United's transfer dealings

All 3 United said:
The last few transfer windows, the club and even SAF have let it slip(intentionally) that we are in for some big name or high value target. On occasions even the targeted player appears to be listening to speculation and actually looks to be waiting for us to make our move (IMO RVP this window and last window Nasri). In the end we never actually make our bid or if we do it's ridiculously low and we end up missing out on the supposed target and then its the, 'there's no value etc etc!'

Fact is we have no money and we are trying to make it appear that we do one to appease the fans and another for the potential flotation.

Nett spend since the Glazers have taken over is laughable, certainly compared to the teams we are supposed to be competing with.
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Why isn´t there any money available for transfers? I think this is getting ridicules with all this theories that Sir Alex is covering up that there isn´t any money. If he didn´t feel he had full support by the owners he would have left years ago. He loves this club and there is no way he would protect them.

English isn´t my first language but I will try to explain in a simple way how equity and debt works.

A company isn´t funded by itself. An owner invests money in the company which is called equity. It´s a kind of debt to the owner. If the company needs more money they have to borrow from another external source. Could be a bank. There are debts that are with or without interest. For example a debt without interest could be a payable (debt to a supplier). A debt with interest is usually a loan from a bank.

Everyone is saying that Malcolm Glazer have to pay off the debt. Why? He is a businessman and Money is never for free. An investor usually demands some kind of return of their money which they invested and let´s say they demand at least 10% return on their investment which is quite common. Meanwhile interest cost to a bank could be around 7%. So the cost of money is 7% instead of 10% for Malcolm Glazer.

That´s why there won´t be more money for Sir Alex to buy players even when the debt is paid off. That just means that are more investors who want 10% of what they have invested.

I strongly believe that there is money if needed but I do think that we can´t always compete with crazy wages and agent fees. Malcolm runs our club as a company and if Sir Alex is happy with the owners support then I´m not the right person to disagree. Even if I sometimes wish that the club was owned by someone loving the club and the game and didn´t see it as a way to earn money.
 
londonredmaniac said:
What is evident is we seem to be ignoring areas we need serious investment in.
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SAF probably trusts in Anderson and Cleverley to improve and knows that Carrick will be his main man, and that Kagawa will provide that extra "quality" we've all been wishing for in a more advanced role but will also help out the midfield better than say Rooney in the tighter games. And I haven't even mentioned Scholes there.
 
I'm always right said:
SAF probably trusts in Anderson and Cleverley to improve and knows that Carrick will be his main man, and that Kagawa will provide that extra "quality" we've all been wishing for in a more advanced role but will also help out the midfield better than say Rooney in the tighter games. And I haven't even mentioned Scholes there.
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Some big assumptions there.

I do hope they all come off.
 
Slevs said:
There is no value in the market nowadays.

Before this transfer speculation even started, Lucas Moura; an unknown, unproven young Brazilian, would have signed for Man Utd for a transfer fee of a maximum of 15 million pounds and wages of about twenty to thirty thousand pounds a week. However, the effects of the media speculation make the selling clubs feel that they're being ripped off by a top club so they demand twice the player's true worth. The Brazilians, reportedly, rejected a 26 million pound offer for Moura? Seriously?

Consider the case of Robin Van Persie, an injury prone 29 year old in the last year of his contract. The most I would pay for him would be 10 million pounds, and that is with being pampered by the selling club that it is the right thing to do. Arsenal want 30 million for him? Keep him then.

Remember the Ben Arfa speculation a couple of seasons ago? At the time, the Marseille Chairman thought he had a gem on his hands. When United inquired about Ben Arfa's availability, the chairman demanded 40 million pounds. 40 million pounds for an unproven french teenager. What happened? They kept him, and sold him for a really low fee a couple of seasons later.

We tend to spend money on the true value of a player, not the market value of the player. This method has resulted in some great deals over the past couple of seasons; Hernandez, Smalling, Lindegaard, Fabio, Rafael, and many others over the years.

This club will never pay over the odds for any player, whether it is in the shape of transfer fees, player wages, or agent fees. Forget about the financial power of City, PSG, Madrid, and Barca for a moment here. This club has a stable financial planning model which won't be altered for any player wanting more money than what he is actually worth. We won't alter our transfer budget and our wage structure to pay over the odds for the next 19 year old who is being dubbed as a world class star yet who has proven next to nothing in his relatively short career, nor will we pay over the odds for an established 26 year old whose "dream is to play for United" but won't accept anything less than 200 thousand pounds a week.

You see my friends, a squad has many egos in it. Try explaining to Vidic or Nani, two world class players who are roughly on a hundred thousand pound a week salaries, that the club are signing someone and paying him 200 thousand pounds a week. These two start to think about the unfairness of these negotiations and start to complain to the club about wanting pay rises. Before you know it, players who are worth a hundred thousand pounds a week (Vidic and Nani), are on a hundred and sixty thousand pounds a week.

You might ask, is a 60 thousand pounds increase in a couple of players' salaries realistically going to affect a big club like Manchester United?
Yes, it will. When a club has a stable wage structure, it shouldn't break it, for anyone.

Look at Malaga, media reports are suggesting that the club's rich owners aren't paying the club's previous debts and most of their top players are leaving. The club is basically, according to reports, in financial turmoil. The same financial situation we would be in if we paid over the odds for overpriced players.


You see, the benefit of this stable wage structure is seen in the long term. If, for any unforeseen circumstances, the club doesn't perform well on the pitch, our finances will still be stable thanks to our stable wage structure and good transfer policy. Imagine the same scenario at City. If the owners pull out of the club after City do not perform on the pitch as good as it is expected of them, then the club will be in financial turmoil with players having extraordinary wages with no good wage structure plan.

Consider the time it takes to offload these highly paid players, and the fact that they wouldn't want to leave and would basically bleed the club dry for salaries, the club could seriously face the possibility of bankruptcy, and eventually administration.
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Very good post.
 
Slevs said:
There is no value in the market nowadays.

Before this transfer speculation even started, Lucas Moura; an unknown, unproven young Brazilian, would have signed for Man Utd for a transfer fee of a maximum of 15 million pounds and wages of about twenty to thirty thousand pounds a week. However, the effects of the media speculation make the selling clubs feel that they're being ripped off by a top club so they demand twice the player's true worth. The Brazilians, reportedly, rejected a 26 million pound offer for Moura? Seriously?

Consider the case of Robin Van Persie, an injury prone 29 year old in the last year of his contract. The most I would pay for him would be 10 million pounds, and that is with being pampered by the selling club that it is the right thing to do. Arsenal want 30 million for him? Keep him then.

Remember the Ben Arfa speculation a couple of seasons ago? At the time, the Marseille Chairman thought he had a gem on his hands. When United inquired about Ben Arfa's availability, the chairman demanded 40 million pounds. 40 million pounds for an unproven french teenager. What happened? They kept him, and sold him for a really low fee a couple of seasons later.

We tend to spend money on the true value of a player, not the market value of the player. This method has resulted in some great deals over the past couple of seasons; Hernandez, Smalling, Lindegaard, Fabio, Rafael, and many others over the years.

This club will never pay over the odds for any player, whether it is in the shape of transfer fees, player wages, or agent fees. Forget about the financial power of City, PSG, Madrid, and Barca for a moment here. This club has a stable financial planning model which won't be altered for any player wanting more money than what he is actually worth. We won't alter our transfer budget and our wage structure to pay over the odds for the next 19 year old who is being dubbed as a world class star yet who has proven next to nothing in his relatively short career, nor will we pay over the odds for an established 26 year old whose "dream is to play for United" but won't accept anything less than 200 thousand pounds a week.

You see my friends, a squad has many egos in it. Try explaining to Vidic or Nani, two world class players who are roughly on a hundred thousand pound a week salaries, that the club are signing someone and paying him 200 thousand pounds a week. These two start to think about the unfairness of these negotiations and start to complain to the club about wanting pay rises. Before you know it, players who are worth a hundred thousand pounds a week (Vidic and Nani), are on a hundred and sixty thousand pounds a week.

You might ask, is a 60 thousand pounds increase in a couple of players' salaries realistically going to affect a big club like Manchester United?
Yes, it will. When a club has a stable wage structure, it shouldn't break it, for anyone.

Look at Malaga, media reports are suggesting that the club's rich owners aren't paying the club's previous debts and most of their top players are leaving. The club is basically, according to reports, in financial turmoil. The same financial situation we would be in if we paid over the odds for overpriced players.


You see, the benefit of this stable wage structure is seen in the long term. If, for any unforeseen circumstances, the club doesn't perform well on the pitch, our finances will still be stable thanks to our stable wage structure and good transfer policy. Imagine the same scenario at City. If the owners pull out of the club after City do not perform on the pitch as good as it is expected of them, then the club will be in financial turmoil with players having extraordinary wages with no good wage structure plan.

Consider the time it takes to offload these highly paid players, and the fact that they wouldn't want to leave and would basically bleed the club dry for salaries, the club could seriously face the possibility of bankruptcy, and eventually administration.
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Some on here will applaud a well written sensible post; however we have many who live in the world of tabloid / talk sport speculation when the latest rumour becomes fact. Difficult to know whether to laugh or cry at their blind stupidity.
 
I feel for SAF. He's idenified some great players recently as being able to add an x factor to our team but we keep missing out on them.

Ozil, Sanchez, Nasri, Benzema, Sneijder, Hazard and now Lucas. All would have been fantastic additions, with maybe the exception of Sneijder if he was injured.

It could prove to be a frustrating end of career for SAF if he keeps missing out on the players he wants - all because of externally funded sugar daddy clubs.

It's not United's or Gill's fault. Nor is it really the Glazer's fault - though they sure as he'll haven't helped.
 
I wont be surprised if we buy no one else this year.
 
The Moura thread is closed. So this being related to United's transfer dealings, I thought would go in here.



And Lucas' representative Wagner Ribeiro has admitted that negotiations with the Premier League side had reached an advanced stage.

"Everything was agreed between Sao Paulo and Manchester United," Ribeiro told UOL.

"The contract had been written and just needed to be signed. But then Leonardo called me and asked to talk to Lucas.

"They talked. Leonardo was helped by the fact he is Brazilian. He was very gentle with Lucas.

"The possibility of living in Paris - a much more pleasant city than Manchester - also influenced his decision. But it was PSG's project that impressed Lucas."

Ribeiro also explained the lengths he had gone to in order to seal his client's move to the Parc des Princes club.

"I'm just a worker," he added. "I've not been able to sleep for five days here in Europe. I can't rest and I miss my son.

"I boarded a plane at 5am in Manchester and arrived in Paris this morning to finalise everything with Leonardo.
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PSG Ronaldinhoed us.
 
Those journalists on Twitter said this a few days ago. They knew we had agreed a fee with Sao Paulo, but I don't think many chose to believe this. This is why I questioned what had gone wrong, as you would expect we could thrash out a deal as PSG have instead of walking away 'convinced' it was a done deal.
 
Even if Lucas (his agent) decided to join us, with his attitude, he would feck off to Real Madrid, faster than Ronnie.

SAF had already great instinct in signing Shinji and Powell is doing surprisingly good for an 18 years old kid from a lower league... Now, boss has 3 weeks to think about things going on in the market and figure out what are best available options.

Can't blame the man for that absurdic cash-grab stuff going, in this window. He's a true manager from flesh and blood and he won't throw club's money in panic, on everybody.

In his recent interview or press conference, he said nothing about being happy with the current squad or that he's won't plan further deals... Something may still be done.
 
Van Piorsing said:
Even if Lucas (his agent) decided to join us, with his attitude, he would feck off to Real Madrid, faster than Ronnie.
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Absolutely. We dodged a bullet there. But we should also be more sure of the mentality our future targets possess. Frankly, I'd want to know before someone signs, if they'd prefer Barca or Real to us. And no, not everyone does. Tony V wouldn't, I'd take 11 players with his mentality.
 
"Leonardo was helped by the fact he is Brazilian. He was very gentle with Lucas."

Sounds like the excuse you'd get from a girl at a club why she picked someone else.
 
In other words, they offered him more cash.
 
devilish said:
I wont be surprised if we buy no one else this year.
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Yeah me too. Especially in centre midfield. I think we might just pick up a left back because we have just one. But in midfield I don't think Fergie thinks we need one as badly as us fans do. He seems quite content with his options. I'm not sure why, though.
 
Lucas' agent lacks class.


Either way, feck Lucas. I've always been far more interested in RVP.


Money rules all, including football. Hopefully our financial strength increases a lot in the coming years as we are falling short.
 
amolbhatia100 said:
Yeah me too. Especially in centre midfield. I think we might just pick up a left back because we have just one. But in midfield I don't think Fergie thinks we need one as badly as us fans do. He seems quite content with his options. I'm not sure why, though.
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I thunk it's not that he doesn't acknowledge we are weak in that area but rather the options we can get are not good enough to be worth the bother. Though there are tens if not hundreds of players better than our CMs none that are attainable by Man United are top quality equal to our rivals CMs.

I'm sure we enquired about Modric for instance but we just can't compete for top players unless there are unusual circumstances surrounding the deal, e.g. RVP where no one else can even remotely fit him in out of the top clubs.
 
KingMinger22 said:
Lucas' agent lacks class.


Either way, feck Lucas. I've always been far more interested in RVP.


Money rules all, including football. Hopefully our financial strength increases a lot in the coming years as we are falling short.
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I don't think it's that we can't afford these players it's just that we have a limit to what SAF is willing to pay for a player.

If he thinks it's overpriced and not worth the money the deal won't happen.

We also can't change the fact that the oil-money clubs can spend whatever they want, their financial power can't be matched by clubs that only have TV, competition, merchandising and sponsorship money at their disposal.
 
Van Piorsing said:
Even if Lucas (his agent) decided to join us, with his attitude, he would feck off to Real Madrid, faster than Ronnie.

SAF had already great instinct in signing Shinji and Powell is doing surprisingly good for an 18 years old kid from a lower league... Now, boss has 3 weeks to think about things going on in the market and figure out what are best available options.

Can't blame the man for that absurdic cash-grab stuff going, in this window. He's a true manager from flesh and blood and he won't throw club's money in panic, on everybody.

In his recent interview or press conference, he said nothing about being happy with the current squad or that he's won't plan further deals... Something may still be done.
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Good post and all true except the comment about "abductor cash-gran stuff going, in this window "

It has not been happening just for this window. It has been happening for at least 5 years and is only likely to continue. There is nothing to suggest it is likely to change. In fact, everything suggests - increase football revenues, even more sugar daddy investors, all in a bad economy that will only improve - it will escalate.

I have no problem with comments that it is not the clubs fault we have missed out on the last 7 or 8 top targets. What irritates me is this "value" bullshit and the idea that the market is inflated. It is not going to change any time soon. No chance.
 
NoLogo said:
I don't think it's that we can't afford these players it's just that we have a limit to what SAF is willing to pay for a player.

If he thinks it's overpriced and not worth the money the deal won't happen.

We also can't change the fact that the oil-money clubs can spend whatever they want, their financial power can't be matched by clubs that only have TV, competition, merchandising and sponsorship money at their disposal.
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Real Madrid and Barcarole can compete with the sugar daddies as they offer top whack fees and wages plus prestige. Just like we could if we were fan owned and reinvested everything back in the team. That would be utopia, sure.
 
KingMinger22 said:
Real Madrid and Barcarole can compete with the sugar daddies as they offer top whack fees and wages plus prestige. Just like we could if we were fan owned and reinvested everything back in the team. That would be utopia, sure.
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It wouldn't have to an utopia if the FA just decided to introduce the 50+1 rule where 51% of the club always have to remain with the club which gives these voting rights to it's members.

But like you said it's an utopia and will never happen because in England the clubs are mainly seen as a business.
 
Anyone starting have that feeling of deja vu where we hear rumours of us being in for a number of top class marquee signings, though no stop the press!

*There is no value in the market!
*Player or club want to much much cash!

But wait we are playing the long game, we'll invest in youth and wait for them to turn into superstars and save ourselves a fortune. Let them other clubs sign these worldclass players to add quality to their squads, they haven't got youth academies recruiting and training top talent like us!
 
Whereas City are the transfer market equivalent of a fat old virgin who has just realised he can pay money to score with chicks half his age and then make out to whoever will listen at the bar that he has some kind of mercurial pulling power, United are becoming the old has-been who has lost the knack he once had, fumbling over chat-up lines, perhaps bagging the odd one night stand here and there, but generally looking a little bit silly in their attempts to pull on the Singles night at the Phoenix Club.

Liverpool....well I guess anyone can bag a few mingers if they buy them enough drinks
 
KingMinger22 said:
Real Madrid and Barcarole can compete with the sugar daddies as they offer top whack fees and wages plus prestige. Just like we could if we were fan owned and reinvested everything back in the team. That would be utopia, sure.
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Yeah Madrid and Barca can beat anyone, even those with sugar daddies as they really do have it all. Big transfer fees, top wages paid, prestige of the club, players playing or played for in the past and good weather. We can't compete with them now and couldn't in the 90's for players but its now the smaller clubs getting lucky with rich owners we are struggling with.

Arsenal, Chelsea are very active this summer and City have been in recent times too. Lets no totally forget that we did spend £50m last summer but most of it was more for the future. If we got one top signing on top of the Powell/Kagawa combo that would be good but question is who, no one high profile wants to join us or we don't want to pay what the market is, what others will. So annoying.
 
:lol: 'The project'.... is that the new term for 'they have more money'? Even at QPR (another sugar daddy club, but to a lesser extent) have signings that all talk about 'the project'.
 
If other clubs want to spend silly money year after year I'm fine with that. When they have bloated squads of unhappy players that cannot be sold and FFP hits or their sugardaddy gets in trouble with daddy/Putin/reality clubs such as us and the likes of Bayern Munich and Arsenal will still be here while they could easily end up as the next Portsmouth or Rangers.

When you are beaten to the title by two late goals you don't need to spend a lot of money to get back on top. There are a lot of players out there that would be nice to have but most of them cannot be had at a price that reasonably values the fact that they aren't as valuable to us as they are to their current club. As much as I would like to see us bringing in some cover for Carrick, I see us continuing as we have been doing because there aren't many players that would improve our squad available at the right price for us.

I think we will continue to go after young talent and our signings of established players will be limited to players entering into the last year of their contract as has been the case the last two summers (Young, Kagawa, and possibly Van Persie).
 
beergod said:
If other clubs want to spend silly money year after year I'm fine with that. When they have bloated squads of unhappy players that cannot be sold and FFP hits or their sugardaddy gets in trouble with daddy/Putin/reality clubs such as us and the likes of Bayern Munich and Arsenal will still be here while they could easily end up as the next Portsmouth or Rangers.

When you are beaten to the title by two late goals you don't need to spend a lot of money to get back on top. There are a lot of players out there that would be nice to have but most of them cannot be had at a price that reasonably values the fact that they aren't as valuable to us as they are to their current club. As much as I would like to see us bringing in some cover for Carrick, I see us continuing as we have been doing because there aren't many players that would improve our squad available at the right price for us.

I think we will continue to go after young talent and our signings of established players will be limited to players entering into the last year of their contract as has been the case the last two summers (Young, Kagawa, and possibly Van Persie).
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and your solution to europe is?

When I look at the club, I am not concerned about the league. we will be thereabouts, the margins are thin, we can easily win.

Europe exposes the lack of top-end quality if you can't scouse a run through it.
 
VoetbalWizard said:
and your solution to europe is?

When I look at the club, I am not concerned about the league. we will be thereabouts, the margins are thin, we can easily win.

Europe exposes the lack of top-end quality if you can't scouse a run through it.
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I think it is similar to how we were bounced from Europe back in 2005. Fergie cocked things up royally by overestimating our squad players and we ended up in the semifinal the next season after adding Vidic, Evra, and Carrick.

I think our current squad is miles ahead of where we were back in August 2006 and we should resume business as usual in Europe. I don't know if we will win the whole thing with Real Madrid and Barcelona being as good as they are but I would say we are about at the same level as the likes of Bayern.
 
EvilChuck said:
:lol: 'The project'.... is that the new term for 'they have more money'? Even at QPR (another sugar daddy club, but to a lesser extent) have signings that all talk about 'the project'.
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Yes, it's a euphemism for "we're not ready to win the league/get in the top 4 (delete as appropriate) yet, and so we shouldn't be judged by those standards". Rafa started it.
 
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