Unpopular Opinion | Not sacking Ten Hag

I did hear Ten Hag has a pretty rich family. Maybe rich enough to pay folks on the Caf to post for him and defend him? It’s hard to see how a United fan could rationally support him, or they’re actually a Ten Hag fan pretending to support United.

Kick all the players out, as if a large number of the players aren’t actually Ten Hag signings. So kick all the players out, but not the manager, an abject failure who signed them?
 
When was the last time a Manchester United manager finished a league season with negative GD? :lol:
 
Atheist said:
I did hear Ten Hag has a pretty rich family. Maybe rich enough to pay folks on the Caf to post for him and defend him? It’s hard to see how a United fan could rationally support him, or they’re actually a Ten Hag fan pretending to support United.

Kick all the players out, as if a large number of the players aren’t actually Ten Hag signings. So kick all the players out, but not the manager, an abject failure who signed them?
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For someone whose name is atheist that you would believe this is ironic.

I don’t know anyone on here who is a Ten Hag fan. I don’t know anyone on here who would be offended or upset if he left.

Some of us just don’t think he’s that bad and that there are more problems we need to get to the bottom of before we commit to considering him categorically one of them.
 
Atheist said:
I did hear Ten Hag has a pretty rich family. Maybe rich enough to pay folks on the Caf to post for him and defend him? It’s hard to see how a United fan could rationally support him, or they’re actually a Ten Hag fan pretending to support United.

Kick all the players out, as if a large number of the players aren’t actually Ten Hag signings. So kick all the players out, but not the manager, an abject failure who signed them?
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You've rumbled me, he didn't even have to pay me that much.
 
BenitoSTARR said:
For someone whose name is atheist that you would believe this is ironic.

I don’t know anyone on here who is a Ten Hag fan. I don’t know anyone on here who would be offended or upset if he left.

Some of us just don’t think he’s that bad and that there are more problems we need to get to the bottom of before we commit to considering him categorically one of them.
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Is it? It's not related to religion anyway and was hinting towards incredulity around the reasoning for supporting a manager who's not remotely humble or willing to learn from his mistakes.

Curious what level of bad is acceptable so that he can be sacked? Perhaps 8th place in the league with negative goal difference isn't too bad and maybe relegation to the championship is when the straw breaks the camel's back? None of this leeway was given to previous managers who got sacked and had better achievements (and rightly so).
 
stevoc said:
I don't know if Ineos will keep him or not, but the idea that there are no managers available to replace him is nonsense.
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There are managers available, but would a top manager want to risk walking into this mess of a squad. There will be departures, but not as many as some think. The season after next might show a clearer picture of where we actually want to go and style of play. Otherwise it might just be going for a manager who ends up as yet another stopgap. Ineos really might just want to see how ETH performs with the structure above him in a better place and if they get rid of certain players the manager wants out for whatever reason.
 
Winrar said:
When was the last time a Manchester United manager finished a league season with negative GD? :lol:
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Ferguson 89-90 -1, did badly in the league but scraped through to the FA Cup final and then won it after a season rife with specualtion he was going to get sacked.

Just like Ten Hag this year, it's a sign. :wenger:
 
Andersons Dietician said:
1 cup, 2 x Fa cup finals, last season best defensive record in the league. Then there are all the outside issues he has dealt with. This word incompetence again I’ll repeat how can anyone get much more out of this collection of players even without the injuries?




If you were asked to build a 2nd hand Lego set, but it wasn’t complete and you don’t have the money to buy all the parts you need in one go.
Then you’re told you can’t get the correct parts but you are given the option of these others parts that are cheap and can do a job but there not from the same Lego set what are you going to do? You can build the set as is but some parts don’t fit together and it just looks terrible till you get the other parts.

As for why I figured we’d struggle I just looked at the collection of players and realised that many of them are not fit for purpose and needed moving on and we needed other things.

We would never get the best out of Onana without a total rebuild of defence and midfield. He is encountering the same issues DeGea had with the playing out from the back and that is that defenders and midfield are lazy and don’t give options.

Mount has been injured and so has Malacia. Martinez looks like a good signing. Rasmus has been bought for the future. The only one that really we would be expecting more from is Antony and he has been utter crap and I just can’t see any way of building anything with him in. He has been a major flop but other than that the rest have been opportunistic signings or just people we need to have bodies in positions.

But I’ll repeat we need way more pieces of the puzzle as this is a proper rebuild we are in the middle of and I hope the people coming in aren’t as short sighted as some of the fans.

However if Ancelotti is available then boot ETH out but there aren’t any strong options out there to replace him.
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After finishing 3rd we added 200m worth of players without losing anybody we didn't want to lose. You cannot possibly convince me that "struggling for top 8" was a realistic expectation for this team. If it really is, then anybody who had slightest say in that transfer strategy should be sacked on the spot.
 
hobbers said:
1. Play a system that isn't utterly stupid and suicidal. One that doesn't have an enormous cavity in midfield, leaving the team endlessly exposed and forcing them all to kill themselves sprinting everywhere to close the gaps.
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The system fails in part because the defenders don’t step up leaving a massive gap, Bruno and McT only care about moving forward and don’t drop in to space to plug that space. Then they are lazy to get back. We also lose the ball too easily in stupid places because some players aren’t good enough. Don’t even want to get started on Rashford.

hobbers said:
2. Play in a way that doesn't expose all your players biggest weaknesses. In fact, try and do the opposite, play a system that works to your strengths. Insane idea, I know.
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I don’t disagree with this, I do think he should have adapted and probably gone back to Ole ball just to eek out the results but then we’d still have people asking for him to be sacked because of doing that. However I’m not really sure what the positives/ strength of this team are. Pretty much everything falls apart because most of them are lazy and unathletic. Throw in their tendency to lose the ball and it’s a disaster.

hobbers said:
3. Sort out training and fitness/recovery work so you dont injure another 3 players in training every week.
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Thats a hard thin to fix, we brought in Gary O’Driscoll last season to try and sort it and if anything it’s been worse. Cumalitive effect given we played the most games out of anyone last season, World Cup, Covid back log it’s been a hectic schedule for players so it’s mostly bad luck.

I saw a story that we are going to be building a new activation zone in an attempt to try and limit injuries but I’m not sure why they need that when any flat surface would really do.

However in the story I read Odrisccol has requested we hire younger people for Physio and medical positions as they are more familiar with modern techniques and that Carrington and members of the back room are out of date. So there is that.

hobbers said:
4. Find some charisma and motivate them.
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None of us know what he is actually like with the players. We see a media version of him where he has to choose his words and act in a very diplomatic way. Any showing of emotion and it could be used against him. Keegan.

Like I said I don’t see any good replacements out there that would be available. The only person I’d feel confident bringing in would be Ancelotti. Everyone else is a risk just like ETH was.
 
This would be a better thread, and one with an actual point, if it was confined to discussing why we shouldn't, or might not, sack Ten Hag. Instead it's the same arguments from all the same posters in the main thread who everybody already knows want him gone.
 
Atheist said:
Is it? It's not related to religion anyway and was hinting towards incredulity around the reasoning for supporting a manager who's not remotely humble or willing to learn from his mistakes.

Curious what level of bad is acceptable so that he can be sacked? Perhaps 8th place in the league with negative goal difference isn't too bad and maybe relegation to the championship is when the straw breaks the camel's back? None of this leeway was given to previous managers who got sacked and had better achievements (and rightly so).
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I think it’s a tremendously stupid opinion to hold. If you genuinely believe there are posters paid to post on Ten Hag’s behalf then I think you’re absolutely deluded.

Theres better ways to have an intelligent conversation around the reasons some people aren’t knives out just yet and your opener is the complete antithesis of trying to get that discourse.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
There are managers available, but would a top manager want to risk walking into this mess of a squad. There will be departures, but not as many as some think. The season after next might show a clearer picture of where we actually want to go and style of play. Otherwise it might just be going for a manager who ends up as yet another stopgap.
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Define a top manager though? Which names are we talking about?

What I'm talking about is if we're offering a prospective new coach the same £9m per year salary we pay Ten Hag making them the 4th-5th highest paid manager on the planet. Then we will have no problem hiring someone with at least a similar resume and experience as Ten Hag had in 2022. The idea that Manchester United can't attract a manager who the club thinks with reasonable certainty could improve upon this season is nonsense.

By the way there's nothing wrong with hiring a stopgap manager, hopefully the club will be moving away form the naive plan/hope we can find another Ferguson. The days of managers staying longer than 2-3 years are long gone for the most part.

Ineos really might just want to see how ETH performs with the structure above him in a better place and if they get rid of certain players the manager wants out for whatever reason.
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That's possible I suppose but in that case I doubt there being no managers available will influence that decision.
 
hobbers said:
Every potential replacement would do a better job than Ten Hag though, even Southgate (and I'd give it to McLaren for a season before him, he would also out-perform ETH). They dont need to be Ancelottis or Klopps.
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Why do you think this? You know this obviously isn’t factual.
 
hobbers said:
Because I've watched our football all season. I can see how bad his system is. I can see that he's bereft of nous and pragmatism. I can see he doesn't know how to positively affect the outcome of games from the sidelines. And I can see he has the charisma of a damp toilet brush.

Even the worst suggestions for replacements would have us defending with a proper structure, however boring it might be.
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Do you see how by not sacking him there could be some benefit?
 
BenitoSTARR said:
I think it’s a tremendously stupid opinion to hold. If you genuinely believe there are posters paid to post on Ten Hag’s behalf then I think you’re absolutely deluded.

Theres better ways to have an intelligent conversation around the reasons some people aren’t knives out just yet and your opener is the complete antithesis of trying to get that discourse.
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Interesting because I believe folks who think Ten Hag should be given another season are also similary deluded. No convincing reasons have been given at all in this thread - it's all excuses (injuries, the good old "structure" and "players need to be thrown out" as if he didn't sign many of them) and hypotheticals (we'll suddenly sell all of our squad in one transfer window without replacing them, Ten Hag will suddenly get this tactics right, and we won't have injury problems again) with little basis in fact. Might as well put it to belief and emotions. Is that intelligent discourse?
 
Rista said:
After finishing 3rd we added 200m worth of players without losing anybody we didn't want to lose. You cannot possibly convince me that "struggling for top 8" was a realistic expectation for this team. If it really is, then anybody who had slightest say in that transfer strategy should be sacked on the spot.
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What don’t you really understand? There is more at play in real life economics of a team than when people play a video game. Sometimes you have to lose people to get people in that maybe aren’t as good individually but will add to the whole once you bring more in.

I think you don’t see how bad this collection of players actually is and how many of them need replaced.

You say 200 mil worth of players but one is an untested striker who is really young and bought for the future and the back up is Martial. And umm that was replacing Ronaldo.

How anyone expected that combo to deliver the amount of goals needed is crazy. Add in the only creativity we had from wide positions was Sancho and we know how that went.

We didn’t get any new CB’s and were relying on an injury prone player who is getting on in years, Didn’t create the platform for someone like Onana to work by replacing that defence and midfield..

So really if anyone bothered to sit and think about it all the signs were there point towards a really poor season.
 
Atheist said:
Interesting because I believe folks who think Ten Hag should be given another season are also similary deluded. No convincing reasons have been given at all in this thread - it's all excuses (injuries, the good old "structure" and "players need to be thrown out" as if he didn't sign many of them) and hypotheticals (we'll suddenly sell all of our squad in one transfer window without replacing them, Ten Hag will suddenly get this tactics right, and we won't have injury problems again) with little basis in fact. Might as well put it to belief and emotions. I Is that intelligent discourse?
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I think there's a fair school of thought that hangs on the fact that hes broadly a very good coach despite the failures of this season. I don't see why people should be called deluded if their argument "he's been really shite this season by his own standards but was very successful last season. Let's see how he fares unless there's another coach who ticks all the boxes"
 
Atheist said:
Interesting because I believe folks who think Ten Hag should be given another season are also similary deluded. No convincing reasons have been given at all in this thread - it's all excuses (injuries, the good old "structure" and "players need to be thrown out" as if he didn't sign many of them) and hypotheticals (we'll suddenly sell all of our squad in one transfer window without replacing them, Ten Hag will suddenly get this tactics right, and we won't have injury problems again) with little basis in fact. Might as well put it to belief and emotions. Is that intelligent discourse?
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Well when you believe they are being paid for their opinion I’d argue you’re not going to take any facts they then present on board.

You consider them excuses when they could well be considered explanations or context behind underperformance.

For example do you accept that the injuries we’ve had would impact the performance of the squad this season?

I ask this because I’m willing to discuss further based on your response.
 
hobbers said:
Because I've watched our football all season. I can see how bad his system is. I can see that he's bereft of nous and pragmatism. I can see he doesn't know how to positively affect the outcome of games from the sidelines. And I can see he has the charisma of a damp toilet brush. I also strongly suspect his methods are the biggest single contributor to all the training injuries but I'll have to wait to see if I'm proven right there.

Even the worst suggestions for replacements would have us defending with a proper structure, however boring it might be.
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I mean, its quite clear that he is not bereft of nous and pragmatism as his first season was pretty much nous and pragmatism. He was getting praise for his substitutions vs pool and arsenal, and praise for his pragmatism for change tactics and achieving what he achieved. I get not believing that the tactics he is trying to implement this season will not be able to be effectively implemented in this league with this team. However, the guy has shown he is capable of being pragmatic and effecting games with United in the premier league last season. Its more a case of him doubling down with this season's tactics with the squad we have and the injuries, and whether you believe that even with new signings etc that he can be successful.
 
hobbers said:
Every potential replacement would do a better job than Ten Hag though, even Southgate (and I'd give it to McLaren for a season before him, he would also out-perform ETH). They dont need to be Ancelottis or Klopps.
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Sorry but that’s utter nonsense. You’re trying to state facts when there is no basis for it, The fact you’ve even mentioned Southgate is ridiculous.

Anyway I think what many seem to forget or not realise is we want to play a certain manner of football. We want to impose our play upon others like a Man City or Pool do. We could bring in a pragmatic manager like Jose that would just try and win at all costs but that only works for so long.

We want that imposing style where we play people off the park and we are in the process of building towards that. Will ETH be able to get it over the line with another window. I’m not sure. I think it’s at least another 2 possibly 3 summer windows away.

But next season I think he needs to show better performances, especially if we can bring in 3-4 players over this upcoming window.
 
hobbers said:
Where did this myth about him wanting players out even come from?

Ineos want players out. Ten Hag wasnt even aware of that brief, poo-pooed it and just wants Rashford to stay, hit form and entirely bail him out again.
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He can't say he wants players out when he still needs them to play for him due to injuries. If he doesn't then goodness knows which style he was thinking of playing. He apparently wanted rid of AWB and Maguire and has had to utilise them, Maguire has done reasonably well if still a lumbering, slow player, AWB has gone more and more downhill and the season has gone on.
 
Andersons Dietician said:
What don’t you really understand? There is more at play in real life economics of a team than when people play a video game. Sometimes you have to lose people to get people in that maybe aren’t as good individually but will add to the whole once you bring more in.

I think you don’t see how bad this collection of players actually is and how many of them need replaced.

You say 200 mil worth of players but one is an untested striker who is really young and bought for the future and the back up is Martial. And umm that was replacing Ronaldo.

How anyone expected that combo to deliver the amount of goals needed is crazy. Add in the only creativity we had from wide positions was Sancho and we know how that went.

We didn’t get any new CB’s and were relying on an injury prone player who is getting on in years, Didn’t create the platform for someone like Onana to work by replacing that defence and midfield..

So really if anyone bothered to sit and think about it all the signs were there point towards a really poor season.
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Literally none of that explains why we have regressed so much. Nobody would have predicted us to "struggle for top 8" before this season simply because the team is clearly better than that. As if other sides except for City and Arsenal don't have issues with not all players being the right fit. Since when is "top 8" a thing anyway.
 
Andersons Dietician said:
What don’t you really understand? There is more at play in real life economics of a team than when people play a video game. Sometimes you have to lose people to get people in that maybe aren’t as good individually but will add to the whole once you bring more in.

I think you don’t see how bad this collection of players actually is and how many of them need replaced.

You say 200 mil worth of players but one is an untested striker who is really young and bought for the future and the back up is Martial. And umm that was replacing Ronaldo.

How anyone expected that combo to deliver the amount of goals needed is crazy. Add in the only creativity we had from wide positions was Sancho and we know how that went.

We didn’t get any new CB’s and were relying on an injury prone player who is getting on in years, Didn’t create the platform for someone like Onana to work by replacing that defence and midfield..

So really if anyone bothered to sit and think about it all the signs were there point towards a really poor season.
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Out of interest did you predict any or all of this before the season started?

Predicted on here in posts I mean, because it's ok to say these things in hindsight.
 
It feels like some see the squad as a unit, all are one and the same. ”Players are lazy primadonnas” You are thinking of Rashford here? And only him?
Bruno cares and runs his socks off most games.
Dalot cares as well.

Mctominay is United through and through and is as loyal as anyone.
Garnacho, never stops trying.
Antony has been a flop no doubt, but you can’t fault his effort.
Maguire has also been a flop but is as proud as anyone wearing our shirt.
Mainoo has just started his senior career and is still somehow a shining light this season, you can not fault his character and desire.
Höjlund has just arrived, had a tough first season but seems like a very determined and hungry young player.

Martinez is a crazy argentinian who has as much fight in him as any other player in the sport.
Amad lost his marbles scoring a winner against Pool and got sent off. I think he is a proud United player and dying to become a regular.

Mount is an odd signing, especially considering his injury issues but he doesn’t seem like a lazy primadonna at all.

We have a few players leaving this summer for different reasons, regardless of manager.
We need to improve our decision making regarding new players in, something i think the new ceo and sporting director will help with. No more quickly declining star signings for one.
It is hard for me to see any clear advantage too keep EtH. We are miles away from clicking as a team and good things will happen with the organisation and squad either way.
 
BenitoSTARR said:
Well when you believe they are being paid for their opinion I’d argue you’re not going to take any facts they then present on board.

You consider them excuses when they could well be considered explanations or context behind underperformance.

For example do you accept that the injuries we’ve had would impact the performance of the squad this season?

I ask this because I’m willing to discuss further based on your response.
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To a degree where some results could be excused, yes but not the unraveling of the whole season and us finishing 8th and going out of the champions league at group stage. And I don't even think it could be considered an excuse especially if it's related to any of the coaching/training methods - we don't have the knowledge but there's no reason it couldn't happen again. What's galling is despite all of this, the manager has continued to persist with suicidal tactics that have only meant our defence is constantly stretched and at risk for more injuries through last ditch challenges/interventions. Most of our injuries have also been at the back so that still doesn't explain how poor we've been going forward have scored among the lowest number of goals, likely even lower than van Gaal's attritional season. I might even be willing to be sympathetic to Ten Hag if he admitted the number of shots on goal we were conceding was a problem or his tactics weren't working - but nope, it's all referees/VAR, injuries and players not following his instructions.
 
hobbers said:
It was top 2 under Jose. Top 4 under Ole and ETH has now successfully tricked the club and a large portion of naïve fans into thinking 8 teams are now all equally competing for the title. - literally his words.
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You do wonder if SAF has ever had regrets saying about supporting the manager. That one phrase has been a bit of a millstone around our necks. Not that we have not sacked managers, but people, especially ex players are treated it as some sort of sacrilege.
 
Rista said:
Literally none of that explains why we have regressed so much. Nobody would have predicted us to "struggle for top 8" before this season simply because the team is clearly better than that. As if other sides except for City and Arsenal don't have issues with not all players being the right fit. Since when is "top 8" a thing anyway.
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I think it’s just more you don’t want to see it honestly because it quite clearly explains why we regressed so much. if anything we actually exceeded expectation last season because Rashford had a purple patch but he was never going to keep that going.

Is English not your first language? Because Top 8 is only reference to the top 8 positions. Nothing more. I just thought it would be a struggle for us to finish within the top 8 positions.
 
hobbers said:
It didn't help but I think all the same things would have been said. Neville and co are staggeringly ignorant in all matters United and how the club should be run. He'd still have been parroting dumb lines whenever asked like 'Manchester United are not a sacking club, it just isn't the way we do things'.
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If sacking somebody is the right decision you do it. They seem for have forgotten we dismissed five managers from Sir Matt Busby until we got SAF in.
 
hobbers said:
Would be nice if someone could give an answer as to what value ETH would add next season to the Ineos project, over any other manager.

Won't accept anything to do with the selling of players as an answer because that's already been debunked.


Bearing in mind we paid him £9m for the privilege of his coaching this season. At least £6.25m is committed for next season and then another £6-9m will have to be committed to him sometime early next season if he's allowed to stay. He's paid elite manager money, only Pep gets more.
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Suppose 2 things would be

1) that he’ll get to continue the development of Mainoo, Garnacho and Hojlund

2) if he stays the players might think they can’t keep getting managers sacked at will

Not that I think either is a solid enough reason to keep him
 
Wait, are we now being told that it was expected at the start of the season for Spurs (after losing Kane) and Villa to finish comfortably above us and finishing in the top 8 was realistic? That’s just rewriting expectations and history.

Forget competing or winning the title, the minimum expectations were finishing in the top 4 and we’re miles off it.
 
Atheist said:
To a degree where some results could be excused, yes but not the unraveling of the whole season and us finishing 8th and going out of the champions league at group stage. And I don't even think it could be considered an excuse especially if it's related to any of the coaching/training methods - we don't have the knowledge but there's no reason it couldn't happen again. What's galling is despite all of this, the manager has continued to persist with suicidal tactics that have only meant our defence is constantly stretched and at risk for more injuries through last ditch challenges/interventions. Most of our injuries have also been at the back so that still doesn't explain how poor we've been going forward have scored among the lowest number of goals, likely even lower than van Gaal's attritional season. I might even be willing to be sympathetic to Ten Hag if he admitted the number of shots on goal we were conceding was a problem or his tactics weren't working - but nope, it's all referees/VAR, injuries and players not following his instructions.
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Ok so we can agree there has been an impact and it’s fair to say then we just disagree over the severity of that impact?

I would argue that the drop down from having Shaw or Malacia to any of Lindelof, AWB, Dalot or Amrabat playing there is monumental and causes significant structural and tactical problems at LB. It decreases the defensive stability, the ability to progress out from the back. This also hampers our ability to attack down the left hand side as it limits our overlapping play and also impacts our midfield as we have no one happy to tuck inside to form a LCB or LDM role.

As for the persistence the only solution I could see is to drop deeper, close the gap and play counter attacking football that we are trying to get away from. Do you have an alternative solution?

Do you agree with the above at all?
 
hobbers said:
But only Rashford, Shaw and Dalot have survived multiple sackings (Martial and Lindelof leaving regardless).

Genuinely think people need to be more worried about what Mainoo Garnacho and Hojlund could end up like if they're exposed to more ETH next season. More of the same intensity levels in matches and training, while also being so heavily relied on they start every game. Repeat muscle injuries have happened to Shaw, Casemiro and Mount this season, who knows who could be next.
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Well yeah but it’s the culture of the club and most of football now. If players turn on a manager he’s generally done. I think backing a manager through it forces players to either like it or lump it

I don’t know if ETH is the best manager for them either, but he’s the manager who’ll likely know them best atm
 
In my opinion the biggest issue to fix is the sporting structure and recruitment (and really reduce manager's control). If we do that and make good signings and have a fit squad and ETH is still stinking out the joint then get rid of him middle of next season. I am willing to give ETH the benefit of the doubt that he hasn't become a bad manager overnight. And we also need to send a message to the likes of Sancho that you can't just down tools and think you'll outlast the manager.
 
hobbers said:
But only Rashford, Shaw and Dalot have survived multiple sackings (Martial and Lindelof leaving regardless).

Genuinely think people need to be more worried about what Mainoo Garnacho and Hojlund could end up like if they're exposed to more ETH next season. More of the same intensity levels in matches and training, while also being so heavily relied on they start every game. Repeat muscle injuries have happened to Shaw, Casemiro and Mount this season, who knows who could be next.
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So you can just make up hypotheticals to try prove your point? They've been heavily relied upon and played a high intensity and not had repeat muscle injuries. Ten Hag has regularly protected both Mainoo and Hojlund by subbing them and Garnacho doesn't seem like he ever wants to be subbed. Unless you think we'll sign no one in midfield or a back up striker, because we'll likely be playing far less games, I don't see how your point has any basis.
 
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