Unpopular Opinion | Not sacking Ten Hag

Stadjer said:
I believe it is usually cults who want to ban out different opinions.... you know, like you suggested?
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Also you seriously believe anyone sane should opine still that Hag deserves more time? I mean if you do, please do also reveal which club you support.
 
didz said:
Have we though, really? Under every manager it's 3, tops 4 permanent additions. Everyone always wants a whole new squad every year, so I don't know what you're on about with the "only under Ten Hag" thing, but he's on 9, so about the same rate.

As I said, teams who go from top 4 hopefuls to title challengers tend to overhaul their squads a lot more than we have done under any post-SAF manager. And that does usually come at the same time as a new manager, so you would hope that INEOS know that bringing in a new head coach may need to go hand in hand with a decent squad turnover if they want a big step forward. History tells us that.
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Well yes, that's mostly what I'm saying. Everyone wants a new squad but it's not realistic. We've bought and sold plenty under Ten Hag. The argument is that for some reason people believe Ten Hag staying means that then, and only then, we will overhaul the squad and kick out underperformers. When in reality we'll likely change the squad more if a new manager is hired as well.
 
Lash said:
Well yeah, but he obviously is a bit more than that.

I always point to the Arsenal game, although we lost, I thought that was the style of played we'd go for this season but it's not materlised. I don't think I've seen those passing patterns since and if we can get back to that with some better additions, I'll be all for that next season.

He had two and both haven't lived up to being a golden generation. He also had players like Tadic, Blind, Haller, Ziyech and not to mention DVB who have all been deemed not good enough in our league, but worked pretty well in Europe. That is recruitment doing it's job properly and aligning to how a manager sets up, we should expect a better structure to do something closer to that.

As I said, probably not, but I'd prefer Tuchel. If the alternative is Potter or Southgate as linked, I think they'd be just as bad and would rather stick until a better option appears - iraola as an example.
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I still sometimes think about those 30 minutes against Palace under Rangnick and wonder what it could have been. :drool: May be we can lure him back. The added advantage with him would be that he can also play DOF until Ashworth is appointed.

What players did his competition at Ajax have during those years?

Recruitment did the job of aligning with the manager's vision at Ajax, however, he couldn't select players himself to align with his vision? That's a bit strange, no? 9 of the players that started the last game were bought or brought up by ETH but still we lost 4-0 to Crystal Palace. We looked as disorganized as we have this entire season. And we can't even use the excuse that we used for a better part of last season of him not getting enough time on the training pitch because of games coming thick and fast. For more than half of this season we have played one game a week and still we don't even see glimpses of this great football philosophy. Or is that it is only dependent on Martinez being fit and Frenkie de Jong in the midfield? Because if that's the case then we are in deeper trouble than we though. Martinez may never fully recover from his injury and Fdj might reject us like he has 10 times already.

Between, you still didn't answer if you can see us challenging with ETH.
 
Nickelodeon said:
Let me start by saying that I wanted Jose and Ole out when we were in a similar or even a slightly better position. In my mind, not qualifying for the Champions League should've been an automatic sackable offense for any United manager. And I do acknowledge that Ten Hag is in a position where he probably deserves the sack from a performance, results, and signings perspective. Everyone analyzing Man United knows and accepts that a cultural overhaul is needed. But what defines a cultural overhaul? Is it going to be a change in manager or a change in players? Or both? We know changing the manager is the less complicated option. It also gives the players (another) clean slate to perform. But would it really change the culture? Let's look at plausible scenarios of what would/could happen if we change the manager. Many examples are based on recent history.
  • We play well next season but not well enough to challenge for the title. Most probably qualify for the Champions League.
  • A few players like Varane, Martial, Eriksen, etc., leave the club.
  • One of the new signings performs well, and we think that the culture is changing.
  • Rashford scores 20+ goals in the season.
  • Players suddenly describe the mood as more positive, and they have found 'smiles on their faces.'
  • The subsequent season, we are exactly in the same situation we are now, where the same players are either out of form, injured, or have just given up.
I fear that sacking Ten Hag and getting a new manager is going to land us in the exact same space we've been in for many years. And when the new manager comes in, there is an inevitable feeling, and also financial prudence, where we want to give the same players another opportunity. I would hate to see the likes of Rashford being given their nth chance. It is time for the players to shoulder the burden of our lack of performance and success.

However, if we don't sack Ten Hag, it could go one of two ways:
There is a massive change in the playing squad, and Ten Hag knows his neck is now on the line, and we find the rhythm we were expecting this season. Or he's a dead man walking who gets sacked around October-December. However, unlike previous seasons, we would have a proper team functioning who would ensure that there is no misalignment between the players we have and have signed in the summer, with the new manager who comes in.

Let me be clear. I'm not confident of success if Ten Hag stays. But I would hate for this squad to outlast another manager and then find that the same two-year cycle under a new manager with the same/similar players is happening again. Hence, because we have shown faith in Ten Hag as a high-quality coach, maybe it's time to back him when he would be in a similar structure to when he's thrived previously.
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I think this argument holds more weight under the previous regime. Getting the likes of Berrada, Wilcox, Ashworth etc should remove that whole "clean slate" argument.

Our problem has been that we're constantly trying to find the next SAF to build us into something. Hopefully with a proper footballing structure fit for the modern era we can move forward in such a way that recruiting a manager is just the final piece in building a winning team, because the vision, strategy and recruitment should be driven more by the hierarchy that see the long term picture, and not only be driven by the coach who's sole responsibility is delivering results in the coming weeks.

Now maybe EtH will have more sway over recruitment, or the next manager will have more power and control, I don't really know the ins and outs. But I'm assuming that people like Berrada, Wilcox and Ashworth are not coming here for show, they will have crucial roles as we step forward into the modern age as a club. Therefore, we should not see this whole "clean slate" or "reset button" style club management.

Like them or hate them, Chelsea did this well during the Abromavich era. They had so much success with numerous coaches and in periods of great managerial flux. Our failing has been that we've been too reliant on the manager to bring success.
 
The alternatives arent great and it means starting over again. We need another year to rebuild everything behind the scenes anyway so just give him his last year. Firing him isnt cheap either.
 
I also want to see a third season from him. I feel it will benefit us in the long run because I believe some manager out there will make the job theirs given that kind of time. I think EtH will ultimately be undone by his seemingly Dutch influenced inability to adapt.
 
I can give 2 reasons not to sack ETH - one is the injuries and the second is the development of young players. But when you come to the stage that you don't want to watch United-games - that's when a manager has to go.
 
hobbers said:
Another of these vacuous cliches. We're starting over again regardless. Ineos briefed the entire squad bar 3 players are up for sale for christ sake.

Keeping him would mean triggering his 1 year extension which means sacking him increases in cost by £9m. Genius.
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No, it doesn't. Stop making things up.

lysglimt said:
I can give 2 reasons not to sack ETH - one is the injuries and the second is the development of young players. But when you come to the stage that you don't want to watch United-games - that's when a manager has to go.
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This is entirely fair, and why on balance he probably does have to go. It was a similar situation with LVG.
 
Insanity said:
I still sometimes think about those 30 minutes against Palace under Rangnick and wonder what it could have been. :drool: May be we can lure him back. The added advantage with him would be that he can also play DOF until Ashworth is appointed.

What players did his competition at Ajax have during those years?

Recruitment did the job of aligning with the manager's vision at Ajax, however, he couldn't select players himself to align with his vision? That's a bit strange, no? 9 of the players that started the last game were bought or brought up by ETH but still we lost 4-0 to Crystal Palace. We looked as disorganized as we have this entire season. And we can't even use the excuse that we used for a better part of last season of him not getting enough time on the training pitch because of games coming thick and fast. For more than half of this season we have played one game a week and still we don't even see glimpses of this great football philosophy. Or is that it is only dependent on Martinez being fit and Frenkie de Jong in the midfield? Because if that's the case then we are in deeper trouble than we though. Martinez may never fully recover from his injury and Fdj might reject us like he has 10 times already.
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:lol: fair point, but I think it was the closest we've been to a recognisable style of play that we've seen here - so I'm holding on to it!

Well in the CL some pretty impressive ones beating Real and Juve. In the league PSV had players like Gakpo, Dumfries, Malen who are European level. Feyenoord had Senesi and Sinisterra who are doing well in the Prem. It's not as cut and dry as most people think, they didn't even qualify for the CL before he came in. I have no problem in saying how shite he's been here, but not sure why we're so dismissive of what he did previously all of a sudden.

No, it happens all the time. Klopp didn't want Salah, he wanted Brandt and the DOF stepped in and the rest is history. I think we could see improvement with a better reshaping of the squad, that doesn't mean I am not appalled at how we played against Palace and not concerned with his decision making and set up with what he has.

He is clearly stubborn, much like LVG, but LVG isn't a bad manager and with the players in his vision he has had success. Now much like LVG, is that vision how United want to play? I think Ten Hags is closer to a United style that LVGs ever was, but if Wilcox agrees with the principles Ten Hag espouses, then we have to believe he can purchase players to suit that. It does mean not letting him pursue De Jong again and probably investing in a CB good enough on the ball as Martinez, because we can't rely on him to be fit.

Again, I will repeat, this doesn't mean I want him to stay at all costs. I would prefer Tuchel and we buy players for Tuchel and the agreed vision. I do NOT want to sack him to bring in Potter or Southgate to do that.
 
hobbers said:
In the real world though, it does. Because otherwise he'd be so undermined at the first tiny wobble next season it'd be an even bigger shitshow than post-Coventry or post-Palace.

If they decide to keep him it's almost 100% they'd trigger his extension before the season starts. Even if they didn't, we would not get more than 2 months into the season without him either being sacked or that extension being triggered.
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Not only is that conjecture, it's nonsense. Managers go into seasons in the final year of their contract all the time, usually with the aim being to have them earn an extension. It's why the +1 is there in the first place. As for the whole tiny wobble argument, that would happen whether the manager (whoever that may be) has 12 months on their deal or 12 years. It's inconsequential.

You're inventing a bogeyman scenario from thin air.
 
RedBanker said:
Bottom feeders can find their own way. I don't interact with such scum of the earth anyway. Adios.
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The irony of you submitting posts that are literally ban-worthy in accordance with forum guidelines is quite delicious if I do say so myself.
 
The Urban Goose said:
I agree.

As an aside,
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Good video. Thanks for sharing.

The bit that stood out for me is where it said INEOS will recruit players that suit their style of play, not the managers.

As it stands, we don't really know what type of players INEOS want. More importantly, we don't know whether it'll coincide with what ten Hag wants, as he wasn't an INEOS appointment.

It could be that INEOS want to play a complete different style to ten Hag. As a result, that could lead to the dismissal of ten Hag. Although, if that was the case, like Bayern and Barcelona, you'd imagine we'd have announced it already.

In my opinion, I think ten Hag is someone who INEOS want. I think, he's very much up to date with modern football, i.e. playing from the back, high press, etc. However, I just think it needs to be refined. As the video said, we need an overhaul and the players we bring in need to suit our long term style of play.
 
The fundamental question is this:

Is it incredibly difficult to transition to success from a frankenstein squad in a broken footballing operation and a club that's been pillaged by the Glazers for almost two decades?

Or

Is ETH just really shit at doing the above.

I think the answer is a bit of both. I would put it around 75/25. But a coach who is good at this kind of transition is a very specialised role. He might be the best we will get.
 
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didz said:
Have we though, really? Under every manager it's 3, tops 4 permanent additions. Everyone always wants a whole new squad every year, so I don't know what you're on about with the "only under Ten Hag" thing, but he's on 9, so about the same rate.

As I said, teams who go from top 4 hopefuls to title challengers tend to overhaul their squads a lot more than we have done under any post-SAF manager. And that does usually come at the same time as a new manager, so you would hope that INEOS know that bringing in a new head coach may need to go hand in hand with a decent squad turnover if they want a big step forward. History tells us that.
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We've just changed abround 60% of this squad under Ten Hag, there's only 10 or so players left form 2022. And half of those are likely to go this summer as well. After we bring in 4-5 players this summer the squad will be sitting at 75-80% new players as compared to Solskjaers last squad that finished 2nd.

I don't see us challenging for the title next year, so do we just ditch Ten Hags squad and start again?
 
Noting the injuries, and the poor structure of the footballing side behind him and giving him some leeway for that, what is he doing that indicates he is ever going to be good enough to manage Manchester United?
 
RedBanker said:
Also you seriously believe anyone sane should opine still that Hag deserves more time? I mean if you do, please do also reveal which club you support.
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Why are you being so passive agressive about this? This is an online forum where people can discus topics but it seems like you just want an echo chamber of your own opinion?

So far you want someone banned because of this topic/opinion, called that person a bottom feeder, call people who dont share you opinion insane and say those people cant be Manchester United fans. Ofcourse cultist had to be mentioned too because when you arent making vitriolic ETH out posts then you are a ETH cultist.

I believe that you are supposed to back your opinion up with (football) arguments and not by getting personal with other posters or attacking those other posters.
 
RedRover said:
Noting the injuries, and the poor structure of the footballing side behind him and giving him some leeway for that, what is he doing that indicates he is ever going to be good enough to manage Manchester United?
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Perhaps Manchester United is unmanageable? It sounds like a rich cancer patient switching doctors. "But the guy in the next room down got better. I want his doctor instead."
 
Loitering in 8th in the league.
Conceding 20-30 shots to even the crappest teams every week.
Not one signing that can be considered a success, weighing up the overall picture of output/price/injury/availability.
Falling out with players.
Not one player looking better this season than last.

If all of the above isn't enough for it being to change the manager, what on earth would be?
 
Nickelodeon said:
Let me start by saying that I wanted Jose and Ole out when we were in a similar or even a slightly better position. In my mind, not qualifying for the Champions League should've been an automatic sackable offense for any United manager. And I do acknowledge that Ten Hag is in a position where he probably deserves the sack from a performance, results, and signings perspective. Everyone analyzing Man United knows and accepts that a cultural overhaul is needed. But what defines a cultural overhaul? Is it going to be a change in manager or a change in players? Or both? We know changing the manager is the less complicated option. It also gives the players (another) clean slate to perform. But would it really change the culture? Let's look at plausible scenarios of what would/could happen if we change the manager. Many examples are based on recent history.
  • We play well next season but not well enough to challenge for the title. Most probably qualify for the Champions League.
  • A few players like Varane, Martial, Eriksen, etc., leave the club.
  • One of the new signings performs well, and we think that the culture is changing.
  • Rashford scores 20+ goals in the season.
  • Players suddenly describe the mood as more positive, and they have found 'smiles on their faces.'
  • The subsequent season, we are exactly in the same situation we are now, where the same players are either out of form, injured, or have just given up.
I fear that sacking Ten Hag and getting a new manager is going to land us in the exact same space we've been in for many years. And when the new manager comes in, there is an inevitable feeling, and also financial prudence, where we want to give the same players another opportunity. I would hate to see the likes of Rashford being given their nth chance. It is time for the players to shoulder the burden of our lack of performance and success.

However, if we don't sack Ten Hag, it could go one of two ways:
There is a massive change in the playing squad, and Ten Hag knows his neck is now on the line, and we find the rhythm we were expecting this season. Or he's a dead man walking who gets sacked around October-December. However, unlike previous seasons, we would have a proper team functioning who would ensure that there is no misalignment between the players we have and have signed in the summer, with the new manager who comes in.

Let me be clear. I'm not confident of success if Ten Hag stays. But I would hate for this squad to outlast another manager and then find that the same two-year cycle under a new manager with the same/similar players is happening again. Hence, because we have shown faith in Ten Hag as a high-quality coach, maybe it's time to back him when he would be in a similar structure to when he's thrived previously.
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A lot said there, however, here is one point I will make, the team mirrors the manager. It's that simple. So if you have a soft Susan manager, that will be reflected in the team, likewise if you have a Roy Keane type, that will be reflected in the team. Second, I don't see progress with this team. Why are they stagnant, why is the on field setup and game plan so flawed? It has been mentioned that McClaren has absolutely no input on training and Ten Hag is controlling it all. That in itself gives to culpability and if true should be all that is required to dictate an exit.
Where things go awry with continual manager changes, each manager brings in a player that suits what he is setting up on the field. Each change over means you go back to square 1 and creates a new need for transfers. There needs to be a due diligence approach to choosing ETH's replacement with a long term plan.
 
"Bascially I dont have a clue and this is my best guess at this moment" -jamie jackson
 
hobbers said:
And in 100 out of 100 of the scenarios where a manager has a 3+1 contract that +1 is activated at the start of year 3 at the very latest. Almost always earlier. The only managers who go through with jobs on the last year of contracts are ones who are safe as houses and thinking of retirement.

The notion that you can give ETH next season leaving his contract to whittle down to zero is another redcafe myth that doesn’t stand up to any scrutiny, same as the notion that keeping ETH will somehow cull the squad faster when the reverse is actually true.

The whole discussion is pointless to begin with, common sense should tell you that the players have all given up on him because they already think he’s cooked. The board clearly don’t want to give him any extensions, and commit another £9m to someone who has failed in their remit so spectacularly. So keeping him next season is obviously doomed to fail when the owners don’t rate him enough to at least commit to him.
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Ok. I can't argue with you so we'll leave it at that.
 
Moriarty said:
Jamie Jackson reckons INEOS will hang on to Ten Hag because there is no suitable replacement available.
https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...d-lead-erik-ten-hag-staying-manchester-united
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There is a strong logic to this argument and I wouldn't be at all unhappy if that was the outcome.

But I don't believe it will happen in a million years. ETH is toast after the cup final as any fool can see. Because...

hobbers said:
common sense should tell you that the players have all given up on him because they already think he’s cooked.
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My main issue is that he never admits any mistakes on his front on anything. All problems are down to the referees, injuries or the players not following his instructions. It’s hard to support a manager who’s not remotely humble and then actually is dreadful at getting teams to play semi-decent football or results.

He called us the team that played the most dynamic and entertaining football in the league. Imagine how deluded one has to be say that and how disastrous it would be to give him more time, essentially rewarding failures.

Further, injuries are always excused as bad luck. There needs to be an investigation into his training methods as it can’t be all bad luck. What if we have another season of injuries like that? I don’t think it’s that unrealistic for it to happen. We could be in relegation spots if he can’t deal with injuries and adapt his tactics.

The other concern is he still wants vetoes on transfers and no doubt he’ll be looking to sign mediocrity (like Amrabat, Antony) from the clubs he’s managed before while continuing to reward Rashford. How’s this all a recipe for success?
 
hobbers said:
There's the mad use of that word again. And we can all see where it's going. Nowhere.

But nah you're absolutely right he deserves another season dragging us down because we only pay him £9m a year, and he doesnt have a warm blankety Structure to protect him from his own incompetence, and that's very unfair.
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1 cup, 2 x Fa cup finals, last season best defensive record in the league. Then there are all the outside issues he has dealt with. This word incompetence again I’ll repeat how can anyone get much more out of this collection of players even without the injuries?


Rista said:
So you rate his transfer dealings so low that you thought our fully fit first 11 was going to struggle for top 8 but you think he "deserves" another season? I'm honestly convinced no other fanbase is like this.
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If you were asked to build a 2nd hand Lego set, but it wasn’t complete and you don’t have the money to buy all the parts you need in one go.
Then you’re told you can’t get the correct parts but you are given the option of these others parts that are cheap and can do a job but there not from the same Lego set what are you going to do? You can build the set as is but some parts don’t fit together and it just looks terrible till you get the other parts.

As for why I figured we’d struggle I just looked at the collection of players and realised that many of them are not fit for purpose and needed moving on and we needed other things.

We would never get the best out of Onana without a total rebuild of defence and midfield. He is encountering the same issues DeGea had with the playing out from the back and that is that defenders and midfield are lazy and don’t give options.

Mount has been injured and so has Malacia. Martinez looks like a good signing. Rasmus has been bought for the future. The only one that really we would be expecting more from is Antony and he has been utter crap and I just can’t see any way of building anything with him in. He has been a major flop but other than that the rest have been opportunistic signings or just people we need to have bodies in positions.

But I’ll repeat we need way more pieces of the puzzle as this is a proper rebuild we are in the middle of and I hope the people coming in aren’t as short sighted as some of the fans.

However if Ancelotti is available then boot ETH out but there aren’t any strong options out there to replace him.
 
Martinez4midfield said:
You're going to ruin another young managers promising career with the current composition of the squad. I think it also sends a good message that United will honor the full length of the contract and let the manager see out his project.
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Why does this matter? This is one of those things nobody really cares about outside the Caf.

Managers fully understand that sacking is part of the game. They wouldn't be lining up to manage Real, Chelsea, and Bayern otherwise. I've never heard a manager turn down a club based on a suspicion that they won't let him see out his contract.
 
TrebleChamp99 said:
Justvpoopedy head in here to see what people are saying.

Can't believe I'm seeing posts like "players this timr" or "players not the manager".

Forgive me if I am wrong but wasn't there a brief from all the tier 1/2s saying this summer we are having a proper clear out?

Have we all forgotten that it is planned for this summer?

There seems to be an either or attitude toward it , I think it's obvious to the powers that be that most of this playing squad need to go. It's been briefed and reported in the media.

I'm not sure why people are conveniently ignoring two facts.

- Most of the playing squad are up for sale already.

- Most of our starting 11 is comprised of useless ten hag signings.
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Yeah his signings haven't been world beaters, but he had zero fecking help! You had a banker running the club, a DoF who was in way over his head, and had zero profiles on any potential players. Asked for Kane, didn't get him, asked for a FDJ type player, didn't get him. Was ETH finding/signing all the players at Ajax? No, why, because he had a fecking team of people to do that shite for him.
 
So far all the appointments Ineos have done have happened pretty suddenly without the media having much idea of what was coming. Arnold was gone, and suddenly it was announced we were going to get Berrada. There were speculative links to Ashworth because of previous connections to Ineos sport, but when the approach happened it was sudden. Media were still talking about Freedman and Mitchell as being options. And then Wilcox, it just came out of nowhere in the middle of a Southampton game.

I expect them to hold their cards to their chest, similarly closely, with regards to the manager position. And in the interim, the media have nothing else to do other than speculate. And the lack of briefings, which they usually rely on, leads them to believe that we’ll just keep Ten Hag. So I wouldn’t put any stock in what anyone says right now. We’ll just have to wait it out to the end of the season and see.

I would say, that if ETH is to stay, it’s only going to happen with him being told the way the team has to play. As a coach he won’t be given the freedom to coach the team the way he wants. He’ll have to conform to certain structures and parameters. That much has been made clear already.
 
Garethw said:
If they keep him and next season starts in exactly the same way that this season is ending then Ineos will lose all credibility.
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As harsh as that sounds, they have already lost credibility in my eyes. I don't trust this group one bit, seeing how they handled some things at Nice
 
My guess is that he will be 100% gone. Ineos is not going to risk their reputation at stake by keeping him. Just imagine next season we start as the way we end this season. I can certainly see that happening. Ineos and the new structure will lose all credibility fast. It will affects their overall plan to takeover the club too. The need to show that they are competent to run the club and give all parties confidence.
 
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