Almost make too much sense!!
Unpopular Opinion | Not sacking Ten Hag
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Almost make too much sense!!
Well that's a stretch lets be fair here, he made two 5 minue sub appearances while continuing to play for the youth team.
Which ones?
I kinda agree on the OP-s statement. Analayzing ETH-s performance last 2 years objectively you should end up deciding to give him a year more.
Lets lay down the facts without getting subjective. Note that my objectives might be subjective but those are estabilished ones based on the typical club demands.
1. 2023/24 Season objectives :
-Champions league last 16 - failed
-Champions league qualification - failed
-Cup win- still on
2022/23 Season objectives
Europa League deep run- Partially competed
Champions League qualification- Complete
Cup win- Exceeded
2. Estabilishing a distinct playing style with emphasis on attacking play
- 2022/23 Season - Partial success
-2023/24 Season - Failed
3. Taking a leadership role and maintaining a demanding and meritocratic club culture
-2022/23 - Success
-2023/24 - Partial success
4. Maintaining club tradition on youth development and giving first team football to the the youth members
-2022/23 - Success
-2023/24 - Success
The importance of these objectives is on the descending order. So 1 is the most important (10x multiplier) and 4 is least important ( 6x multiplier)
1. 3/6 met : Total Score 5 (max score 10)
2. 0.5/2 met : Total score 2.25 ( max score 9)
3. 1.75/2 met: Total score 7 ( max score 8)
4. 2/2 met : Total score 6 ( max score 6)
20.25 out of max 40 ( 50.5%) - Verdict
assing score
p.s. I dont consider transfer business as part of ETH-s job description and he absolutely should not be blamed for the signings. The signing have no part on any logical score I can give to him as a Man Utd manager
Lets lay down the facts without getting subjective. Note that my objectives might be subjective but those are estabilished ones based on the typical club demands.
1. 2023/24 Season objectives :
-Champions league last 16 - failed
-Champions league qualification - failed
-Cup win- still on
2022/23 Season objectives
Europa League deep run- Partially competed
Champions League qualification- Complete
Cup win- Exceeded
2. Estabilishing a distinct playing style with emphasis on attacking play
- 2022/23 Season - Partial success
-2023/24 Season - Failed
3. Taking a leadership role and maintaining a demanding and meritocratic club culture
-2022/23 - Success
-2023/24 - Partial success
4. Maintaining club tradition on youth development and giving first team football to the the youth members
-2022/23 - Success
-2023/24 - Success
The importance of these objectives is on the descending order. So 1 is the most important (10x multiplier) and 4 is least important ( 6x multiplier)
1. 3/6 met : Total Score 5 (max score 10)
2. 0.5/2 met : Total score 2.25 ( max score 9)
3. 1.75/2 met: Total score 7 ( max score 8)
4. 2/2 met : Total score 6 ( max score 6)
20.25 out of max 40 ( 50.5%) - Verdict
assing score p.s. I dont consider transfer business as part of ETH-s job description and he absolutely should not be blamed for the signings. The signing have no part on any logical score I can give to him as a Man Utd manager
I honestly wonder what the breaking point for some of these posters is?
Game after game of opponents running through our midfield and taking countless shots on goal isn’t enough. Being 8th with a negative goal difference with three games left hasn’t done it either
It’s almost as if he’s been given a pass to be as bad as possible this season.
The craziest thing are those saying they don’t feel like the options out there are better than EtH so why not keep him. Imagine thinking there are only a handful of options better than Ten Hag after seeing what he’s done this season.
This team is on a journey. Unless we get a Pep type manager, the path back to the top will probably involve up to three managers. We don’t need a saviour but it’s hard for United fans to understand this. Every coach has to be the new Fergie and every young player the new Rooney or Ronaldo.
I would argue this has precisely been the mindset of our owners and executives since 2013. It is why I didn't want Ten Hag sacked prior to INEOS's formal involvement.
Now we have the semblance of a modern football structure, we can finally move away from it.
Let the new recruitment staff bring in 3 new players over the summer, then another 3 next summer with a new manager next summer. Then I think you're giving the new guy a real chance to succeed.
You're going to ruin another young managers promising career with the current composition of the squad. I think it also sends a good message that United will honor the full length of the contract and let the manager see out his project.
You're going to ruin another young managers promising career with the current composition of the squad. I think it also sends a good message that United will honor the full length of the contract and let the manager see out his project.
A 50.5 / 100 is an F.
Ban worthy thread of ever there was one.
This club deserve to be where we are based on this thread. It's crazy that someone would give ETH another season. Everywhere in real world, you need to meet your KPIs, no ifs and buts.
You can't blame everything to football structure when you were given full backing. You can't blame football structure when your tactics are shit. You can't blame everything to injuries because there are many teams in PL still perform well even with injuries.
The problem with ETH is not the football structure and need be given a chance with the new structure. The problem with ETH is he failed all the basic. End to end football facing 1000 shots a game. Playing with 2 number 10s in PL. Can't set up defence, midfield and attack. Negative GD. Seems the worst coached team in PL. Players can't pass and looks like strangers. Opposition score tonnes of cutback goals and set pieces, nothing being addressed. The list goes on and on.
We have better chance next season with a reset of manager. He is not up to the standard of PL and it's ok because there were many Dutch manager failed in PL and still do decently back to Eredivisie
You can't blame everything to football structure when you were given full backing. You can't blame football structure when your tactics are shit. You can't blame everything to injuries because there are many teams in PL still perform well even with injuries.
The problem with ETH is not the football structure and need be given a chance with the new structure. The problem with ETH is he failed all the basic. End to end football facing 1000 shots a game. Playing with 2 number 10s in PL. Can't set up defence, midfield and attack. Negative GD. Seems the worst coached team in PL. Players can't pass and looks like strangers. Opposition score tonnes of cutback goals and set pieces, nothing being addressed. The list goes on and on.
We have better chance next season with a reset of manager. He is not up to the standard of PL and it's ok because there were many Dutch manager failed in PL and still do decently back to Eredivisie
Un
Actually is an E, so its passing. It can be a D- if we somehow end up winning FA cup.
18 years of school & 12 years of teaching and this is the first I’m ever hearing of an E. You make a 50.5 in my class, that’s an F and a D- starts at 60.
And I don’t really think that making a point that an E or D- is a standard that should retain your job at Manchester United is a good look to begin with.
How is that different? We've gone through bucketloads of players.
Sacking ten Hag now or end of the season will only repeat the cycle that we did in the past. I believe giving ten Hag 1 more season is an ideal move for these five reasons:
- Financial reason - He only has 1 year left in his contract.
- Why throwing the money to sack him now if he can leave without costing us a penny by waiting until summer 2025? You might think if we keep him, we might be suffered next season for not getting top 4, which will affect us financially. But what if the other way around that he could make us top 4 next season because he has proven himself he could lead us to top 4 last season? It’s not like the new candidate manager can guarantee us top 4 either. Hence, the ideal move will be at least keeping ten hag until his contract expired.
- The new structure might be similar to the Ajax structure in term of the manager’s role and the recruitment.
- INEOS wants to deploy structure where the manager acts like a head coach focusing more on coaching and developing players. INEOS wants to have more control in recruitment. At Ajax, ten Hag wasn’t the main guy who decided the recruitment. He was more the head coach and focusing more on coaching and developing players, which something ten Hag was highly rated at Ajax. They had Marc Overmars to overlook the recruitment, planning, contract, and etc, which reducing the work load and the responsibility of the manager. This new structure could benefit ten Hag, hence why I would like to see what ten hag can do under INEOS’s new structure.
- ten Hag is still a high talented coach.
- Last season: He finished 3rd, reached FA & EFL Cup final, won EFL Cup, and only lost once at home last season (vs Brighton) in PL. I dare to say, it might be our best season post SAF based on combined league and all competition. Mourinho won two trophies in his first season but he faced nobody in Europa league and finished outside the top 4 which a reflection of how poor we were in the league. While We beat Barcelona the La Liga winner in Europa league last season.
- At Ajax 22/23, ten Hag made Ajax became one of the most productive team in UCL by scoring lot of goals and playing good football. He beats sporting 4-2 and 5-1 against Ruben Amorim, the same manager who won Portuguese league twice and wanted by Liverpool to replace Klopp. He beats Dortmund 3-1 and 4-0
- At Ajax 18/19, ten hag reached semi final UCL beating the likes of Bayern, juventus, and Real Madrid playing great football. Only to lose in semi final despite of having 2-0 lead in first half of the second leg and the only reason his team was knocked out because of the away goal.
- Ajax won every eredivise under ten hag, even when they sold their main players in 2019, ten hag still won trophy with a new rebuild team. The moment ten hag left, Ajax couldn’t win a single trophy and couldn’t even qualify in UCL spot.
- Don’t let the players power overcome the manager or coach once again.
- Is the manager really the problem when we still have the same players majority who let the previous manager and coaches? The players convinced some Or many fans that Kieran McKenna was a poor coach. Look at him now promoted Ipswich Town back to back from league one to championship to PL and playing good football. Rangnick - he’s done well with Austria now with more than 60% winning percentage. People thought he was poor manager but yet Bayern wanted him.
- May be we shouldn’t be rushing sacking the manager or coach but giving ten hag another season to show what he can do if he has stability in his back four plus DM and under new structure where hopefully we will see improvement in recruitment.
- Unlucky with the massive amount of Injuries
- Any managers will suffer with more than 30 different combination back four in a season. There is no stability and not enough time to play/train together to develop as a team. We might see massive improvement if we can sign less injury prone back four and DM who has the leg.
- There was also lot of question marks about our fitness coaches and medical department. There was even a report that Casemiro had to go to Spain because our medical department couldn’t identify Casemiro’s injury. Ten hag also had a dig to our medical department who told him that Malacia and Shaw will be back so he didn’t need to extend Reguilon’s loan deal or could let Fernandez going on loan to benfica. The fitness coaches and medical department require overhauled before the manager.
It's not that surprising. For a lot of United fans, managers are always the least of our problems. The fact that he's an horrendous tactician is the Glazers fault.
A lot of people can talk the good talk. Heck, you can find posters on Redcafe who can write some detailed and lengthy essays displaying their vast knowledge obtained from reading 442 type tactical websites. That doesn't mean that they can go and become successful managers.
He played a pretty compact system and could have reverted back to it if he understood the gravity of the situation. But instead he has continued and failed with it through out the season. I don't even know which missing players will come back and allow him to play this stupid system completely unsuited to this league. We had Martinez, Mount and Shaw all available at the beginning of the season and faced similar problems as we did without them. The midfield and the attack has been available almost throughout, but has that changed our pressing, passing, control of the midfield or chance creation? I think the answer to all of those is a no.
He performed infinitely better in a league where Ajax is a dominant team and had a golden generation of players coming through. His record in the Champions league and Europa was mediocre at the best. Yeah, that unprecedented and historic semi-final run aside, it was nothing to write home about.
Again, my question: Do we see himself as a manager who can get us back to challenging again? The answer is staring at our face.
Just wanted to highlight this as an example of why this forum can be such an absolute shitshow at times.
"Your opinion is different to mine, therefore you should be banned."
What a lovely way to act. Christ.
Which is the most unserious reason any club could possibly have to not sack a manager. Are they also not "bored" of constantly changing players? It's the same embarrassing "we're not a sacking club" stuff that keeps living on from Moyes era to this day. Same unhealthy attachment to one guy in the whole organization that we apparently can't get rid of.
Meanwhile, in real life, in many big organisations, if the organisation were not performing well the leadership team/managers need to go. It just doesn't make sense to change the entire workforce instead. It's just impossible unless you want to bankrupt the organisation. It's easy for us fans to just say change the players and keep the manager to make a statement.
But if it's your company or you're running a business, things will be very different. No other club in history stick to the failed manager and changed most of the player for the manager. It's a recipe to disaster and put us into bankruptcy or at the very least even more trouble with FFP
But if it's your company or you're running a business, things will be very different. No other club in history stick to the failed manager and changed most of the player for the manager. It's a recipe to disaster and put us into bankruptcy or at the very least even more trouble with FFP
I’d accept one more season only if rashford is sold against his wishes.
Well yeah, but he obviously is a bit more than that.
I always point to the Arsenal game, although we lost, I thought that was the style of played we'd go for this season but it's not materlised. I don't think I've seen those passing patterns since and if we can get back to that with some better additions, I'll be all for that next season.
He had two and both haven't lived up to being a golden generation. He also had players like Tadic, Blind, Haller, Ziyech and not to mention DVB who have all been deemed not good enough in our league, but worked pretty well in Europe. That is recruitment doing it's job properly and aligning to how a manager sets up, we should expect a better structure to do something closer to that.
As I said, probably not, but I'd prefer Tuchel. If the alternative is Potter or Southgate as linked, I think they'd be just as bad and would rather stick until a better option appears - iraola as an example.
This is why this "players getting clean slate under new manager" idea is ridiculous as well. Of course most players will stay. Most players from most clubs stay, it's unrealistic and unfeasible to change the squad. "Let's try backing the manager and getting rid of players" is not a serious solution.
I get all this and I'd normally be alright saying "go on, let's give it another try" due to the horrific injury list. However, his inability to adapt and change tactics when faced with an injury crisis is horrendous management and inexcusable, he's sleepwalked all the way through the season, just hoping the continuation of the same tactics will eventually "click".
So what happens if we have a good Summer, but then Martinez, a new centre back and a CM gets injured in November, because we clearly don't have a manager who can adapt, it's like we need to be the luckiest side in the league and have no issues, then we might be alright.
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Is a big part of the problem that we shouldn’t ever really be thinking about is it a manager X’s squad rather is this a Man United squad?
We go too quickly from different styles of play to leave us with Frankenstein’s monster squads. If Wilcox thinks Ten Hag is building the “United” style of play then we stick with him.
For context in a British schooling system depending on the subject a 50.5 could be worth a C.
We go too quickly from different styles of play to leave us with Frankenstein’s monster squads. If Wilcox thinks Ten Hag is building the “United” style of play then we stick with him.
E is the 5th letter in the alphabet. It comes between D and F.
For context in a British schooling system depending on the subject a 50.5 could be worth a C.
While that is likely to be the case, Arteta has been able to sign 24 players on permanent deals since starting at Arsenal. In fact, I think in the majority of cases, PL sides don't make the jump from top four hopefuls to title challengers without significant squad overhaul. That usually goes hand in hand with a managerial change too, by the way.
We've sold and bought plenty of players. You just don't sell half your squad at once which is what people seem to be expecting to happen. For some reason only under Ten Hag too.
Forgot he was still here, unbelievable how we have managed to get in this position squad wise.
Ah another cultist. How lovely.
Justvpoopedy head in here to see what people are saying.
Can't believe I'm seeing posts like "players this timr" or "players not the manager".
Forgive me if I am wrong but wasn't there a brief from all the tier 1/2s saying this summer we are having a proper clear out?
Have we all forgotten that it is planned for this summer?
There seems to be an either or attitude toward it , I think it's obvious to the powers that be that most of this playing squad need to go. It's been briefed and reported in the media.
I'm not sure why people are conveniently ignoring two facts.
- Most of the playing squad are up for sale already.
- Most of our starting 11 is comprised of useless ten hag signings.
Can't believe I'm seeing posts like "players this timr" or "players not the manager".
Forgive me if I am wrong but wasn't there a brief from all the tier 1/2s saying this summer we are having a proper clear out?
Have we all forgotten that it is planned for this summer?
There seems to be an either or attitude toward it , I think it's obvious to the powers that be that most of this playing squad need to go. It's been briefed and reported in the media.
I'm not sure why people are conveniently ignoring two facts.
- Most of the playing squad are up for sale already.
- Most of our starting 11 is comprised of useless ten hag signings.
Have we though, really? Under every manager it's 3, tops 4 permanent additions. Everyone always wants a whole new squad every year, so I don't know what you're on about with the "only under Ten Hag" thing, but he's on 9, so about the same rate.
As I said, teams who go from top 4 hopefuls to title challengers tend to overhaul their squads a lot more than we have done under any post-SAF manager. And that does usually come at the same time as a new manager, so you would hope that INEOS know that bringing in a new head coach may need to go hand in hand with a decent squad turnover if they want a big step forward. History tells us that.
I believe it is usually cults who want to ban out different opinions.... you know, like you suggested?
Fergie got 6 years to win the league so obviously our next messiah also needs 6 years.
When even the people wanting to give him another season are reduced to arguing that his overall time here should be considered as a grade of E and not an F you know there's not really much of a justification for keeping him.
Love this idea. Clear the squad from the dross and allow ETH to pick his own players. Only then we will know how good he can be. Give him another £500m to build his team and then give him 2-3 years to put it together, gel and only then judge him. We owe him that.
You couldn’t make this up, even with the caveat it’s hilarious!!
He has to go. Simple as. The lack of a footballing identity, his crazy signings and crazy/inconsistent decision making is alone enough to send him to the guillotine.
Conversely cults stick to endless bottom feeding for some individual who usually is a con artist. You know like this thread OP has suggested in his "yeah let's watch our club burn more cause I love Hag" thread.
If Ineos do decide to keep him on for one more season, it's likely it'll be on the proviso that he has zero say (or next to zero!) on any new signings or sales.
His recruitment (signing players he's coached before who he should know inside-out and back-to-front and who turn out to be shit) and inability to identify the areas of the team that need strengthening (signing players we don't need) has been disastrous and probably the biggest indictment of his tenure at the club.
His recruitment (signing players he's coached before who he should know inside-out and back-to-front and who turn out to be shit) and inability to identify the areas of the team that need strengthening (signing players we don't need) has been disastrous and probably the biggest indictment of his tenure at the club.