What? I never said this, I am arguing that we have Evans because there was no money left in the bank. We did have a money for 3x overpaid right winger and 3rd #10 in the club though. So I feel this "it's not ETH squad" is an excuse, just very weak.
I don't mind Evans as 5th choice CB, but you have to consider he's 4th Centre Back that prevents ETH from implementing his "style" (added to Varane, Maguire, and Lindelof). If you can't play football without elite on the ball centreback and left back, maybe you prioritise them as signing instead of going for another #10 (especially since apparently Mainoo was key element in ETH plan this season, as this thread also suggests). This is all consequence of other choices.
Right Winger was not a priority signing, we already had Sancho, Pellistri, even Bruno, maybe Garnacho + Amad close. It was managers decision to go big for RW, and it was definitely ETH decision to go for Antony. Again, it has serious consequences, and it makes this "he wasn't backed in the transfer window" excuse weak as well.
But you’re arguing he’s a Ten Hag signing or player as if he’s a top choice.
It’s no more Ten Hags squad than it is Ole’s at this point. What it should be is United’s and we build towards a philosophy of playing.
The injuries we’ve had have prevented the few players capable of playing the more progressive style we want from being available.
Im not saying he hasn’t been backed Im saying key parts of his plan that he did sign aren’t available so the changes he wants to make with personnel are going to be slower.
Great post. I know we are moving away from the injury conversation but fans need to avoid looking at this as a binary "should ETH stay or go?" The importance of a manager grows when the structure above them is so poor, now that we are seemingly hiring intelligent football people in those positions, our squad should be run to the point were any high end manager will get us challenging for titles. I hate to put emphasis on City but they have been the benchmark for 10 years. They have challenged and won titles under Manchini, Pellegrini and Pep, of course Pep has put them on a new stratosphere but we wouldn't be falling over ourselves to hire the other two to replace ETH. The Idea is that whether or not ETH is good enough isn't really relevant anymore. If he's not we find the person who is.
Watch City‘s game against Everton. Two shots on goal, two goals. They looked stale all game and can imagine the moaning if we played like that (2015/16 start of the season: we were winning but the fans were not happy).
Our style: if all works reasonably well, we play through the opponent and create chances from skillful movement and decision making of our wingers, fb and midfielders. If the attack stalls, recycle and go again. If we lose the ball, gegenpress. If that fails, rest defence.
I agree about Ole‘s good period: he made good use of the players available. The difference with Ten Hag is the build up from the back.
Out of jail card for Ten Hag: nah, he is facing a lot of pressure and so far is dealing with it. The pressure is on, there is no out of jail card.
To be precise, they had 3 shots on goal out of 19 total. They have also limited Everton to basically no threat. Anyway, it has proven to be an effective style over years so I am not going to invest too much time into that discussion. If you don't like their style, that's fine, but it is bloody effective.
I don't understand how this description of "our style" differs from any other team that is aspiring for the top. We do press high, but we are also not effective in this pressing, so hard to praise this approach (it's like praising a player for taking a lot of shots from any random position - something will go in just because of the volume, but usually you just lose the ball). We don't really play out from the back any better compared to Ole days, apart from when Martinez plays, but that seems to be the ONLY difference (we used to rely on Shaw a lot to bring the ball out of defense to midifeld).
One could argue that the OP isn't showing the full picture, because Ten Hag didn't always pick players even if they were available, and it's a squad game, and similar points. That's all true, but then leads to the point that United's squad is still horribly imbalanced from about a decade of frequent stylistic change (from one coach to another) and scattershot transfer policy.
True, Ten Hag's period did not improve that as much as it could have (whether or not Ten Hag is solely to blame for that), but either way, the fact remains that United's squad makes little sense, as the backups are often nothing like the starting XI players that they're supposed to be able to fill in for. In that context, I would agree that finally installing properly capable people in the football structure should be United's priority, ideally before anything else happens in terms of the coach or even player transfers.
I'll add that I agree that, despite these issues, Ten Hag should probably still have instilled a more coherent style on the team (that then just wouldn't always work out as well, depending on the players available), but that's a topic for a different thread. This one is about first XI availability, and by extension about squad strength - and I think the OP and subsequent discussion make clear what a mess United have been in, in that regard.
Based on a discussion in the Erik Ten Hag thread I present in my view the biggest reason we've failed to perform consistently at a high level whilst other teams haven't suffered as much in the top 6.
Each side in the Top 6 (Liverpool, City, Arsenal, Spurs, Villa and United) have been broken down player by player into their % mins in the PL also with their (in my opinion) best XI and a brief comment as to how this looks in terms of key player losses and who has played in their stead. It also take a small look into the future in some cases with current injuries.
75% or above 50% to 74% 0% to 49%
* = GK or additional circumstance (e.g. Loan)
Liverpool Alisson 88%
Trent 75% Van Dijk 89%Konate 53%Robertson 40% Mac Allister 68% Jones 43% Szobozslai 77%
Salah 81%____________Díaz 69%
Núñez 66%
The only position up for debate here is Jones but as you can see Liverpool's overall availability taking into account rotations is healthy. The best players, Salah, Van Dijk, Alisson, Szobozslai and Trent all have played at least 3/4 of the PL season minutes to date with Robertson and Thiago arguably the only significant players absent through injury for a longer period. The rest of the squad has been used more in rotation as and when. Joe Gomez is the player who I wouldn't consider in the strongest XI but has played more minutes than Robertson. Injury wise Matip is ACL so out for the season, Szobozsali has a hamstring issue but could be back next week and Thiago is unlikely to return anytime soon but its not a 'big big injury', Trent has a knee issue unsure if he will or won't play on it and Salah has a thigh injury but could return this week.
Alisson 88% Kelleher 13%*
Adrian 0%*
TAA 75% Bradley 7%
Van Dijk 89% Konate 53%
Joe Gomez 54% Matip 36%
Quansah 16%
Robertson 40%
Tsimikas 31%
Mac Allister 68% Endo 38%
Bajcetic 0%
Szoboszlai 77% Jones 43%
Thiago 0%
Gravenberch 38%
Salah 81% Diaz 69% Jota 47%
Gakpo 43%
Elliot 26%
Doak 1%
Núñez 66%
Manchester City Ederson 92%
Walker 92% Dias 76%Ake 66% Gvardiol 71% Rodri 83% De Brunye 11%Bernardo 73% Foden 90% Haaland 72% Doku 52%
Now there could be arguments made for the inclusion of several players here such is the strength in depth of the Man City squad but even allowing for any change you'd choose to make the only long term injuries have been De Brunye (massive of course) and Stones. The rest have been used in rotation as you would expect with a squad as strong as City's. I'd say they are the 2nd least affected side by injuries in the top 6. The only positions I consider up for debate in this starting XI are Doku and Ake. Álvarez is actually the most played outfield player with 94% mins played and would be the one to replace De Brunye in the most played XI. Currently no players are significantly injured Kovacic has a knock, Gvardiol being assessed and Grealish a hip issue being assessed.
Ederson 92% Ortega 8%*
Carson 0%*
Walker 92% Lewis 22%
Dias 76% Aké 66% Stones 29% Akanji 64%
Gvardiol 71% Gomez 1%
Rodri 83% Kovacic 42%
Nunes 30%
De Brunye 11% Bernardo Silva 73%
Foden 90% Doku 52% Grealish 34%
Bobb 6%
Haaland 72% Álvarez 94%
Arsenal Raya 83%
White 84% Saliba 100% Gabriel 84%Zinchenko 66% Rice 96%
Ødegaard 87%Havertz 67% Saka 92%Jesus 51% Martinelli 72%
Arsenal's first choice XI feels a bit more clear cut but I would accept an argument for Partey over Havertz. Regardless you can see they've had their best XI available the majority of the season the only exception being Jesus who still have over 1/2 the available minutes for Arsenal. Partey and Timber stand out as longer injuries to squad players but beyond that they've not been hit too badly. Saliba 100% is mind boggling considering his role! Timber is expected back April, Zinchenko has a calf issue but could be back this week, Partey has a hamstring issue no idea when back, Vieira is back in the next few weeks and Jesus has a knee problem but could be back within days too.
Raya 83% Ramsdale 21%
Hein 0%*
White 84% Tomiyasu 29%
Soares 1%
Saliba 100%
Gabriel 84% Timber 2%
Kiwor 20%
Zinchenko 66%
Rice 96% Partey 12%
Jorginho 23%
Elneny 1%
Ødegaard 87% Havertz 67% Vieira 11%
Smith Rowe 10%
Martinelli 72% Trossard 38%
Saka 92% Nelson 6%
Jesus 51% Nketiah 47%
Tottenham Hotspur Vicario 100%
Porro 96% Romero 71% van de Ven 60%Udogie 82% Sarr 59% Bissouma 58% Kulusevski 86%Maddison 53%Son 80% Richardson 59%
The Spurs midfield pairing is very much up for debate so argue amongst yourselves as to who you'd swap in but this myth of Spurs injuries have been as bad across the season just isn't statistically true. They have absolutely been impacted by losing Maddison but beyond that the loss isn't anywhere near our levels. They are I'd say the 2nd most affected by injuries out of the top 6. No major injuries to report currently but Lo Celso back this week, Solomon out for the foreseeable with knee issues and Sessegnon no idea.
Aston Villa Martinez 96%
Konsa 93%Carlos 54%Torres 70%
Cash 69%Kamara 77% Luiz 91%Digne 71% McGinn 95% Diaby 68%Watkins 98%
Aston Villa are very hard to pin to a formation so I've tried my best to show what I believe is in Emery's mind the best mix of players in roughly the right places. So don't shoot me! The only notable lower % player is Carlos but with Konsa able to play RCB/CB and Cash they've rotated well. Diaby has been rotated with Bailey for their pacey outlet option so overall looking very healthy with key players like Martinez, Konsa, Luis, McGinn and Watkins all in the 90+% bracket. Mings is long term injured but not a player any Villa fan would consider in their best XI. They have more recently picked up injuries and I would expect them to struggle more now with Kamara and Cash out. Kamara is out long term knee, Buendia is in recovery (knee) our for the season likely, Mings similar, Konsa likely out for 3/4 weeks.
Manchester United Onana 100%
Dalot 89% Varane 42% Martinez 26% Shaw 43%
Casemiro 42% Mainoo 36% Garnacho 66% Bruno 96% Rashford 76% Højlund 64%
Now we can debate Dalot vs AWB, I've gone Dalot because he's had the most minutes and so as not to be accused of trying to hide high % playing 'starters', and I've opted Varane over Maguire but I'd argue Varane is better and it's only a 5% difference in minutes share.
When you consider Mainoo's minutes would likely have gone to Mount while injured we've been really royally fecked over by injuries. Look at us compared to the top 6 sides.
Dealing with some level of injury is absolutely to be expected but 5 of what many would consider our best XI haven't played more than 57% of our PL matches so far this season. Our best CB has missed 3/4 of the season so far and looks to be missing even more. And we've been without our best midfield pairing for 64% of the season. Now add in Champions League, League Cup and FA cup fixtures and you can see why we might have found it difficult.
The impact injuries have had on our defence is unprecedented we have one player (Dalot) who has been able to play 50%+ of our games.
In midfield due to injuries and fitness we've had to rely on McTominay for 56% of our game time but with the squad back and fit you can see his role is reduced to clutch player (impact sub).
Our record since having most players back has been 4 wins in 4. But we have Martinez out until April earliest, Martial out till April, Malacia expected back end of Feb/Early march, Shaw hopefully back this weekend. Mount also back hopefully next week. Wan Bissaka out for the foreseeable.
Spurs did their part today Fulham gave Villa (who are going through a bit of an injury run of their own) a good game as well. I think top 4 is still open to us if we want it and play for it - Just 6 points between us and spurs now with a game in hand.
Spurs did their part today Fulham gave Villa (who are going through a bit of an injury run of their own) a good game as well. I think top 4 is still open to us if we want it and play for it - Just 6 points between us and spurs now with a game in hand.
Spurs did their part today Fulham gave Villa (who are going through a bit of an injury run of their own) a good game as well. I think top 4 is still open to us if we want it and play for it - Just 6 points between us and spurs now with a game in hand.
I fully agree, it's ours to lose rather than theirs to gain. If we go on and lose tomorrow, we're back to square one. But we've got a realistic shot at top 4 if we play properly.
We are going to use this excuse again today, aren't we? Luton aggregated xG 1,13 in 45 mins against Luton, we had 41% possession - with only Martinez missing.
Maybe if your game plan relies on elite on the ball players and otherwise your team can't play football, then it isn't a very good plan.
We are going to use this excuse again today, aren't we? Luton aggregated xG 1,13 in 45 mins against Luton, we had 41% possession - with only Martinez missing.
Maybe if your game plan relies on elite on the ball players and otherwise your team can't play football, then it isn't a very good plan.
Oh come on we had a good game, finishing let us down massively today as well with 5-6 clear cut chances wasted on top of the 2 goals - This against a team who have won with 1 goal margins at Kenilworth Road against Spurs, Chelski, City and Arsenal on top of drawing against Liverpool and beating Newcastle. Not a perfect game by any means, but enough to enjoy the win for me.
It was only a tough away win because we are pretty horribly coached. We had a 2 goal lead gifted after 7 minutes. A well coached team controls that game, keeps the ball, limits them to below 10 shots, and just dominates the game like Liverpool, Arsenal and city did. Ten Hags garbage system leads to a basketball game even against lower league opposition. It's pathetic. I don't care about league position this year. I want to see quality coaching, reasons for us to be optimistic that we can play a dominant style of play and actually become a top team. As it is, it's just end to end against whoever and hope our players get the job done. It's the reason why we're horrible against big teams, it's the reason why our form plummeted with injuries more than other teams.
The moaning will stop once our performances aren't shit. It is really quite simple.
We are going to use this excuse again today, aren't we? Luton aggregated xG 1,13 in 45 mins against Luton, we had 41% possession - with only Martinez missing.
Maybe if your game plan relies on elite on the ball players and otherwise your team can't play football, then it isn't a very good plan.
We didn't want to blow them away with possession because they are very dangerous on the counter. It was a fine plan, with 2.81xg for us and 1. 76xg against.
You're now just crying for the sake of it, it's pretty sad.
It was only a tough away win because we are pretty horribly coached. We had a 2 goal lead gifted after 7 minutes. A well coached team controls that game, keeps the ball, limits them to below 10 shots, and just dominates the game like Liverpool, Arsenal and city did. Ten Hags garbage system leads to a basketball game even against lower league opposition. It's pathetic. I don't care about league position this year. I want to see quality coaching, reasons for us to be optimistic that we can play a dominant style of play and actually become a top team. As it is, it's just end to end against whoever and hope our players get the job done. It's the reason why we're horrible against big teams, it's the reason why our form plummeted with injuries more than other teams.
The moaning will stop once our performances aren't shit. It is really quite simple.
Facking hell imagine winning a game away, again, and hearing the same shite about circumstantial things favouring the team and no credit being given to the manager.
I've seen shit house posts like these after Wolves away, West Ham, Luton, even Villa on the last game.
The blue balls is real with some fans. I'm sure you're waiting to burst the second we drop points again but just try holding on a bit longer.
We are going to use this excuse again today, aren't we? Luton aggregated xG 1,13 in 45 mins against Luton, we had 41% possession - with only Martinez missing.
Maybe if your game plan relies on elite on the ball players and otherwise your team can't play football, then it isn't a very good plan.
I don't believe such people exist. Nevermind the fact that we need no excuses having won the match, created significantly more than the opposition, and gained ground on the teams around us.
I also wonder if people actually know what possession is. The fact that Luton played more passes than us means nothing when it gets them one big chance versus our four.
We didn't want to blow them away with possession because they are very dangerous on the counter. It was a fine plan, with 2.81xg for us and 1. 76xg against.
You're now just crying for the sake of it, it's pretty sad.
Doesn't look like we were effective at preventing Luton to create chances.
We deserved to win, but it was another horrible performance with almost full squad available.
It's not injuries that prevent us from playing good football at the moment.
Facking hell imagine winning a game away, again, and hearing the same shite about circumstantial things favouring the team and no credit being given to the manager.
I've seen shit house posts like these after Wolves away, West Ham, Luton, even Villa on the last game.
The blue balls is real with some fans. I'm sure you're waiting to burst the second we drop points again but just try holding on a bit longer.
Facking hell imagine winning a game away, again, and hearing the same shite about circumstantial things favouring the team and no credit being given to the manager.
I've seen shit house posts like these after Wolves away, West Ham, Luton, even Villa on the last game.
The blue balls is real with some fans. I'm sure you're waiting to burst the second we drop points again but just try holding on a bit longer.
Doesn't look like we were effective at preventing Luton to create chances.
We deserved to win, but it was another horrible performance with almost full squad available.
It's not injuries that prevent us from playing good football at the moment.
Shaw wasn't fully fit enough as shown by the sub before HT. Licha is out too, but yeah there were elements that we certainly could have controlled better.
That being said I think our game plan was to soak and hit rather than try and blow them away. Liverpool and Arsenal tried and failed with what appeared an obvious approach.
We weren't superb today, there was a 30 min spell where we were poor. But the entire performance certainly wasn't horrible. That's just overkill.
The last 30mins of the first half by all means moan about. But the other 60+ minutes of that game we were by far the better side and but for the finishing of Garnacho and Bruno we could have come off there 1-4 minimum.
Luton play really well on the counter so trying to defend high wouldn’t make sense.
I thought we were competent except for the last 30 mins of the first half tbh, just didn't have our finishing boots today and made it harder for ourselves. On another day we could've finished 5,6-1 and this conversation would be very different. The best we can do is to take the lessons from this, which is to control the game a bit more right after getting a 2 goal lead, and to be more clinical with our finishing.
We're unbeaten with Hojlund, Rashford, and Garnacho starting together, versus losing 50% of our matches when they don't, with 2.4 goals per game compared to 1. Hopefully they all stay fit and we can keep the run going.
The last 30mins of the first half by all means moan about. But the other 60+ minutes of that game we were by far the better side and but for the finishing of Garnacho and Bruno we could have come off there 1-4 minimum.
Luton play really well on the counter so trying to defend high wouldn’t make sense.
It was only a tough away win because we are pretty horribly coached. We had a 2 goal lead gifted after 7 minutes. A well coached team controls that game, keeps the ball, limits them to below 10 shots, and just dominates the game like Liverpool, Arsenal and city did. Ten Hags garbage system leads to a basketball game even against lower league opposition. It's pathetic. I don't care about league position this year. I want to see quality coaching, reasons for us to be optimistic that we can play a dominant style of play and actually become a top team. As it is, it's just end to end against whoever and hope our players get the job done. It's the reason why we're horrible against big teams, it's the reason why our form plummeted with injuries more than other teams.
The moaning will stop once our performances aren't shit. It is really quite simple.
I’m firmly in the ETH out camp. However another 3 points today and we really have given ourselves a big chance of CL footy next season. Why can some on here not just enjoy the win ? Spurs dropped points Newcastle as well. Villa look shakey and have bad injuries to contend with. We also have no Europe to bother with. Hopefully players coming back to strengthen team. Things are looking better no?
I dunno, conceding 20 shots a game isn't competent to me. We give up far too much space. You can be a transition focused team without doing that. Plus you just need to dominate games against a certain level of opposition. It's ok to have these games now and then. To have them all of the time is the sign of a bad team IMO.
I don't want Pep ball. I do want us to learn how to control games. I want us to become a good team. Being end to end and conceding 20 shots per game is I promise you not what Ten Hag is trying to do. I worry he's not able to implement the control part though.
I dunno, conceding 20 shots a game isn't competent to me. We give up far too much space. You can be a transition focused team without doing that. Plus you just need to dominate games against a certain level of opposition. It's ok to have these games now and then. To have them all of the time is the sign of a bad team IMO.
I don't want Pep ball. I do want us to learn how to control games. I want us to become a good team. Being end to end and conceding 20 shots per game is I promise you not what Ten Hag is trying to do. I worry he's not able to implement the control part though.
Sure. But whatever we are doing in training is not working well. That's an insane amount of shots to concede on a weekly basis. Someone posted the stat, but Klopp's Liverpool have only conceded 20+ shots twice during his what, 8 years there? We concede that every week. That is pure neglect from the coaching aspect to have that every week.
You can be a transition based team that controls smaller games. You can be a transition based team that doesn't let the opposition get free runs at your defence, that doesn't have 60% possession and as many shots as you on a weekly basis. And if this is his actual plan, then it's an even further concern because it has 0 chance of being an actual top team. There's just far too much variance in that style of play.
️
Fulham gave Villa (who are going through a bit of an injury run of their own) a good game as well. I think top 4 is still open to us if we want it and play for it - Just 6 points between us and spurs now with a game in hand.