UPDATED!!! United vs Top 6 - An Injury/Availability Analysis - Still Happy With 6th?

[wolvored]

6th is a disgrace for a supposed top club in world football, injuries or not.
Cant TH dig some out from the youth, or train other players to fulfill other roles like Shaw was used for?
Every team gets injuries, yet we seem to suffer more than most apparently with ours. Why is that?
There are 7 teams with 8 or more first team injuries including Villa. We have 9 as do Palace, Newcastle and Luton11 and Liverpool have 7. Injuries are expected over a season and you build a squad for that.
Fergie played Carrick Keane and Fletcher in the back, probably others I cant think of at this time off the top of my head.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Emi

Cash Konsa Pau Torres Digne

McGinn Luiz Kamara Ramsey

Bailey Watkins

If they were all available from this season's regulars and we made the Europa conference final that's what we'd do with but Kamara and Ramsey had season ending injuries so Tielemans and Rogers would come in judging on how we've played recently.

Brighton hmmmm....

Steele, Milner, Dunk, Hecke, Estupinan, Gross, Gilmour, Enciso, March, Mitoma, Welbeck/Ferguson is roughly what they started the season with but Joao Pedro started becoming the regular CF around October. Also got De Zerbi basically rotating every other position.

Thanks for the above. If you had everyone fit what would it look like in terms of best XI?

Im curious how it would impact how I view your achievements so far this season (I think you’ve been fantastic and well worth your position so far).

Im not sure if Brighton have a strongest XI they’ve just got lots of good players that rotate really well. I’ll try and put it together tonight along with Newcastle for you.

Doesn't particularly surprise me. The top 5 have been more fortunate with keeping a core on the pitch.

My issue has always been with how bad the performances have been after taking the injuries into account. Not that I don't agree that injuries will have some impact.

Yeah so we can acknowledge and agree the top 5 have been able to play their best players more than we have.

I agree the performances we’ve had in many games have been concerning but the results haven’t been (in the sense we’re still on a pretty good run since Christmas wining more often than not)

And so I guess we’re at the point in development where do we accept poor performances with clearly the worst injury/selection of players used in the hopes that when fit, and with a window to add more robust and better suited squad/first team options, we’d expect better performance and therefore a higher league position?

Looking at our remaining fixtures, and how badly Ten Hag has fared against Newcastle and Brighton and Bournemouth especially, we will be lucky to get 10 points from the last 8 games.

That's not an exaggeration. So I'd say 8th at best.

So you’re not optimistic then?

 

[Dannn411]

The whole squad could be injured and it would still be a failure and an embarrassment to finish 6th. But with that said, our on-pitch troubles have very little to do with injuries. We were poor when they were all fit. We're as bad when they're not fit. We are just a really poor side top to bottom. Terrible players, an even worse manager.

 

[Jev]

It’s a strange way to do this. Mainoo is not on 48 percent because of injuries, but because he wasn’t always first-choice. Same with Garnacho and Varane. Surely the relevant metric is how many games the players were available for? But in terms of absolving ETH of blame, which after all is the point of the thread, I suppose this is the way to do it.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

6th is a disgrace for a supposed top club in world football, injuries or not.
Cant TH dig some out from the youth, or train other players to fulfill other roles like Shaw was used for?
Every team gets injuries, yet we seem to suffer more than most apparently with ours. Why is that?
There are 7 teams with 8 or more first team injuries including Villa. We have 9 as do Palace, Newcastle and Luton11 and Liverpool have 7. Injuries are expected over a season and you build a squad for that.
Fergie played Carrick Keane and Fletcher in the back, probably others I cant think of at this time off the top of my head.

I don’t think we are a top club in world football. Far from it in our current guise.

Looking over the entire season it’s clear we’ve been more affected and that the argument well other clubs have injuries doesn’t bear much relevance when the clubs above us are able to largely play their best teams in the majority of games this season.

Fergie also has years to build those squads, years of working with those players and was arguably the greatest ever manager in PL history. He didn’t do it for the sustained time of a season that we’ve had to, with an inferior squad. We were regularly one of the better squads in the league, even with everyone fit, I don’t think we’re close to Arsenal, City and Liverpool yet.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

It’s a strange way to do this. Mainoo is not on 48 percent because of injuries, but because he wasn’t always first-choice. Same with Garnacho and Varane. Surely the relevant metric is how many games the players were available for? But in terms of absolving ETH of blame, which after all is the point of the thread, I suppose this is the way to do it.

You cannot expect an 18 year old in their debut season to play every available minute especially after recovering from an injury that kept them out for 3 months was it?

Garnacho isn’t the player I’m arguing is the issue here. Our forward line is relatively ok but look at the whole squad drop downs and we have players like Evans and McTominay taking up minutes that they shouldn’t be when everyone is fit (but we’ve never had that luxury).

Availability is also very subjective. Look at how many players have come off the bench and got injured. A player may be “available” but unable to complete more than 10 mins so this studies the actual playing time so who has been able to physically be on the pitch making an impact.

We could argue over selection but that would be a very subjective debate. So here are the facts and interpret as you wish.

Im not absolving of all blame but providing the context behind my opinion that it’s not unreasonable for us to be in this position.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Beat Sheffield and Burnley at home. Maybe win 1 or 2 of the home games vs Liverpool, Arsenal, Newcastle.

But I dont see us winning jack shit away to Bournemouth, Palace and Brighton. Unless there's an interim manager.

We’ll see.

 

[Jev]

You cannot expect an 18 year old in their debut season to play every available minute especially after recovering from an injury that kept them out for 3 months was it?

Garnacho isn’t the player I’m arguing is the issue here. Our forward line is relatively ok but look at the whole squad drop downs and we have players like Evans and McTominay taking up minutes that they shouldn’t be when everyone is fit (but we’ve never had that luxury).

Availability is also very subjective. Look at how many players have come off the bench and got injured. A player may be “available” but unable to complete more than 10 mins so this studies the actual playing time so who has been able to physically be on the pitch making an impact.

We could argue over selection but that would be a very subjective debate. So here are the facts and interpret as you wish.

Im not absolving of all blame but providing the context behind my opinion that it’s not unreasonable for us to be in this position.

The problem with this method is that if a manager rotates a lot, or is undecided on his best 11, this would make it appear like he’d had a lot of injuries. For instance, some of those minutes to McT and Evans were given over players you’ve put in our best 11 (Mainoo and Varane). We all know we’ve been extremely unlucky with injuries this season but when you pick a method that makes it look even worse, and knowing your stance on ETH, it just feels like you’re trying to make excuses for him.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

The problem with this method is that if a manager rotates a lot, or is undecided on his best 11, this would make it appear like he’d had a lot of injuries. For instance, some of those minutes to McT and Evans were given over players you’ve put in our best 11 (Mainoo and Varane). We all know we’ve been extremely unlucky with injuries this season but when you pick a method that makes it look even worse, and knowing your stance on ETH, it just feels like you’re trying to make excuses for him.

If it feels that way that’s not something I can change. All I’m presenting is some factual data which I do think if you look throughout this thread I’ve tried to contextualise.

How many clubs above us would consider 18/19 year olds their best options and therefore starters? Teenagers need rotation.

Equally look at Varane this season. Do you think we could have demanded statistically significantly more minutes from him to be in the green for example when he’s barely scraped 50%?

The availability analysis is threadmarked in this thread so use those links. I’ve not hidden that data at all I didn’t know where to find it easily accessible and then @Laurencio showed it me.

My first reaction was to then thread mark and highlight it.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

@Jev use these and tell me what you think?

Thanks to @didz
Manchester United absences

Manchester City absences

Liverpool absences

Arsenal absences

Tottenham absences

Aston Villa absences

 

[Jev]

@Jev use these and tell me what you think?

Thanks to @didz
Manchester United absences

Manchester City absences

Liverpool absences

Arsenal absences

Tottenham absences

Aston Villa absences

Honestly I think it proves my point. The three players I highlighted as being misleading were Mainoo (48 %), Varane (50) and Garnacho (71). The former has been available for squad selection every game after week 9 (71 %), Varane has missed five games through injury (84), and Garnacho has been available for every single game. So I think it shows exactly what I was saying.

Now, that doesn’t mean we haven’t been very unlucky with injuries this season, we obviously have. The other side of that coin is that we’ve been incredibly lucky on the pitch, but that’s another discussion.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Honestly I think it proves my point. The three players I highlighted as being misleading were Mainoo (48 %), Varane (50) and Garnacho (71). The former has been available for squad selection every game after week 9 (71 %), Varane has missed five games through injury (84), and Garnacho has been available for every single game. So I think it shows exactly what I was saying.

Now, that doesn’t mean we haven’t been very unlucky with injuries this season, we obviously have. The other side of that coin is that we’ve been incredibly lucky on the pitch, but that’s another discussion.

Ok now why do you think Ten Hag rotated Mainoo, Varane and Garnacho when he did?

My opinion Mainoo is a teenager coming back from injury. You cannot rely on a teenager to run your midfield all season. None of the clubs above us do that.

Varane is injury prone so him being “available” on the bench isn’t the same as him being able to make a significant impact given playing him week in week out isn’t something his body is capable of.

Garnacho is also a teenager who didn’t have the best attitude to begin with. Since coming in he’s not lost his spot really but again we need to be mindful of the fact he’s a teenager too.

How many of the other top 6 clubs have a teenager starting the majority of their games in attack?

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Honestly I think it proves my point. The three players I highlighted as being misleading were Mainoo (48 %), Varane (50) and Garnacho (71). The former has been available for squad selection every game after week 9 (71 %), Varane has missed five games through injury (84), and Garnacho has been available for every single game. So I think it shows exactly what I was saying.

Now, that doesn’t mean we haven’t been very unlucky with injuries this season, we obviously have. The other side of that coin is that we’ve been incredibly lucky on the pitch, but that’s another discussion.

Also I think you’ll find if you look at the other clubs the availability of their players relative to ours is higher. I’m intrigued have you also seen this too or are you looking at us in isolation?

The way I presented this data was simple and easy to show (and has been done manually on mobile lol)

 

[Jev]

Ok now why do you think Ten Hag rotated Mainoo, Varane and Garnacho when he did?

My opinion Mainoo is a teenager coming back from injury. You cannot rely on a teenager to run your midfield all season. None of the clubs above us do that.

Varane is injury prone so him being “available” on the bench isn’t the same as him being able to make a significant impact given playing him week in week out isn’t something his body is capable of.

Garnacho is also a teenager who didn’t have the best attitude to begin with. Since coming in he’s not lost his spot really but again we need to be mindful of the fact he’s a teenager too.

How many of the other top 6 clubs have a teenager starting the majority of their games in attack?

It’s not so much a case of rotating. Mainoo and Garnacho were not part of his preferred 11 when the season began, we all know this, which is why they’ve gradually played more and more. But most of the times Garnacho wasn’t picked, for instance, ETH had his then-preferred RW (Anthony) available.

I don’t understand the relevance of your final question. One of the reasons we have two teenagers starting is that ETH’s transfers have been very poor. How is that a point in his defence?

 

[Jev]

Also I think you’ll find if you look at the other clubs the availability of their players relative to ours is higher. I’m intrigued have you also seen this too or are you looking at us in isolation?

The way I presented this data was simple and easy to show (and has been done manually on mobile lol)

Of course, we’ve been extremely hampered by injuries this season, I never disputed that, just said your method makes it look even worse for no reason (other than defending ETH).

 

[Jeppers7]

Of course, we’ve been extremely hampered by injuries this season, I never disputed that, just said your method makes it look even worse for no reason (other than defending ETH).

Or perhaps it just highlights a very real issue that has hampered us all season.

 

[E-mal]

It’s not so much a case of rotating. Mainoo and Garnacho were not part of his preferred 11 when the season began, we all know this, which is why they’ve gradually played more and more. But most of the times Garnacho wasn’t picked, for instance, ETH had his then-preferred RW (Anthony) available.

I don’t understand the relevance of your final question. One of the reasons we have two teenagers starting is that ETH’s transfers have been very poor. How is that a point in his defence?

Great post.
People making it seem he has been dealt a bad hand since football was invented are just being dishonest.
I will give the fact that our left back, Left CB and DM have been injured this season amongst those considered to be starters and he has had loads of players he has refused to use despite bringing them in.
My criticism of him is not so much in the winning of games but more of the fact we look clueless in both offense and defence and there is still no identity on how we want to play despite two seasons into his reign.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

It’s not so much a case of rotating. Mainoo and Garnacho were not part of his preferred 11 when the season began, we all know this, which is why they’ve gradually played more and more. But most of the times Garnacho wasn’t picked, for instance, ETH had his then-preferred RW (Anthony) available.

I don’t understand the relevance of your final question. One of the reasons we have two teenagers starting is that ETH’s transfers have been very poor. How is that a point in his defence?

Ten Hag has already said Mainoo would have been involved had he not been injured based on preseason. His injury delayed his introduction and the only other player capable of doing something similar (Mount) has been unavailable all season.

Garnacho was not first choice at the start of the season but my argument has never been that our attack has been significantly impacted by injury more so than any other club.

Transfers are not the sole responsibility of the manager but look at those other top 6 clubs none of them have had to be in the position of relying on one or two like we have.

Could you not also argue it’s great that he is promoting youth and in doing so still managing to be close to squads that are relying on more experienced, developed and physically capable players?

 

[tomaldinho1]

Definitely think it should help re-iterate that we’ve had nowhere near the consistency of other clubs who yes have had injury and rotation but clearly not the same level.

Pundits saying City had loads of injuries the other day did make me chuckle. Useful to see. Appreciate it’s an effort but am interested to see Brentford as well (was discussing in another thread and they might be one who have had it as bad as us).

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Of course, we’ve been extremely hampered by injuries this season, I never disputed that, just said your method makes it look even worse for no reason (other than defending ETH).

So you agree based on the availability criteria we’ve also had worse availability? So in what was has my argument (which I contextualise throughout the thread) just designed to defend?

It was designed to show how often the best XI has been playing based on % mins in the PL.

Great post.
People making it seem he has been dealt a bad hand since football was invented are just being dishonest.
I will give the fact that our left back, Left CB and DM have been injured this season amongst those considered to be starters and he has had loads of players he has refused to use despite bringing them in.
My criticism of him is not so much in the winning of games but more of the fact we look clueless in both offense and defence and there is still no identity on how we want to play despite two seasons into his reign.

Look at our availability vs others. Look at our said composition vs others.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Pundits saying City had loads of injuries the other day did make me chuckle. Useful to see. Appreciate it’s an effort but am interested to see Brentford as well (was discussing in another thread and they might be one who have had it as bad as us).

That’ll have to wait till end of season.

 

[tomaldinho1]

That’ll have to wait till end of season.

Consider my expectations managed. Appreciate the work.

 

[Jev]

So you agree based on the availability criteria we’ve also had worse availability?

Yes.

So in what was has my argument (which I contextualise throughout the thread) just designed to defend?

Because it makes it seem even worse than it is. As argued, injury isn’t the only explanation for a player not to be playing. The fact that we don’t have a settled first 11 like the teams you’re comparing us to will always make our numbers lower.

I simply think it’s a pretty useless metric, unless the point is to show that ETH has faced an impossible task.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Yes.



Because it makes it seem even worse than it is. As argued, injury isn’t the only explanation for a player not to be playing. The fact that we don’t have a settled first 11 like the teams you’re comparing us to will always make our numbers lower.

I simply think it’s a pretty useless metric.

If that was my intention, why would I at the first available opportunity thread mark and subsequently share to all the data in the way you requested that also shows the same point, that we have had it worse?

It was simply that at the time of me making this thread the only quick and easy way for me to find the data was using transfermarkt %mins.

You may think it’s useless, thanks.

 

[moses]

6th is a disgrace for a supposed top club in world football, injuries or not.
Cant TH dig some out from the youth, or train other players to fulfill other roles like Shaw was used for?
Every team gets injuries, yet we seem to suffer more than most apparently with ours. Why is that?
There are 7 teams with 8 or more first team injuries including Villa. We have 9 as do Palace, Newcastle and Luton11 and Liverpool have 7. Injuries are expected over a season and you build a squad for that.
Fergie played Carrick Keane and Fletcher in the back, probably others I cant think of at this time off the top of my head.

As things stand 4th was probably the best we could hope for. And while 6th might be a disgrace for a club of this size and resources, it's probably about right for a club with no regular left-back, one striker and a 36-year-old on a one-year deal getting games at CB. YOu've said yourself, we have a really poor squad with little or no depth in key areas.

 

[Jev]

If that was my intention, why would I at the first available opportunity thread mark and subsequently share to all the data in the way you requested that also shows the same point, that we have had it worse?

It was simply that at the time of me making this thread the only quick and easy way for me to find the data was using transfermarkt %mins.

You may think it’s useless, thanks.

I don’t think there has been any bad faith from your side and you’ve obviously put quite a bit of work into this, which is commendable. I just think we’re all subconsciously susceptible to focusing on stats that support our held beliefs. And just as you might argue it’s too narrow-sighted to highlight the number of shots we concede (as I might do) without taking into account the quality of said chances, I’m simply arguing why I don’t think this metric in itself is all that useful. Part of the point of this thread is to invite discussion on the merits of your arguments, no?

 

[mu4c_20le]

As things stand 4th was probably the best we could hope for. And while 6th might be a disgrace for a club of this size and resources, it's probably about right for a club with no regular left-back, one striker and a 36-year-old on a one-year deal getting games at CB. YOu've said yourself, we have a really poor squad with little or no depth in key areas.

What if I were to tell you that 6th actually flatters us, and that the stats suggest we should be 12-14th?

 

[AltiUn]

What if I were to tell you that 6th actually flatters us, and that the stats suggest we should be 12-14th?

The xG table has us at 15th and it goes some way to explaining why this season has felt so fecking miserable. It only has us 8 points above relegation, it’s an absolute disgrace.

 

[TrebleChamp99]

I want us to lose games so ETH gets sacked,
There’s no respectful league position left so I want his tenure to be untenable.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

I don’t think there has been any bad faith from your side and you’ve obviously put quite a bit of work into this, which is commendable. I just think we’re all subconsciously susceptible to focusing on stats that support our held beliefs. And just as you might argue it’s too narrow-sighted to highlight the number of shots we concede (as I might do) without taking into account the quality of said chances, I’m simply arguing why I don’t think this metric in itself is all that useful. Part of the point of this thread is to invite discussion on the merits of your arguments, no?

Ah I took you to be meaning you felt this was coming from a disingenuous position.

I’d disagree on the usefulness (obviously or I wouldn’t have bothered making this) on the principle that whether these players are getting minutes through injury (which is mainly our case here) or rotation they are the actual experienced squad not the conceptual one.

What I mean by that is proportionally we’ve played nowhere near our best XI and whilst “availability” also shows that we’ve been incapable of that I think it also hides the reality of Mainoo, Garnacho and Varane.

They aren’t peak physical players. They are two teens and a fading force. That is our squad. That is our team. That’s our United.

And that real United for me is very much not a contender, and would be sitting somewhere around 6th in theory and so too in practice.

 

[Sarni]

Said it in the other thread, you can debate injuries all you want but those claims that it’s ’shocking’ that we have barely had our best 11 available for one or two games are very misleading. It’s not shocking at all, if you look at other teams it’s basically impossible to have all your best players available at the same time. Arsenal have been massively lucky with injuries this year but otherwise none of the top 5 have been able to field their best XI at all this season.

If the whole premise is we cannot assess anyone before we have our best XI play several games in a row then this is likely not going to happen ever.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

.


Look at our availability vs others. Look at our said composition vs others.

Who fecking cares if the subsequent result is the same? It’s not like we looked brilliant with our first choice XI my god I’m so tired of these threads being rehashed endlessly.

Yes there would be a real case if our strongest sides put in far better performances than our weaker ones. But they don’t, so this is all a waste of breath

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Said it in the other thread, you can debate injuries all you want but those claims that it’s ’shocking’ that we have barely had our best 11 available for one or two games are very misleading. It’s not shocking at all, if you look at other teams it’s basically impossible to have all your best players available at the same time. Arsenal have been massively lucky with injuries this year but otherwise none of the top 5 have been able to field their best XI at all this season.

If the whole premise is we cannot assess anyone before we have our best XI play several games in a row then this is likely not going to happen ever.

I’ve never once said, suggested or otherwise that you need the whole XI always available all of the time. But you do need to see your best players regularly. You do to see the impact of a coach need to see his key signings on the pitch. Not Lindelof at LB, Evans at CB and Maguire/Varane.

The other top 5 have had access to their best players with far more consistency throughout the season than we have. It’s not about having the XI every week. It’s about the proportional impact of having them more often than not or most of them together.

Why do you think I set the benchmark for decent minutes as low as 50% and excellent as 75%? It takes into account the realistic prospect of minor injury and rotation.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Who fecking cares if the subsequent result is the same? It’s not like we looked brilliant with our first choice XI my god I’m so tired of these threads being rehashed endlessly.

Yes there would be a real case if our strongest sides put in far better performances than our weaker ones. But they don’t, so this is all a waste of breath

Our strongest side hasn’t been able to play even once all season. Let alone the majority of it be together at once on the pitch.

You need a few games together to get any of it to work.

 

[Sarni]

I’ve never once said, suggested or otherwise that you need the whole XI always available all of the time. But you do need to see your best players regularly. You do to see the impact of a coach need to see his key signings on the pitch. Not Lindelof at LB, Evans at CB and Maguire/Varane.

The other top 5 have had access to their best players with far more consistency throughout the season than we have. It’s not about having the XI every week. It’s about the proportional impact of having them more often than not or most of them together.

Why do you think I set the benchmark for decent minutes as low as 50% and excellent as 75%? It takes into account the realistic prospect of minor injury and rotation.

I think what we have faced is somewhat above average and a capable manager would have dealt with it just fine. Lindelof at LB etc are just outliers that happened once or twice, we have been able to field strong teams all season long.

No one ever has their best XI available much, or at all. Someone is always going to be injured. I see how this narrative is going to work for you with how fond of ETH and invested in him you are, and it’s easily twisted too as evidenced by claiming Garnacho has been out for a third of season and Mainoo has only been available for a third of it apparently (not to mention Varane, Maguire).

 

[Sarni]

Our strongest side hasn’t been able to play even once all season. Let alone the majority of it be together at once on the pitch.

You need a few games together to get any of it to work.

Yeah and City, Villa and Liverpool have not had their strongest side available once either. Neither have Newcastle, Brighton or pretty much 80% or so teams in the league, and the ones that have would have been able to do it just a few times anyway.

 

[Daydreamer]

Our strongest side hasn’t been able to play even once all season. Let alone the majority of it be together at once on the pitch.

You need a few games together to get any of it to work.

This is the case for every team, though. Timber and Partey have been out for pretty much the entire season. That's a fifth of our best outfielders, at least according to Arteta as demonstrated when he had them available for the opening game and picked them both in the starting lineup.

And it's true not just this season, but every season.

This Arsenal XI...

Henry Bergkamp
Pires Gilberto Vieira Ljungberg
Cole Campbell Toure Lauren
Lehmann

Started only two league games.

---

This United XI...

Yorke Cole
Giggs Keane Scholes Beckham
Irwin Stam Johnsen Neville
Schmeichel

Only started one.

---

And this England XI...

Rooney Owen
Scholes Lampard Gerrard Beckham
Cole Terry Ferdinand Neville
James

Never played together at all.

I think you've seriously over-indexed on the importance of of being able to put out your best team. It's incredibly rare and a Manager who's reliant upon a clean bill of health to produce a functioning team is severely limited and will always fail to build any sort of lasting success.

 

[Sarni]

This is the case for every team, though. Timber and Partey have been out for pretty much the entire season. That's a fifth of our best outfielders, at least according to Arteta as demonstrated when he had them available for the opening game and picked them both in the starting lineup.

And it's true not just this season, but every season.

This Arsenal XI...

Henry Bergkamp
Pires Gilberto Vieira Ljungberg
Cole Campbell Toure Lauren
Lehmann

Started only two league games.

---

This United XI...

Yorke Cole
Giggs Keane Scholes Beckham
Irwin Stam Johnsen Neville
Schmeichel

Only started one.

---

And this England XI...

Rooney Owen
Scholes Lampard Gerrard Beckham
Cole Terry Ferdinand Neville
James

Never played together at all.

I think you've seriously over-indexed on the importance of of being able to put out your best team. It's incredibly rare and a Manager who's reliant upon a clean bill of health to produce a functioning team is severely limited and will always fail to build any sort of lasting success.

Yeah exactly my point. You will hardly ever have all your 11 best players available which is what makes it such an easy argument to defend a manager who supposedly cannot cope without it.

 

[Lay]

This is the case for every team, though. Timber and Partey have been out for pretty much the entire season. That's a fifth of our best outfielders, at least according to Arteta as demonstrated when he had them available for the opening game and picked them both in the starting lineup.

And it's true not just this season, but every season.

This Arsenal XI...

Henry Bergkamp
Pires Gilberto Vieira Ljungberg
Cole Campbell Toure Lauren
Lehmann

Started only two league games.

---

This United XI...

Yorke Cole
Giggs Keane Scholes Beckham
Irwin Stam Johnsen Neville
Schmeichel

Only started one.

---

And this England XI...

Rooney Owen
Scholes Lampard Gerrard Beckham
Cole Terry Ferdinand Neville
James

Never played together at all.

I think you've seriously over-indexed on the importance of of being able to put out your best team. It's incredibly rare and a Manager who's reliant upon a clean bill of health to produce a functioning team is severely limited and will always fail to build any sort of lasting success.

That is the crux of it all. ETH needs everything in his favour for him to do well which just won't happen

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

I do think some of you are just being disingenuous. The facts are these:
1) Ten Hag has underperformed this season even with all the hands in play.
2) we have faced the most impactful injuries to any team across the league. The fact is we haven’t had our first choice defence out even once and perhaps more importantly, there’s been no possibility of continuity.
3) Our squad is the weakest in terms of depth in the top 6. When Martinez is out we are down to Lindelof, when shaw is out we are down to AWB left back. When Rashford isn’t firing we are down to, a 19 year old. You can’t simply ignore this fact . When arsenal miss timber they have White. When city miss De Bruyne they have Foden and silva. When Liverpool miss Matip they have Konate. It’s just a different league of squad quality and I think people are being seriously biased to pretend this wouldn’t have impacted on any manager.

Could we have still managed too 4 under another manager? Yeh perhaps, but I guarantee under the same circumstances as this season, manager would have us playing consistent swashbuckling football. Would pay for people to use abit of logic and not let emotions cloud it.