Well, Mata has played a lot of his career in this weird role that you talk about. VG didn't discover it for him.
United under LvG: verdict so far!
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Well, Mata has played a lot of his career in this weird role that you talk about. VG didn't discover it for him.
Mata best years was as a pure no 10 at Chelsea. I never seen anyone here or everywhere else would suggest that he would be perfect on the right wing for us. I've seen plenty suggest that we should drop him if we can't accommodate him as a no 10
I am afraid that is not true. At Chelsea in his first sesaon he was mostly on the left of their 433 and during his second second played on the right a lot. He did play a lot games at 10 in the Europa games, otherwise Oscar was used as a 10.
I don't know where he play other club, but I never thought Mata will flourish in right wing.
So I think both Mata and LVG deserve credit for it.
I still don't think he's getting enough credit.
I have 3 defensive line ups in my mind from earlier in the season:
Swansea: Lingard, Jones, Smalling, Blackett, young. Lingard had to be replaced by Januzaj after 20 or so minutes.
City: For most of the 2nd half we had to play Valencia, McNair, Carrick, Shaw.
Arsenal: Valencia, Blackett, Smalling, McNair, Shaw. Shaw was replaced by Young after 10 or so minutes.
Most of those defences would not look out of place in sides trying to stay in the division, let alone pushing for top 4. There were probably many more like this but these 3 really emphasise just how our options have been so limited in the first half of the season. I don't think he really had much choice but to play defensively given injuries and the players available to him. I don't think many other managers in the world would have us 3rd, above City and with the 3rd best defensive record under the same circumstances. Not many would have us in the top 4 either.
I have 3 defensive line ups in my mind from earlier in the season:
Swansea: Lingard, Jones, Smalling, Blackett, young. Lingard had to be replaced by Januzaj after 20 or so minutes.
City: For most of the 2nd half we had to play Valencia, McNair, Carrick, Shaw.
Arsenal: Valencia, Blackett, Smalling, McNair, Shaw. Shaw was replaced by Young after 10 or so minutes.
Most of those defences would not look out of place in sides trying to stay in the division, let alone pushing for top 4. There were probably many more like this but these 3 really emphasise just how our options have been so limited in the first half of the season. I don't think he really had much choice but to play defensively given injuries and the players available to him. I don't think many other managers in the world would have us 3rd, above City and with the 3rd best defensive record under the same circumstances. Not many would have us in the top 4 either.
Ofcourse they do, but that doesn't mean that we have to go overboard and adorn him as a genius for inventing a new position to fit Mata.
Are you saying Mata was there to pick up on right wing, and LVG just some how didn't get it until last few game?
You're loathed to credit Van Gaal with anything aren't you.
I'm not saying he should be credited with the genius move of shifting Mata out to the right (Moyes tried it last season and was blasted for using someone without pace wide) but you're like a one man crusade to make it absolutely clear that whatever we have got right this season is either in spite of Van Gaal or blindingly obvious and should have been done before.
No, I am saying that he was there to be picked across the line in attack. This isn't the first time he has played there, so I am not going to hail VG as a genius for inventing the positon for Mata as the poster mentioned.
With a player like Mata I don't think it's that much about position but more about playing the right players around him.
You're loathed to credit Van Gaal with anything aren't you.
I'm not saying he should be credited with the genius move of shifting Mata out to the right (Moyes tried it last season and was blasted for using someone without pace wide) but you're like a one man crusade to make it absolutely clear that whatever we have got right this season is either in spite of Van Gaal or blindingly obvious and should have been done before.
You are an idiot if you think I am there to discredit him. Though, neither is he my son nor am I his PR agency to make shit up in order for him to look good. I will always judge him based on what I see on the pitch. Not based on reading some philosophy books or in order to prepare myself for future 'I told you so' contests on a United forum.Where did I say whatever we have achieved this season (which is actually nothing so far) is inspite of VG?
And yes, there obviously are things which he should have done before, I don't even know how can any dispute that. Though, none of that matters in the end. What will matter is how we finish and how he does in the future. And I am going to reserve my judgement on that for that time.
Actually, we have already achieved a lot: we now compete with City. Last year we competed with Everton. The difference is huge.
Mata has been used in different formation and different position, but unfortunately its didn't work-out before. You have to remember LVG has to give chance to other players also.
Last season Mata also play right wing, and we have discussion how we are wasting Mata's talent by using him on wing (same as we have discussion about ADM).
Thing is now we are playing system(tactics) which suit Mata and its bring best out of him.
Now you can say its some brilliant from LVG as using right tactics or its just pure luck, its up to you.
so far so good, and from what I've heard his starting periods at clubs aren't all that successfull, it's mostly about starting from scratch and building a solid foundation, on which to improve on later on. IMO the team just now sort of started getting the hang of it, ofcourse having a somewhat healthy squad (with a few lucky injuries) did help, but it was always gonna take time, granted it took longer than we thought it would (again, injuries were a bitch this season, then again it's been like that for the past 5 seasons atleast).
I don't wanna sound like a scouser, but next season is the one I'm really pumped for, as he'll have more time with the team and consequently know each player that much better and in turn they'll be used to his "philosophy" that much more, and he'll also have a better idea about what needs to get done to fix our problematic areas, as in who to get in to the team and who to cut out..
I don't wanna sound like a scouser, but next season is the one I'm really pumped for, as he'll have more time with the team and consequently know each player that much better and in turn they'll be used to his "philosophy" that much more, and he'll also have a better idea about what needs to get done to fix our problematic areas, as in who to get in to the team and who to cut out..
I really, really, REALLY hope we don't have our usual early season injury crisis next season.
So, tactics/formation nerd, Jonathan Wilson, thinks Van Gaal has been genuinely innovative this season:
http://www.theguardian.com/football...l-masterstroke-fellaini-deep-lying-target-man
http://www.theguardian.com/football...l-masterstroke-fellaini-deep-lying-target-man
Rather than a verdict, I'll give Louis a grade: A-
The midfield experiment for Rooney went on too long, but otherwise his management has been absolutely stellar this season.
The midfield experiment for Rooney went on too long, but otherwise his management has been absolutely stellar this season.
As things stand, i'll give him a B.
Playing Rooney in midfield and persisting with RVP and Falcao when it was obvious it wasn't working for as long as he did means he can't get higher than a B for me, even if we won the league by some miracle. Plus all those tumescent performances whereby our only hope was to pump it high to Fellaini.
Glad the way we've been playing recently though and we've also been decent in the big games. The double over Liverpool is a nice bonus this year regardless of their season.
Glad the way we've been playing recently though and we've also been decent in the big games. The double over Liverpool is a nice bonus this year regardless of their season.
Positive for me. Last season we were 7th, now we're not. He's tried some things, some of it didn't work, he changed it again, we're on a decent run now. I like that he's not afraid to change things and revert back if needed. He's got Fellaini playing well. Things look good. We need some investment still, but I'm sure it will come. Every manager makes mistakes, every manager buys shit players at some times, over pays at others, gets bad results. So what, life goes on. On the whole I'm positive.
So the basis of that article is that Van Gaal has come up with something entirely new. But then when it describes how we have shaped up in the last few games he says Fellaini is playing in the same position that Moyes used him in at Everton. Am i missing something?
"his great innovation – his great joke, almost – has been the use of Marouane Fellaini as a deep-lying target man."
I mean this in the nicest possible way... but wasn't this Moyes' innovations... at Everton?
If you had the Moyes' team with no managerial change, said you would be losing Rio, Vidic and Evra. Then asked, where do you think we'll be going into this derby?
If you'd said 3rd above City, they'd have been carting you off in a padded bus.
I'm very happy.
It how far we have come that determines how he has done.
If you'd said 3rd above City, they'd have been carting you off in a padded bus.
I'm very happy.
It how far we have come that determines how he has done.
Maybe he means that from A to B,B is the same position but he does not come from same A spot.
Maybe. It isnt very clear though is it.
I believe the whole piece can be interpreted as a dig at Moyes. Fellaini wasn't the only thing Moyes had gotten right during his time at Everton. He, alongside Ferguson, were two of the very first PL managers who understood the importance of the overlapping/underlapping full backs in the modern game, since Barca's dominance, and how much a team can benefit from having FBs that can offer assists and goals from the wide areas.
The thing is Moyes was way too hesitant to try any of his best ideas at United. In each and every game you could see us playing with two flat lines of four with the players rarely attacking the open spaces and rarely trying to move forward and make themselves available. It felt like our ultimate goal was not to break this two lines of four, whatever the cost.
Fellaini's transfer wasn't received very well by lots of United fans, either because they believed that a club of our stature shouldn't be trying to cross the ball towards a target man in the box or because they felt it was a move that was degrading the club to Moyes' level at Everton. I don't know how much Moyes was affected by all that but the truth is that he didn't try Fellaini as a target man, even when anything else he tried had failed.
On the other hand LvG never gave a flying rat's arse about what everyone thinks or says but he changes formations, tries players in different positions and alters the tactics in order to get it right. And it is kind of ironic ,for Moyes, that we seem to be finally getting somewhere with Fellaini as a deep lying target man and Herrera in the midfield. The former was introduced to the PL and the second was thoroughly scouted but never signed by Moyes.
He says that Moyes used him as a second striker at Everton but Van Gaal is using him in a deeper role. Instead of hanging around up front he's intermittently arriving there from deep. Which is, according to JW anyway, both novel and difficult to defend against (because he's running onto high balls, instead of waiting to receive them).
Well considering that players who move between 2 lines of defence are the hardest to defend against, that could be powerful indeed. The sine qua non condition is that when there is a cross, Fellaini has to be on the move and not wait in the box in order to benefit from this advantage.
I think it would have a similar effect if a tall striker like Crouch begins to drift deeper in the midfield and challenges for the ball right out of the box but well, as long as Fellaini does the job, why complain... I think Moyes could have done better provided he followed his guts. After all, indeed, he used Fellaini in a similar role at Everton and he was thinking of Herrera. Two very different players in the midfield. One strong player and one very technically gifted player.
Still very happy with Louis.
Well Fellaini is starting in midfield and moving forward, in defence he is a CM but when in attack he operates as a second striker almost. This means when he is challenging for aerial duels in midfield he has an advantage because he tends to be bigger than opposition offensive players but against defenders it is more difficult however because he comes from deep and so has a run on them it also makes it difficult to defend against him.
Furthermore he has a decent skill set that allows him to be useful in midfield, he is good at winning the ball back, he offers physicality and also he can play a simple passing game but also in attacking areas he has a decent shot and so can chip in with a few goals.
The position doesn't expose his weaknesses such as positional discipline and decision making, when he was played deeper he was not the best at defending the spaces (when compared with Carrick) nor at passing the ball quickly to the right player, he was losing the ball in dangerous areas.
Now for Crouch to perform a similar role he would need to be able to operate in central midfield areas and I don't think he can do that, I think most big strikers probably aren't good enough in midfield to perform the role but also most big central midfielders probably wouldn't be as effective in attacking areas. They could perform the target man role but Fellaini does more than that, he is actually a decent second striker.
Fellaini is merely one player but Louis van Gaal has found a role for him that justifies him as a squad player for a club like Man United (next season) and also a role that can make him very effective against certain teams. Carrick and Herrera in midfield is light and so Fellaini's physicality will be important especially in the bigger games but that's in defence, when in attack he can be a nuisance for defenders who will already have their hands full with our attacking talent (di maria, Mata, Herrera, Carrick, Rooney etc.).
Herrera performs a creative role but does it from deeper, Fellaini will push forward and Herrera will look to arrive into the box late where also he is effective. Louis van Gaal's preference tends to be two defensive players and one offensive creative player with the creative player operating furthest forward of the three but he has adapted and made Carrick, Herrera and Fellaini work well, in fact they all complement each other and make a good team, they split what we need between them.
Herrera can speed up our game and offers the explosiveness when we needed it, Carrick reads the game and is always well positioned, Fellaini will get stuck in and show his strength. Louis van Gaal is all about team work, that three works well together but so does the partnership of Mata, Herrera and Valencia, again all offering different qualities, even Young, Fellaini and Blind have worked well together, Young is very predictable but Blind aggressively attack the overlap so even if the defender knows Young will cut likely into on his right Blind will be overlapping.
It's a bit like ultimate team and those chemistry connections, even the relationship between the CDM and CBs, it's very important and that's why we are confident going into the big matches. On paper we do need to improve our quality of players however Louis van Gaal doesn't care for individuals therefore providing there are no egos he will build a team and he has done that, the chemistry allows us to work well, I doubt Fellaini or Young or even Mata as a RW will feature as much next season because he will have a better selection but he will still build an excellent team by making the most of his selection, the team work will be visible all over the pitch and it should have the balance he talks of, that is achieved when players help each other out, the physical players get stuck in where they are needed and the technical players create, the quick players provide the pace, those with excellent positioning minimise the space available to the opposition attack etc.
Who would swap Van Gaal for Klopp this summer if the option was there to do so?
Considering the ages of the two, Van Gaal being midway through a project, how Klopp has performed this season, the style of play you want to see here etc.
Klopp's stock is presumably down but do people still see him as the ultimate manager for us? And would people like to lock him in now, or would we benefit more from continuing our football education under Van Gaal for another couple of years?
Personally Im happy to double down with Van Gaal. I think Klopp will end up at Arsenal anyway.
Considering the ages of the two, Van Gaal being midway through a project, how Klopp has performed this season, the style of play you want to see here etc.
Klopp's stock is presumably down but do people still see him as the ultimate manager for us? And would people like to lock him in now, or would we benefit more from continuing our football education under Van Gaal for another couple of years?
Personally Im happy to double down with Van Gaal. I think Klopp will end up at Arsenal anyway.
He has said that he promised his wife but we will see. I think he would probably like to make it 5 years before he leaves.
No chance.
Yeah, I feel like he's starting to really love the club and the fans. After one full season of the Prem he'll have a real grasp on the league and will have the hunger to dominate it.
Can definitely see him staying here for 5 years, if all goes well on the field.
His wife will understand. As long as he keeps servicing her in the way only he knows how, she's putty in his hand.
No, especially now that we seem to be finally getting somewhere with LvG. Klopp is a great manager and his teams usually play very attractive football but his tactical approach is quite different from van Gaal's. The pressing is way more intense and is applied higher on the pitch, the passing is more direct and this means that the players will have to begin from scratch and learn a new playing style once again. It's already taken us 8 months to see some light at the end of the tunnel.
Furthermore, the last couple of seasons showed how much Klopp's teams struggle when the initial strategy isn't working well and the team can't find any decent form for a long period of time. Dortmund have thrown away so many points in the last couple of seasons because they can't do some of the most basic things right. They are consistently bad at defending set pieces, when they lose the ball high on the pitch their defensive transition is hilarious and they don't seem to know what to do with the ball when plan A (press high to steal the ball and play the quick pass forward) isn't working. And they simply can't control the tempo of their games, slow things down and kill off the game when it's necessary.
These are all areas in which we have shown improvement under LvG this season. Imo we should stick with him and then try to get a manager with similar ideas.
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Sounds like he'll be perfect for Arsenal then. Complete dogma about doing things a certain way and no discernible plan b when it doesnt work.
I'm very happy with his work with the first team squad. I'd appreciate it if anyone who watches them regularly could give an update on how the U21s and U18s are doing in terms of adopting a similar style of play.
If we had to replace Van gaal, it should be for possession oriented coach, I think that we should adopt definitely this tactical approach, it will ease everything, the youth development, the transfers, the transitions between two teams or two managers.
We have the money to be a one style , one philosophy club.
He is dutch, and we know how they play the game on that front
I think I will give VG a B+. I think he has made some really weird and daft decisions, maybe for the greater good short and long term, who knows. But I never liked the idea of playing rooney in midfield because he just does not have the weapons to be that midfield maestro, and it never helped with falcao and RVP upfront who are also immobile which was taken up the spots for midfielders who could do better. When guys like mata and herrera are far better technical, and they know how to just keep that ball moving in that flued Spanish way they know best. For VG's possession dominating model to work, he had to drop RVP and Falcao, and stick rooney upfront, especially since he named rooney captain, and we know how VG feels about his captains.
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