area of frustration along with the Antony signing.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
Ok so one game, how long were they out?
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What does that have to do with anything? Does it matter? They were gone in the game we played them and they embarrassed us in all but the scoreline (through dumb luck). They've been one of the most out of form sides in Europe since November. Having 2 players out doesn't mean it's acceptable to play like shit
 
GazTheLegend said:
Christ. That's an astonishingly bad back line isn't it really. Shaw is the only one in that back line I would keep, for what it's worth, alongside possibly Varane. For me the jury is still out on Martinez and other than Harry Maguire, the rest wouldn't get a game for any other club in the Premier league.

I could be in the minority that thinks Onana has had a good season and has been left seriously exposed by some criminal football by our back line at times. You've missed out Dalot and Wan Bissaka who absolutely can play a high line, but besides the odd game neither has really kicked on this season or any other either. You could tell me the lot had been replaced by West Ham or Brentfords back line and not a lot would change - given that those players have cost hundreds of millions that's really not acceptable.
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Sorry. When I said back line I meant players who can play for us at CB - I realise Shaw is included there which may have confused things, but last season he was our 3rd best CB.

I think the jury is out whether our FBs could play a whole season in a high line. But it's the CBs mainly who are the limiting factor for us in this regard - the current ones definately cannot. The FBs might be able to.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
Looks like we are as lazy as each other. I just assume the answer will be 'not as bad as United' but could well be wrong.
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I’d assume the same, but I always find comparisons like that very difficult to make any meaningful inferences from. Whatever you might think of Maguire, Evans, Lindelof, Kambwala for example, Brentford would absolutely tear your hand off if offered those four as your 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th choice centre backs.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
Ok so one game, how long were they out?
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2 have been long-term and 2 a month or so. Rico Henry has been out since mid-September, Aaron Hickey since the end of October, Ben Mee and Ethan Pinnock mid/end of February.
 
I'm thrilled with 6th given the performances, it massively flatters how well Utd have played.
 
NicolaSacco said:
I’d assume the same, but I always find comparisons like that very difficult to make any meaningful inferences from. Whatever you might think of Maguire, Evans, Lindelof, Kambwala for example, Brentford would absolutely tear your hand off if offered those four as your 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th choice centre backs.
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IRN-BRUno said:
2 have been long-term and 2 a month or so. Rico Henry has been out since mid-September, Aaron Hickey since the end of October, Ben Mee and Ethan Pinnock mid/end of February.
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Oh of course, I don't think there's an argument about player quality. Thank you IRN for the context. Would be interesting to see that table that was going round with all clubs injuries how it compares because ours does seem the worst we've had in my memory. Maybe it's not but that is the feeling I get.

I guess the obvious question then is has it also affected Brentford massively and looking at the league, I guess the answer is 'yes'? Given they were top 10 last season with 59 points and are currently dangerously close to relegation on 27 points. Although Toney's ban has obviously compounded things. Either way he was out for a long time as well so you can treat him almost like an injury in terms of impact.
 
Bobski said:
I'm thrilled with 6th given the performances, it massively flatters how well Utd have played.
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Totally agree with this, we should be 10-13th based on performances. So right now I’d settle for finishing 6th, knowing that we will definitely pay Europa League next year unless Coventry win the FA Cup and using the extra 12-17 games in that competition to give 2 or 3 Youth players a road to the first team. Both Shea Lacey and Harry Amas will be 17, Jack Fletcher the same and Briancheri, Wheatley and Musa close to 18.

I’d like to see the best two promoted and get league and Europa Cup football. Then the season after get Kai Rooney and Ibragimov involved.
 
If people are interested I’m happy to do a final mid season update tomorrow? Colours and all?
 
Who's Kissing Cameras? said:
Like everyone said, based on performances we should be 12th.
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