Whoever Newcastle are after, we go after and offer them 15% more.
United's transfer dealings
- Thread starter CnutOfAllCnuts
- Start date
Whoever Newcastle are after, we go after and offer them 15% more.
Yes but consider that from time to time Fergusons valuation of a player might be off. I think the stick regarding value is given when he appears to suggest there is no value in the market...when their blatantly is.
The top end of the market is what it is. There is a shitload of money pouring in and out of football and its hyper-inflated. United benefit from this as much as anyone with the massive sponsorship deals. If Ferguson wants to operate at the top end he needs to put up and shut up. If he doesn't think a player is worth it then why does he feel the need to come out and say so? Because he knows that beneath the facade...United are out of their depth right now.
The market for top players has always been inflated. Ferguson never parped on about value when he was throwing millions at Van Nistelrooy, Veron, Ferdinand and Rooney. Even as recent as Berbatov he handed over £30million for a luxury striker. Its a recent phenomenon that reflects the conditions he is operating under.
Our scouting network needs to be much better if we cannot compete at the top end of the market anymore. Get these talents early and develop them like Arsenal but pay them top wages when they are in their prime unlike Arsenal.
Unfortuanetly though as soon as we become involved then other parties will become interested unless we can keep it quiet like the Hernandez transfer.
When I started following football, AC Milan was the big thing. They bought the best players and their youth academy was oozing with great talent. Their supporters had been spoiled rotten by talent we barely see anymore. Van Basten, Gullit, Baresi, Maldini, Baggio, Savicevic, those were players.
With time the money started drying up. At first the fans protested and the owner promised 1 marquee signing per year (even though it may be some big name wreck). Things got worse when Berlusconi was caught in politics and scandals. The money train stopped and the fans protested furiously.
However things changed when Galliani went out and said that the money dried out. His arguments made sense (EPL money, the Spanish tax breaks etc) and the fans calmed down. Im not saying that they happy with it. Many would love to see Berlusconi's back. However they are now realistic about what the club can/cannot do. Such mentality has allowed AC Milan to work with less pressure and with more objectivity. Their signings are low profile, they move fast, they aren't afraid to sign someone else rejects (Van Bommel or Boateng) and there's no drama when they fail to sign the players they want.
I think we need some honestly from the United front especially from the likes of Gill whose usual start of the transfer season. reminds me of a transfer muppet on steriods. We can't compete with the big guys and things are set to get worse as more Arab investors are meant to invest in football.
With time the money started drying up. At first the fans protested and the owner promised 1 marquee signing per year (even though it may be some big name wreck). Things got worse when Berlusconi was caught in politics and scandals. The money train stopped and the fans protested furiously.
However things changed when Galliani went out and said that the money dried out. His arguments made sense (EPL money, the Spanish tax breaks etc) and the fans calmed down. Im not saying that they happy with it. Many would love to see Berlusconi's back. However they are now realistic about what the club can/cannot do. Such mentality has allowed AC Milan to work with less pressure and with more objectivity. Their signings are low profile, they move fast, they aren't afraid to sign someone else rejects (Van Bommel or Boateng) and there's no drama when they fail to sign the players they want.
I think we need some honestly from the United front especially from the likes of Gill whose usual start of the transfer season. reminds me of a transfer muppet on steriods. We can't compete with the big guys and things are set to get worse as more Arab investors are meant to invest in football.
Well, football is so big now, it is very hard to snap up a player low-key. Agents get involved, clubs want best deal available, most of these "top" prospects are known by alot already. Heck even FM is can be used as a scouting network. The problem isnt scouting, it is the selling of the club to these players. Money is the factor currently, rather than creating a career for a historical club.
Players will still get a very good wage here, so we arent able to sell ourselves to these "top" players people moan that we miss out on.
Don't see what else we can do. We were in for Hazard but he wanted to go to helsea. We were in for Moura but got gazumped at the last moment. Both of which we believed were in the bag. We got Kagawa and now we're after RVP. Where does this honesty from the United front come in? Also AC Milan had a lot of success after that period you mentioned and signed some great players.
Not really. Just either be willing to pay the money, or be more realistic with our targets.
Say if there was a really nice house I wanted to buy, and a whole bunch of other people with infinite amounts of money who might want to buy it. What's the best course of action?
1) Pay what the person selling the house is asking for and buy the house before anyone else can.
2) Accept I can't afford the price being asked for and find another house.
or
3) Waste loads and loads of my time pointlessly trying to convince the seller to let me have the house for less than what they're asking, even though they're blatantly not going to because they know it's a very nice house and someone else will eventually pay full whack for it.
What's actually the point in option 3? Just to make sure Gill has something to do during the summer? If we wont compete with the big money clubs I'd rather we stop wasting our time wasting other people's time. It makes us look foolish and weak.
Do you think that if Shitty truly needed RVP we would get him? I much doubt it. RVP is a big name but there's a reason why the big transfer guys are reluctant in spending big money for him. He's 29 with a long injury track record.
I think that a touch of honesty (ie we can't compete with the likes of Barca, Chelsea, Real, PSG and Shitty + we cant pay 6m to agents) would help. It did helped AC Milan when they decided to change their transfer policy.
Wasn't the 90 minute rule abolished? that should help at least in the UK and Ireland
I think it's been obvious for a while with our transfer policy we have a valuation that we stick to and everyone knows it.
What we have is the usual pile of Gill's overoptimism at the end of the season, followed by a couple of disappointment and completed by SAF's end of the transfer season's speech with its 'value' arguments and high morals.
That smells of BS to be honest. The truth is that the only top players we get are the ones that other big clubs doesn't truly need. Nothing wrong with that, however lets admit it. It does help in lowering expectations from the fans and staff.
There are a handful of top quality players around and only a few clubs that can afford to pay those prices. When we, City and now it seems PSG..with thier unlimited millions, we are going to take a backstage.....assuming money is the only consideration.
If for example the RVP transfer happens and he comes here..then you know the player is also considering the prestige of the club.
Its just the reality of things.
If for example the RVP transfer happens and he comes here..then you know the player is also considering the prestige of the club.
Its just the reality of things.
The last few transfer windows, the club and even SAF have let it slip(intentionally) that we are in for some big name or high value target. On occasions even the targeted player appears to be listening to speculation and actually looks to be waiting for us to make our move (IMO RVP this window and last window Nasri). In the end we never actually make our bid or if we do it's ridiculously low and we end up missing out on the supposed target and then its the, 'there's no value etc etc!'
Fact is we have no money and we are trying to make it appear that we do one to appease the fans and another for the potential flotation.
Nett spend since the Glazers have taken over is laughable, certainly compared to the teams we are supposed to be competing with.
Fact is we have no money and we are trying to make it appear that we do one to appease the fans and another for the potential flotation.
Nett spend since the Glazers have taken over is laughable, certainly compared to the teams we are supposed to be competing with.
think Nasri was only going to whomever paid the most...and we were never in for him.
In this case it looks like the club/player did not want to drop their demand and they just accepted a better bid from PSG who must have expressed their interest.
In this case it looks like the club/player did not want to drop their demand and they just accepted a better bid from PSG who must have expressed their interest.
Missing out on players like Nasri, Lucas, Hazard etc. does not look good to fans or the clubs reputation. I believe we are trying our best to sign them and do have the funds but have our limits when it comes to fees and wages and righty so. You take the owners from Man Utd, Chelsea, PSG and City and we would be the only team to survive on how the club is run.
Of course it's important to buy players that we can afford, if that means we can't compete for the best talents in the world anymore due to the fact that other teams can spend whatever they or their target wants then so be it.
We dropped in the food chain into second tier due to the fact that there are teams in the game right now that are willing and able to spend almost any amount of money they want.
So the best we can do imo is look for talented young footballers that we can still afford and hope that we can turn them into the next big thing, basically what we are doing right now.
We dropped in the food chain into second tier due to the fact that there are teams in the game right now that are willing and able to spend almost any amount of money they want.
So the best we can do imo is look for talented young footballers that we can still afford and hope that we can turn them into the next big thing, basically what we are doing right now.
We're always linked with the top muppet signings of the summer like Benzema, Ozil, Sanchez and Hazard, but the reality is we can not compete with the lure of Real Madrid or Barcelona or the money of the sugar daddy clubs. Like NoLogo said we are basically in the second tier when it comes to players prefered destination and as such expecting big names will more often than not, not end well for us.
If you look at our transfer history we've only ever signed 2 world class players in their prime from foreign leegues; Barthez and Veron (Van Nistelrooy had question marks on him because of his injury). Our big signings were either from the Premier League or we looked for young talents and developed them ourselves.
Unfortunately for us, we can no longer raid Premier League clubs like we did in years gone by without being asked to pay ridiculous prices. If Chelsea and City hadn't made 20million plus the going rate for anyone resembling decent, it may be a different story.
Clubs have taken a page out of our book and the type of players all the top clubs want nowadays are the same. Young with potential. Before Real Madrid, Barcelona and the Italian clubs were all looking to buy top players in their prime, while we were looking to buy players like Ronaldo, Nani and Anderson. That's all changed now, and now players like Ronaldo, Nani and Anderson are hyped to the max, have 30 million price tags on them and are the types of players all the big clubs want.
If you look at our transfer history we've only ever signed 2 world class players in their prime from foreign leegues; Barthez and Veron (Van Nistelrooy had question marks on him because of his injury). Our big signings were either from the Premier League or we looked for young talents and developed them ourselves.
Unfortunately for us, we can no longer raid Premier League clubs like we did in years gone by without being asked to pay ridiculous prices. If Chelsea and City hadn't made 20million plus the going rate for anyone resembling decent, it may be a different story.
Clubs have taken a page out of our book and the type of players all the top clubs want nowadays are the same. Young with potential. Before Real Madrid, Barcelona and the Italian clubs were all looking to buy top players in their prime, while we were looking to buy players like Ronaldo, Nani and Anderson. That's all changed now, and now players like Ronaldo, Nani and Anderson are hyped to the max, have 30 million price tags on them and are the types of players all the big clubs want.
There is no value in the market nowadays.
Before this transfer speculation even started, Lucas Moura; an unknown, unproven young Brazilian, would have signed for Man Utd for a transfer fee of a maximum of 15 million pounds and wages of about twenty to thirty thousand pounds a week. However, the effects of the media speculation make the selling clubs feel that they're being ripped off by a top club so they demand twice the player's true worth. The Brazilians, reportedly, rejected a 26 million pound offer for Moura? Seriously?
Consider the case of Robin Van Persie, an injury prone 29 year old in the last year of his contract. The most I would pay for him would be 10 million pounds, and that is with being pampered by the selling club that it is the right thing to do. Arsenal want 30 million for him? Keep him then.
Remember the Ben Arfa speculation a couple of seasons ago? At the time, the Marseille Chairman thought he had a gem on his hands. When United inquired about Ben Arfa's availability, the chairman demanded 40 million pounds. 40 million pounds for an unproven french teenager. What happened? They kept him, and sold him for a really low fee a couple of seasons later.
We tend to spend money on the true value of a player, not the market value of the player. This method has resulted in some great deals over the past couple of seasons; Hernandez, Smalling, Lindegaard, Fabio, Rafael, and many others over the years.
This club will never pay over the odds for any player, whether it is in the shape of transfer fees, player wages, or agent fees. Forget about the financial power of City, PSG, Madrid, and Barca for a moment here. This club has a stable financial planning model which won't be altered for any player wanting more money than what he is actually worth. We won't alter our transfer budget and our wage structure to pay over the odds for the next 19 year old who is being dubbed as a world class star yet who has proven next to nothing in his relatively short career, nor will we pay over the odds for an established 26 year old whose "dream is to play for United" but won't accept anything less than 200 thousand pounds a week.
You see my friends, a squad has many egos in it. Try explaining to Vidic or Nani, two world class players who are roughly on a hundred thousand pound a week salaries, that the club are signing someone and paying him 200 thousand pounds a week. These two start to think about the unfairness of these negotiations and start to complain to the club about wanting pay rises. Before you know it, players who are worth a hundred thousand pounds a week (Vidic and Nani), are on a hundred and sixty thousand pounds a week.
You might ask, is a 60 thousand pounds increase in a couple of players' salaries realistically going to affect a big club like Manchester United?
Yes, it will. When a club has a stable wage structure, it shouldn't break it, for anyone.
Look at Malaga, media reports are suggesting that the club's rich owners aren't paying the club's previous debts and most of their top players are leaving. The club is basically, according to reports, in financial turmoil. The same financial situation we would be in if we paid over the odds for overpriced players.
You see, the benefit of this stable wage structure is seen in the long term. If, for any unforeseen circumstances, the club doesn't perform well on the pitch, our finances will still be stable thanks to our stable wage structure and good transfer policy. Imagine the same scenario at City. If the owners pull out of the club after City do not perform on the pitch as good as it is expected of them, then the club will be in financial turmoil with players having extraordinary wages with no good wage structure plan.
Consider the time it takes to offload these highly paid players, and the fact that they wouldn't want to leave and would basically bleed the club dry for salaries, the club could seriously face the possibility of bankruptcy, and eventually administration.
Before this transfer speculation even started, Lucas Moura; an unknown, unproven young Brazilian, would have signed for Man Utd for a transfer fee of a maximum of 15 million pounds and wages of about twenty to thirty thousand pounds a week. However, the effects of the media speculation make the selling clubs feel that they're being ripped off by a top club so they demand twice the player's true worth. The Brazilians, reportedly, rejected a 26 million pound offer for Moura? Seriously?
Consider the case of Robin Van Persie, an injury prone 29 year old in the last year of his contract. The most I would pay for him would be 10 million pounds, and that is with being pampered by the selling club that it is the right thing to do. Arsenal want 30 million for him? Keep him then.
Remember the Ben Arfa speculation a couple of seasons ago? At the time, the Marseille Chairman thought he had a gem on his hands. When United inquired about Ben Arfa's availability, the chairman demanded 40 million pounds. 40 million pounds for an unproven french teenager. What happened? They kept him, and sold him for a really low fee a couple of seasons later.
We tend to spend money on the true value of a player, not the market value of the player. This method has resulted in some great deals over the past couple of seasons; Hernandez, Smalling, Lindegaard, Fabio, Rafael, and many others over the years.
This club will never pay over the odds for any player, whether it is in the shape of transfer fees, player wages, or agent fees. Forget about the financial power of City, PSG, Madrid, and Barca for a moment here. This club has a stable financial planning model which won't be altered for any player wanting more money than what he is actually worth. We won't alter our transfer budget and our wage structure to pay over the odds for the next 19 year old who is being dubbed as a world class star yet who has proven next to nothing in his relatively short career, nor will we pay over the odds for an established 26 year old whose "dream is to play for United" but won't accept anything less than 200 thousand pounds a week.
You see my friends, a squad has many egos in it. Try explaining to Vidic or Nani, two world class players who are roughly on a hundred thousand pound a week salaries, that the club are signing someone and paying him 200 thousand pounds a week. These two start to think about the unfairness of these negotiations and start to complain to the club about wanting pay rises. Before you know it, players who are worth a hundred thousand pounds a week (Vidic and Nani), are on a hundred and sixty thousand pounds a week.
You might ask, is a 60 thousand pounds increase in a couple of players' salaries realistically going to affect a big club like Manchester United?
Yes, it will. When a club has a stable wage structure, it shouldn't break it, for anyone.
Look at Malaga, media reports are suggesting that the club's rich owners aren't paying the club's previous debts and most of their top players are leaving. The club is basically, according to reports, in financial turmoil. The same financial situation we would be in if we paid over the odds for overpriced players.
You see, the benefit of this stable wage structure is seen in the long term. If, for any unforeseen circumstances, the club doesn't perform well on the pitch, our finances will still be stable thanks to our stable wage structure and good transfer policy. Imagine the same scenario at City. If the owners pull out of the club after City do not perform on the pitch as good as it is expected of them, then the club will be in financial turmoil with players having extraordinary wages with no good wage structure plan.
Consider the time it takes to offload these highly paid players, and the fact that they wouldn't want to leave and would basically bleed the club dry for salaries, the club could seriously face the possibility of bankruptcy, and eventually administration.
well...to my mind this is the key. And this is why the club really have been trying to buy a marquee player (ok...so moura is not exaclty marquee, but he's Brazilian...and the Amercians still think pele is playing!). It perhaps adds value by showing a financial strength, health if you like. Not sure...
Looks like we're getting outprices by the external-cash clubs.
PSG, City, Chelsea all this season.
PSG, City, Chelsea all this season.
Which isn't much of a surprise. Until UEFA remove a team from the CL for violating FFP I suspect we'll continue to be unable to match those three in wages or spending.
Even if we made a sizable increase in our wages and stretched our transfer spending to the limit, these clubs would just increase their offers the same or more. None of their expensive purchases are "worth it", monetarily, they don't care what they pay, their spending is limited by the whim of a billionaire, not by their own income.
Even if we made a sizable increase in our wages and stretched our transfer spending to the limit, these clubs would just increase their offers the same or more. None of their expensive purchases are "worth it", monetarily, they don't care what they pay, their spending is limited by the whim of a billionaire, not by their own income.
You can't expect to get the top level players or young players if we tell the clubs what they are worth, it doesnt work like that. Lots would be interested in Lucas and RVP so if we wanted them we should have paid up OR look at lesser players. Hazard, Ronaldinho etc same thing.
I might try it to someone on Ebay, send them an offer for their set buy it now or reserved item telling them what I think its worth and see where it gets me...
I might try it to someone on Ebay, send them an offer for their set buy it now or reserved item telling them what I think its worth and see where it gets me...
Why won't the club just come out and say we can't afford the marquee players these days, it would save everyone a lot of time and bother, not to mention endless speculation over us signing such and such every few minutes. There was more chance of us signing Wesley Snipes last year than Wesley Sneijder, not that I'm disappointed on that one, it just would be nice to see more realism from large sections of our support and the media. With our ridiculous debt it would be stupid to take on PSG, City and Chelsea in the transfer market.
We bid close to £30m on Hazard and Lucas, and are bidding £15m for a 29 year old RVP.
It's not that we can't afford these players, it's that we keep getting spanked by clubs willing to pay ridiculous fees, or practically bribe the agents into giving them the player. That's not the way we operate, and it won't be whilst we're not owned by a billionaire oil baron. SAF basically said that himself
What annoys me is that I think we're bidding on the wrong players. I don't know why we're going for the players listed above when we're so lacking in other areas.
Why can't we just sign a midfield player where there is still value left? I mean, even a loan deal for that Sahin bloke. Who knows, maybe next year there may be a player on the cheap we'll be able to replace him with.
Never mind Van Persie, let's please sign a midfield player Fergie
Never mind Van Persie, let's please sign a midfield player Fergie
If we were willing to pay £30m for Lucas and £20m for RVP, does that mean we have £50m to spend?
Yes, the club should come out and say that we can't get the best players. All to save the fans from speculating. Jeeez.
I think we definitely have 30m anyway, based on Hazard and Lucas. Whether we actually have 50m is debatable, we may have been bidding for both RVP and Lucas but only actually wanting to buy one of them, if that makes any sense.
Thats one of the silliest things i've read
What message does that send out to the current players? How long before Rooney would clear off?
The fact is papers have always made sensational headlines based around transfers, i remember some of them from when i was a kid. But now with the rise of social media and everyone jumping on every single tweet that comes out of god knows where, the fans are hyping up their own expectations. Its not the clubs doing it. Its the media, but driven by what the fans expect. So maybe it should start with you guys, next time you think about retweeting something
Whatever a good transfer policy is, it's a sure bet it doesn't involve bidding ludicrous money for players we don't actually need, and then still being outbidded by other clubs and shunned by the players anyway.
A better thing to do than this would be anything that isn't just a massive waste of time. e.g. nothing, actually signing players we actually need, a trip to the zoo, etc.
A better thing to do than this would be anything that isn't just a massive waste of time. e.g. nothing, actually signing players we actually need, a trip to the zoo, etc.
That's a good question about Rooney because if we have another barren season he's likely to put in another transfer request.
To be fair most payments are made over a number of years, very rarely its a 1 off lump sum.
So yes in theory we could spend what we like but it needs to be accounted for across the years.
Slow down a bit Solius, I think you are adding 30 and 20 and getting 50 there mate.
Off topic, don't suppose you live or work in Crayford?
That's what the club would like you and other fans to believe, yes.
There will always be a club somewhere that's more attractive to most (non Brit) players, whether that's because they've got more money, or more lifestyle appeal. That hasn't changed.
I don't like seeing us making these play and miss attempts when bidding for players. This summer it's all too public, and rather undignified. Unfortunately we're in an era with an internet, a lot of blabbermouth clubs/agents and a global market.
However when it comes to our transfers, what I'm interested in are the ones who come not the ones who get away. I don't mind the hopeful punts on young or lower profile players. The thing I'll worry about is if we go for second bests (or third or fourth or ...) - the Liverpoolesque path of money going out without first XI quality coming in, or even the Real Madrid pattern of a few years back where they ended up buying players "for the squad" and blocking out their own youth.
Young, for me, was a borderline purchase. Baines would be another. I'd rather risk the cash on an Isco or even someone whose name I haven't yet heard who could become a top choice.
I don't like seeing us making these play and miss attempts when bidding for players. This summer it's all too public, and rather undignified. Unfortunately we're in an era with an internet, a lot of blabbermouth clubs/agents and a global market.
However when it comes to our transfers, what I'm interested in are the ones who come not the ones who get away. I don't mind the hopeful punts on young or lower profile players. The thing I'll worry about is if we go for second bests (or third or fourth or ...) - the Liverpoolesque path of money going out without first XI quality coming in, or even the Real Madrid pattern of a few years back where they ended up buying players "for the squad" and blocking out their own youth.
Young, for me, was a borderline purchase. Baines would be another. I'd rather risk the cash on an Isco or even someone whose name I haven't yet heard who could become a top choice.
you are aware that a contract was with Moura's agent, awaiting his signature? Seems a wee bit over the top if the intention was to fool "you and other fans", doesn't it?