Unpopular Opinion | Not sacking Ten Hag

[Redstain]

The irony is that ETH did well last season when he was being pragmatic and compromising his preferred vision. His ultimate vision is still a compromise based on his ideal of 'Manchester United DNA' (and probably the belief in the importance of Fernandes and Rashford). It's not like he's moving us into his Ajax style of play, which a lot of us would accept. The key question is, when the process is more ripe, will it bring the best fruit? I'd say no. Therefore we're betting on a niche style with an awkward manager and would continue to waste time and money by funding something that just won't work.

This is my primary issue, there's no evidence to suggest that what the manager wants to do is even viable to being successful. So how does the recruitment, analysts and hierarchy make recommendations for players when the system at hand has demonstrated no corroboration of even being remotely functional?

I would side with the manager if he was trying to implement a proven systematical approach and the personnel at present are unable to comply with the said directives. But you can put a prime Kante and Rodri in there and they won't balance the compromise of how exposed the midfield is whenever a team beats the first press.

 

[VP89]

Let me start by saying that I wanted Jose and Ole out when we were in a similar or even a slightly better position. In my mind, not qualifying for the Champions League should've been an automatic sackable offense for any United manager. And I do acknowledge that Ten Hag is in a position where he probably deserves the sack from a performance, results, and signings perspective. Everyone analyzing Man United knows and accepts that a cultural overhaul is needed. But what defines a cultural overhaul? Is it going to be a change in manager or a change in players? Or both? We know changing the manager is the less complicated option. It also gives the players (another) clean slate to perform. But would it really change the culture? Let's look at plausible scenarios of what would/could happen if we change the manager. Many examples are based on recent history.

• We play well next season but not well enough to challenge for the title. Most probably qualify for the Champions League.
• A few players like Varane, Martial, Eriksen, etc., leave the club.
• One of the new signings performs well, and we think that the culture is changing.
• Rashford scores 20+ goals in the season.
• Players suddenly describe the mood as more positive, and they have found 'smiles on their faces.'
• The subsequent season, we are exactly in the same situation we are now, where the same players are either out of form, injured, or have just given up.

I fear that sacking Ten Hag and getting a new manager is going to land us in the exact same space we've been in for many years. And when the new manager comes in, there is an inevitable feeling, and also financial prudence, where we want to give the same players another opportunity. I would hate to see the likes of Rashford being given their nth chance. It is time for the players to shoulder the burden of our lack of performance and success.

However, if we don't sack Ten Hag, it could go one of two ways:
There is a massive change in the playing squad, and Ten Hag knows his neck is now on the line, and we find the rhythm we were expecting this season. Or he's a dead man walking who gets sacked around October-December. However, unlike previous seasons, we would have a proper team functioning who would ensure that there is no misalignment between the players we have and have signed in the summer, with the new manager who comes in.

Let me be clear. I'm not confident of success if Ten Hag stays. But I would hate for this squad to outlast another manager and then find that the same two-year cycle under a new manager with the same/similar players is happening again. Hence, because we have shown faith in Ten Hag as a high-quality coach, maybe it's time to back him when he would be in a similar structure to when he's thrived previously.

Well I'm Sold on this post and that should come at no surprise.

 

[Dazzmondo]

No. He brought in loads of our worst performing players. Our tactics are terrible and there have been issues since February last season, which were only made worse by ETH getting rid of Fred and leaving us with nobody who can play in his crazy midfield setup. Tactics weren't the reason I wanted Ole or Jose out. In Jose's case it was due to his terrible man management and with Ole the players just seemed to stop trying for some reason (that squad still had a lot of bad eggs that were since sold).

Your casual attitude to just throwing away another season by letting him stay til Oct-Dec is not only ludicrous, but will also further weaken our already desperate financial position. We simply CANNOT afford to miss out on CL again. Anyone expecting us to suddenly challenge for the league next season is delusional, but top 4 is an absolute MUST, and it will not happen under ETH. There'll also most likely be less quality manager options to replace him. You can bet that Tuchel will 100% be off the table.

The idea is that INEOS, Wilcox and Ashworth (when he arrives) are going to be making decisions on who to bring in and get rid of, so any players that they deem necessary to shift is completely independent of whether or not ETH stays. We are in a position where so many players are leaving, and we won't be able to replace them all at once due to our frivolousness over the years. Our squad is already remarkably weak in terms of depth, and it would have been even weaker had Mainoo and Garnacho not stepped up. I think there's a strong chance next season's squad depth will be even weaker (though hopefully we'll at least see some improvement to our first 11).

Honestly, it gets to a point where these ETH defenders need to just swallow their pride and admit they were wrong about him. It's ok to be wrong, everyone is at some point. So many on here seem to just be indifferent to the club continuing to sink further and further down the table. It can absolutely still get worse. Don't believe for a second it can't. Our club has been relegated before. Correct decisions need to start being made.

 

[peridigm]

In my mind, not qualifying for the Champions League should've been an automatic sackable offense for any United manager.

We're in a position to not be in the 3rd tier of European football next season. Think about that for a moment.

• We play well next season but not well enough to challenge for the title. Most probably qualify for the Champions League.
• A few players like Varane, Martial, Eriksen, etc., leave the club.
• One of the new signings performs well, and we think that the culture is changing.
• Rashford scores 20+ goals in the season.
• Players suddenly describe the mood as more positive, and they have found 'smiles on their faces.'
• The subsequent season, we are exactly in the same situation we are now, where the same players are either out of form, injured, or have just given up.

I fear that sacking Ten Hag and getting a new manager is going to land us in the exact same space we've been in for many years. And when the new manager comes in, there is an inevitable feeling, and also financial prudence, where we want to give the same players another opportunity. I would hate to see the likes of Rashford being given their nth chance. It is time for the players to shoulder the burden of our lack of performance and success.

Substitute the players that left and all of your points apply to last season. Why continue with the current manager if we already know the outcome? We don't know what a new manager will bring. Sure, we can speculate, but there are several new factors that will play a big part in how the new manager handles us. Ownership. Actual football people running the club for once.

However, if we don't sack Ten Hag, it could go one of two ways:
There is a massive change in the playing squad, and Ten Hag knows his neck is now on the line, and we find the rhythm we were expecting this season. Or he's a dead man walking who gets sacked around October-December. However, unlike previous seasons, we would have a proper team functioning who would ensure that there is no misalignment between the players we have and have signed in the summer, with the new manager who comes in.

This makes no sense. Why would we sack a manager with a proper functioning team? Your basically saying there are no better alternatives now so let's stick with him until October-December and then hope for a new manager bounce. What top manager is going to be available in that period that is not available this summer?

Let me be clear. I'm not confident of success if Ten Hag stays. But I would hate for this squad to outlast another manager and then find that the same two-year cycle under a new manager with the same/similar players is happening again. Hence, because we have shown faith in Ten Hag as a high-quality coach, maybe it's time to back him when he would be in a similar structure to when he's thrived previously.

I think the writing is on the wall with ETH. This club is in a shambles. It was in a shambles before ETH was hired. He was supposed to be the one to start the rebuild. His signings have been largely disappointing. Apart from a few new players and getting rid of a few, I see no improvement in our style of play, consistency, or results. In fact, you can argue we are worse off now than we were when any of the past 3 managers were in charge. 4 if you count Rangnick. I see no compelling reason to continue into next season with ETH as manager.

 

[Red00012]

If Ineos and the rest tell Ten Hag we will see out your contract but won’t be renewing would he remain or just walk ? I reckon we’ve been so shit this season he’ll stay on and try to
Vindicate injuries were the reason we’ve been so poor

 

[fps]

I don’t think sacking Ten Hag will achieve anything except a rinse and repeat two seasons of disaster where underperforming players get another chance, talk a good game, then start mugging the fans off again.

 

[NicolaSacco]

I don’t think sacking Ten Hag will achieve anything except a rinse and repeat two seasons of disaster where underperforming players get another chance, talk a good game, then start mugging the fans off again.

Then why get a new owner, director of football, chief exec etc, if you think they’ll just make the same mistakes? A well run Man Utd team will be right at the top of the football pyramid.

 

[fps]

So remind us what not sacking will achieve.

Underperforming players with bad attitudes getting kicked out of the club sooner. Neither option is great but I prefer that.

 

[fps]

Then why get a new owner, director of football, chief exec etc, if you think they’ll just make the same mistakes? A well run Man Utd team will be right at the top of the football pyramid.

Neither option, keeping or changing, is good. They are each problematic in different ways.

 

[LawCharltonBest]

James Ducker (telegraph) said that Wilcox will effectively be the one to decide and then implement the club's 'playing style' across the senior and youth teams. Then the club will sign players and hire coaches who suit that style.

A) is there any word on what they style will be?

B) which managers suit the style? (reason I dismiss the Southgate rumours is because he doesn't have one. Potter would be more believable)

 

[pratyush_utd]

If alternatives are Tuchel and Southgate, then i don’t think keeping ETH would not be that unpopular opinion

 

[James35]

Nope, he has to go.

 

[K Stand Knut]

I really like this idea and approach.

Whilst I have at least one foot firmly in the ‘Ten Hag Out’ camp now, I am comfortable there with the caveat that in a perfect world, I’d allow him until Christmas to ‘prove’ himself with the benefit of having the new regime supporting him.

The caveat would be that if he’s not in the top 4 at Christmas, maybe December 1st, he’s gone.

I appreciate all of the shit that has been thrown at him over the last month and I accept that they are wholly indefensible and true. I also accept that we don’t live in a perfect world.

However, I think this is a perfect opportunity for a cultural reset and the culture, whether you like it or not, is mainly set by the players and not an individual person such as the manager.

I would wholly accept him losing his job but I am not confident that we will sack him and also complete the rejuvenation of the players, which I think has to be the priority

 

[Lyng]

Real are successful because La Liga keep 2 teams propped up with a hugely disparate payments setup, not because their fans have high standards.

I am partly intrigued to see what difference, if any, there'd be if he had another window - purely because this tactical setup is clearly a choice given our issues and it's so clear how scattergun our recruitment is (and we have multiple managers now having the same issues) I don't doubt Ineos can find more suited players to a system. That said, the reality is the players are not with him in my opinion and there's another window or two to come before we're through this period of change and jettisoning the bulk of the players who aren't good enough.

Maybe that's a reason to keep him - that there's still a lot of disruption to come - but I do expect he'll be moved on come summer.

If his tactical setup is based around our current issues then that's a massive red flag in itself. This tactic clearly doesn't favor players who are not at their peak physically and we are mostly reliant on such at the moment.

 

[royboy16]

I dont like what we've seen this season and cant wait for the season to end but Id give him some more time to let the new football people we have hired (wilcox, Berrada etc) time to settle into their new role as theres a lot of work to be done and implement the changes slowly otherwise its going to be rinse and repeat again with the next manager.
Erik in for now..

 

[NicolaSacco]

Neither option, keeping or changing, is good. They are each problematic in different ways.

Although you are likely right (ie, there is no perfect option), surely you have to try. Especially as keeping and sacking are really the only two ways forward here. If I was the decision maker I think I’d be trying to create a line on the sand, a complete break with the last season and so I’d get rid, but I admit it’s not a risk free option. Nothing in football is.

 

[Von Mistelroum]

Why are we the club who should just give managers chance after chance?

Would we expect a Madrid manager finishing 8th with 30 shots against his team every match because he can't set them up properly, to get more and more chances to fail?

Shouldn't we be setting a standard that absolutely is not this? Regardless of whether he might go on to do well elsewhere, even if you think he will figure out how to organise the team given another season, giving him more chances after such a disaster sends the wrong message to everyone.

 

[Blood Mage]

If he's still the manager at the start of next season I will have zero hope for the season ahead and I know a lot of fans will feel the same way.

 

[Eric_the_Red99]

Real are successful because La Liga keep 2 teams propped up with a hugely disparate payments setup, not because their fans have high standards.

Exactly. This absurd myth that teams like Real are only successful because their fans riot the moment things go badly on the pitch needs to die.

 

[tomaldinho1]

If his tactical setup is based around our current issues then that's a massive red flag in itself. This tactic clearly doesn't favor players who are not at their peak physically and we are mostly reliant on such at the moment.

What is the alternative? The only thing I have seen which seems plausible is going back to a double pivot but then I honestly wonder if we'd have any goal threat at all and can we really keep teams out. In the final if he's still here maybe he will go for Case-Amrabat as a pair but with so many defenders apparently dead we won't be able to keep City out.

Our main issue, and why I think he's just abandoned the midfield, is there's no pace in the centre of our team. Bruno works hard but he's slow, Case is treacle and is constantly trying to get himself sent off, Mainoo is about average pace maybe, Varane is a slug these days, Maguire a battleship, Licha is average pace, Amrabat is fat, Eriksen looks as weak as Frodo when he got stabbed and turned into a wraith. The recruitment has been so woeful. You can't change who these players are with any formation change or coaching, you just have to deal with it.

 

[Todd]

I really like this idea and approach.

Whilst I have at least one foot firmly in the ‘Ten Hag Out’ camp now, I am comfortable there with the caveat that in a perfect world, I’d allow him until Christmas to ‘prove’ himself with the benefit of having the new regime supporting him.

The caveat would be that if he’s not in the top 4 at Christmas, maybe December 1st, he’s gone.

I appreciate all of the shit that has been thrown at him over the last month and I accept that they are wholly indefensible and true. I also accept that we don’t live in a perfect world.

However, I think this is a perfect opportunity for a cultural reset and the culture, whether you like it or not, is mainly set by the players and not an individual person such as the manager.

I would wholly accept him losing his job but I am not confident that we will sack him and also complete the rejuvenation of the players, which I think has to be the priority

This is a reasonable approach.

I don't know if the current crop of players really would've been able to compete with the top 3, but we never got a chance to find out because our season was wrecked by injuries. It's a fair argument to say that injuries happen to all clubs and you're supposed to build a squad to be 1 through 25, not 1 through 11, but it's fair to say we've had it quite a bit worse than most EPL clubs this season.

So the most generous decision would be to give him half a season and see if he can turn things around.

 

[SparkedIntoLife]

This is my primary issue, there's no evidence to suggest that what the manager wants to do is even viable to being successful. So how does the recruitment, analysts and hierarchy make recommendations for players when the system at hand has demonstrated no corroboration of even being remotely functional?

I would side with the manager if he was trying to implement a proven systematical approach and the personnel at present are unable to comply with the said directives. But you can put a prime Kante and Rodri in there and they won't balance the compromise of how exposed the midfield is whenever a team beats the first press.

Definitely. The only thing one could fatuously argue, though, is that ETH wants us to focus so much on the high press, super open and attacking system until it becomes automatic and then he can reintroduce the defensive principles. It's a hell of a gamble to bet on such a system though. I mean, Klopp obviously introduced aspects of his style systematically. At first, they got loads of muscular injuries as he increased the intensity. Later, they became much more possession oriented when the 'rock and roll football' style was well embedded. I don't see ETH being so systematic though and there's very few hints at the final product.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

He's atrocious and people want to waste another season on him?

Unbelievable.

 

[sugar_kane]

Onana
Bayındır
Malacia
Lisandro
Evans
Kambwala
Casemiro
Amrabat
Mainoo
Eriksen
Mount
Antony
Garnacho
Højlund

14 of the current 26 man squad are his signings/loans/promotions. Forson should probably be included also. 15/27.

This argument is such a stretch. Of those 15 two of them (Bayindir and Kawbwala) have played less than 5 games for us combined. One of them (Forson) has played less than 90 minutes for us total. It would be like saying Tyler Blackett and Paddy McNair were Van Gaal players, and they played far more.

Three of them have been injured nearly all of this season, including two of the starting eleven (Martinez and Mount)

Garnacho and Mainoo are not even 20 years old and this is the first season they've been starters. Hojlund also very young and adjusting to a new league.

Evans wasn't even meant to sign for us he joined us to keep fit and we ended up taking him because our summer transfer business was so shit.

Casemiro it's debatable if he was a Ten Hag preferred signing or a club signing.

Amrabat and Eriksen are fringe players at best.

Of the eleven players with the most appearances this season, 6 were signed before he arrived, and that's excluding Mainoo/Garnacho.

There's plenty to criticise Ten Hag about without making the claim that it's his squad.

 

[AltiUn]

His underlying stats are the worst of any United manager since records began, if they’d been better I wouldn’t be against it but if those stats regress to the mean we’re talking about potential relegation, we were 16th on expected points at one point, he just cannot be allowed to continue lest we end up like Everton.

 

[K Stand Knut]

Another one in the 'waste a season for zero benefit' camp then.

You cant have a cultural reset while keeping a failed manager who cant inspire or motivate the players, current or new, and who doesnt have the trust of the owners (and everyone knows it). Mind boggling.

Can I the lottery numbers for this weekend, please?

 

[Jericho]

I'd be okay with it if we were in a deserved 8th place but we're actually more like a side towards the bottom of the table.

That's exactly how I feel. It feels like if we got the result our performances deserved in every game we might be fighting relegation.

 

[soapythecat]

There is not one single metric I would want to keep ETH at the club next week, let alone next season. The fact his contract only has 1 year left is the added bonus that will see him shown the door. If anyone who has watched us week in, week out this season can see one glimmer of hope that he offers this team then I’d love to hear it. He’s failed miserably and all the injuries have down is highlight how tactically inept he is, as he’s failed to adjust all season. He shouldn’t even be the manager today.

 

[K Stand Knut]

This is a reasonable approach.

I don't know if the current crop of players really would've been able to compete with the top 3, but we never got a chance to find out because our season was wrecked by injuries. It's a fair argument to say that injuries happen to all clubs and you're supposed to build a squad to be 1 through 25, not 1 through 11, but it's fair to say we've had it quite a bit worse than most EPL clubs this season.

So the most generous decision would be to give him half a season and see if he can turn things around.

Yeah. I’m trying to be fair and I am just sick of seeing us sack managers and see the same process repeated on an 18-24 month cycle. It’s monotonous and boring.

I think we could have been a top 4 team again this year. Hampered by injuries though and coupled by the mistakes that Ten Hag continually makes repeatedly, it was just not meant to be.

There are at least 2/3 players whose attitudes absolutely stink the place out weekly and whilst they remain at the club in the main set-up, I don’t see how the culture changes in a positive way.

Is Ten Hag the solution? Maybe. I just find him the most likeable of all our managers since Fergie and just think we should give him a final chance

EDIT - I accept that the last paragraph may be causing me to have a clouded judgement

 

[K Stand Knut]

Just because you cant learn from experience doesn't mean others can't.

Answer me this - If he's here next season, how do you go about convincing the current and new players that their manager will be here beyond the next 2-3 defeats in a row? Because you'll have to do that to even have a hope at getting them to follow Ten Hag's instructions with any degree of commitment and belief.

If they can’t follow their manager’s clear instructions, they either have the wrong attitude or the wrong skill set and should be allowed to leave either way.

You seem to be taking the opportunity to try and turn this into an argument. I’ve clearly stated that I wouldn’t/couldn’t complain about his sacking of that is the route the club choose to go but given a personal opinion.

My experience is that we’ve sacked 3 managers since 2015 and we are still on the same mess. Maybe we could learn from that experience

 

[House Mkhitaryan]

He's not getting the best out of any players. In fact, he is getting the worst out of just about every player in the squad. If getting the most out of the squad is not the #1 job of a coach/manager, what is? He's been absolutely diabolical this season and should have been sacked months ago. How anyone can want him to continue on after what we have seen this season (and end of last season) is mind-boggling.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

Can’t we just stick this in the ETH thread?
and sack him.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Not sure I agree with the premise (as I understand it): the standard (for us in the post-SAF era) scenario really shouldn't happen if INEOS have half a clue what they're doing.

ETH should be sacked and replaced as a coach - not as anything else.

Sure, if the players aren't up to scratch, they need to be replaced by and by - but that shouldn't be the job of ETH's successor.

In other words, if the structure is now - finally - starting to change for the better, the coach should be just that: a coach (someone who is dispensable, relatively speaking).

Now, I personally don't see any very solid arguments for keeping ETH as a coach (rather than replacing him with a different coach). What's he done as a coach (at United) to convince anyone that he should be kept on?

And there's another aspect to this too: he never should have been allowed to feck about with recruitment/squad building/DOF business in the first place - and, yes, you could say that was our stupidity more than his fault, that he was allowed to do this - but the fact is that he did: and it would just look plain bizarre to me if we rewarded him for his extremely underwhelming "manager" stint by letting him continue as "coach". Just - why? Is he that brilliant in the "pure coach" capacity?

 

[Rista]

Underperforming players with bad attitudes getting kicked out of the club sooner. Neither option is great but I prefer that.

What if that wasn't true at all, would your position change? Because keeping Ten Hag most definitely will not mean getting rid of the likes of Rashford sooner.

 

[K Stand Knut]

It's not a United player or Ten Hag specific problem. Any manager at any club who has no time left on his contract, who every player thinks is 1-2 defeats away from the sack, who isn't inspiring or charismatic, is only ever going to end up with one result - sacked.

The only way to keep Ten Hag next season, and not end up forced to sack him after the first defeat or two with players all downing tools, is for the owners to give him a public vote of confidence, and as a bear minimum trigger his contract extension.

Then guess what - if you want to sack him at Christmas, you're paying him £13m+ for the privilege. Rather than the £6.25m it'll cost this summer.

Or, you know, they could stand by him, do what I have suggested and call out the players telling them it is up to them to prove they deserve their place in the team and that they are the talent they believe themselves to be.

I’d make a compromise and say that if getting rid of Ten Hag guaranteed us getting rid of Rashford, I’d probably bite your hand off

 

[Big Ben Foster]

You can tell it's been over 48 hours since we last played, with these types of posts being made again.

 

[Borys]

I am against because he will run young players into the ground very soon.

 

[Yakuza_devils]

Those who said we have given enough time to SAF to flourish. Please remember that we are in modern football now. Many managers nowadays come in straight away perform to very high standard or at least with certain obvious style of play. Pep, Klopp and Arteta also took time but there were clear signs that the style of play was something interesting to build on.

ETH team look the worst coached team in PL after 2 years and 400M. There is nothing to build on. We need to cut losses and look for the right manager. With FFP, we can't afford to throw away another 400M because our team is still so far away form challenging.

 

[Denis79]

On what merits should he keep the job? He has been here for two seasons, it's not like he hasn't been given time.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

On what merits should he keep the job? He has been here for two seasons, it's not like he hasn't been given time.

It's nothing but blind faith at this point. There are zero signs that we're going in the right direction under his coaching.