Results have been poor.
He needs some time to get it right.
Most of the rest is just noise.
He needs some time to get it right.
Most of the rest is just noise.
United under LvG: verdict so far!
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I am a little underwhelmed to be completely honest. There have been too many excuses, 1st there was the tour, then the balance of the squad, then the confidence, then the injuries, then the philosophy kicking in.
For someone that came with a reputation, he doesn't actually install me with confidence. Going away anywhere at the moment, I don't expect a win, when we played Sunderland, I can actually remember being really worried - which in hindsight is ridiculous.
I'm still sure he will get things right, but I have to admit I'm a little disappointed with his (lack of) attitude...
Not being able to get one win from Sunderland, Burnley, Leicester, WBA no matter how it is dressed up - it's a fecking disgrace.
For someone that came with a reputation, he doesn't actually install me with confidence. Going away anywhere at the moment, I don't expect a win, when we played Sunderland, I can actually remember being really worried - which in hindsight is ridiculous.
I'm still sure he will get things right, but I have to admit I'm a little disappointed with his (lack of) attitude...
Not being able to get one win from Sunderland, Burnley, Leicester, WBA no matter how it is dressed up - it's a fecking disgrace.
Nah, we hammered them in the 3-2 win (league). It was only after Young had a goal inexplicably ruled out that City gained momentum. Before that, we were all over them.
I wasn't talking about the league, I was talking about the FA cup in 2012. Rooney header for 1-0, then Kompany got sent off. We went 3-0 up, and then second half their 10 men battered us.
You make a good point. I definitely agree that we aren't as organised as we could be. And that a lack of organisation would lead to a lack of confidence. But at the end of the day we finished 7th last season. Any way you look at it we were well off a top four place and as a manager, doesn't matter who it is, be it Guardiola, Mourinho or van Gaal, turning around a side that had fallen so far is always going to be a massive task. Doesn't matter how much you spend on players, you can't just imbue a team with success like that. It takes time. And, more to the point, confidence is something that can't be underestimated.
When Mourinho first took charge of Chelsea back in 2004 I thought that it was the confidence he brought to the team that was the most significant thing. It was like they suddenly started believing they could be champions. Yes they improved defensively, but I think it could be argued that they improved down back partially due to the fact that they started to believe that they could win every match. Mourinho gave them a resolve that they had previously lacked. Nothing to do with signings or tactics. It was entirely between the ears. Players like Lampard and Terry started walking taller on the pitch because of it.
I agree though that a lack of organisation (or tactical direction) would contribute to a lack of confidence. Don't believe though that it necessarily the source of our problems. Will be interesting to see how things pan out over the next few months anyway.
You said, "I don't recall smashing City in the last 5 years or so." I'm telling you we did.
Definitely below-par as of now, I don't see how anyone could argue otherwise actually.
The positives are we are showing encouraging signs in terms of our attacking play. I don't go along with the notion that we have looked excellent or dangerous in attack however. We look decent and there is quite clearly a distinct improvement in our offensive game and midfield play than under Moyes, but with an outlay of close to £150M on an assortment of quality across numerous positions that is to be expected. I would expect the kind of improvement we've seen under any manager in charge of our of Premier League rivals truth be told, so it's nothing to shout about.
Whereas our attacking play, perhaps doesn't reflect our true position in the table, our results reflect very modestly on our position however. Thirteen points from ten games and still in the top of the table is hugely fortunate and illustrates just how inconsistent nearly every side ranging from fourth to seventeenth has been. Especially, given our fixture list, it is actually a joke that we've accumulated so few points.
All that points to a disappointing start from van Gaal, but I still remain positive that he can turn things around and I still believe he is the right man for the club. Hopefully we will start to see a LvG side really starting to form and take shape come the new year.
The positives are we are showing encouraging signs in terms of our attacking play. I don't go along with the notion that we have looked excellent or dangerous in attack however. We look decent and there is quite clearly a distinct improvement in our offensive game and midfield play than under Moyes, but with an outlay of close to £150M on an assortment of quality across numerous positions that is to be expected. I would expect the kind of improvement we've seen under any manager in charge of our of Premier League rivals truth be told, so it's nothing to shout about.
Whereas our attacking play, perhaps doesn't reflect our true position in the table, our results reflect very modestly on our position however. Thirteen points from ten games and still in the top of the table is hugely fortunate and illustrates just how inconsistent nearly every side ranging from fourth to seventeenth has been. Especially, given our fixture list, it is actually a joke that we've accumulated so few points.
All that points to a disappointing start from van Gaal, but I still remain positive that he can turn things around and I still believe he is the right man for the club. Hopefully we will start to see a LvG side really starting to form and take shape come the new year.
I don't call winning by a single goal a smashing. Since 2009 we have never won by more than 1 goal. However, we have been on the end of some serious beatings in the same period.
You've a strange definition of smashing a team. We won that with almost the very last kick of the game. City had 53% possession, 11 shots on target vs 3 from us and 8 corners to 2.
Agree with most of this, I would argue that the 150M has been spent well. The mistakes that have been made seem to be coming from the original squad players (Smalling and Rooney send offs, Rafael/Jones positioning vs WBA and so on). I can't think of a purchase that has not grown into their position. Since the end of the transfer window, we haven't done bad or brilliant in performances, the points total is disappointing. Then again, relative to our competitors it is more of a missed opportunity.
We should have gone 3-0 up. After that, yes, the game turned a bit. Before that moment, we were clearly dominant.
Its kind of a double edged sword. If your team is settled and you know the best players and formations its a good thing ( like Liverpool last season), but in Uniteds case it appears to be a hindrance because certain players are going to get virtually zero game time besides coming on as a sub in a game you are 3-0 up in, and theres no room to try out other players or formations because every game is a league game and vitally important. In this respect going out of the COC may have been a bigger loss than at first it seemed.
Its weird isnt it. For me the conclusion to draw is to take everything with a pinch of salt.
Conventional wisdom says a settled team is good. United's experience is perhaps that it is demotivating for certain players (both those struggling to get a game and those who feel their position is safe.)
Conventional wisdom says being able to focus on the league is an advantage - and explains Liverpool last year. United's experience this year is that it has prevented us from gaining any momentum.
I still think our light fixture schedule can be an advantage once we get going. Maybe if we'd played more games early on we'd have our players getting used to each other a bit quicker, but once they get to that point we'll see the benefits of more rest between games and less injuries. The contrast with the our competitors who are playing in the CL will also be more noticeable in the back end of the season when fatigue starts to catch up with them while our team are safely snuggled up at home playing on their PS4s (while Giggs shags their WAGs upstairs).
Conventional wisdom says a settled team is good. United's experience is perhaps that it is demotivating for certain players (both those struggling to get a game and those who feel their position is safe.)
Conventional wisdom says being able to focus on the league is an advantage - and explains Liverpool last year. United's experience this year is that it has prevented us from gaining any momentum.
I still think our light fixture schedule can be an advantage once we get going. Maybe if we'd played more games early on we'd have our players getting used to each other a bit quicker, but once they get to that point we'll see the benefits of more rest between games and less injuries. The contrast with the our competitors who are playing in the CL will also be more noticeable in the back end of the season when fatigue starts to catch up with them while our team are safely snuggled up at home playing on their PS4s (while Giggs shags their WAGs upstairs).
He'll be alright once we let him shift some more of the deadwood and actually buy him the players he needs. A couple of really good additions together with the players becoming more familiar with what he wants from them and we'll be okay. Nowhere near a title challenge, mind, but I think it might be his final year before we are there or thereabouts.
Hopefully.One things for sure, the less frequent games hasn't yet resulted in the fewer injuries we all thought would be one of the upsides!
I still take solace from his rep as a poor starter. I was prepared to gives Moyes a season and a half, I can afford Van Gaal the same. We're starting to keep the ball better, not lose so many midfield battles, which is an improvement in my book. Yup, the fire-power we have up front should be pulling the defence's bum out of the fire, but it's a work in progress. I like to think come April we'll be a stronger outfit and still in the hunt for top four.
Not really dominant. City was controling the game and we scored against the run of play. And then we did again which made City go full in attack.
Still, the decision to rule out Young's goal was stupid and I agree that if it had stand we would have had a comfortable victory. Anyway, it cannot b said that we smashed them considering that we scored on the last minute to get the win, and also City could have won the game (which might have changed the entire course of the season). It was nowhere near the smashing(s) they did to us last year, or the humiliation on 2011.
Fine, maybe not a smashing, but it was a great tactical performance, and if it were not for sudden shift in momentum that occurred after the disallowed goal, it would have been regarded as a bit of a lesson. Wasn't to be.
I'm not going to dispute the disappointing start or the below par points total, those are facts but to sensationally throw around the £150m figure is a bit disingenuous. I think everyone will agree that the purchases of Shaw, Herrera and Blind weren't us actually strengthening but those are the signings that should have been made last season if we had not fecked up two transfer windows. Then you look at Rojo in for Vidic/Ferdinand then the only strengthening we have done is Di Maria and an on loan Falcao. It's a huge figure that will be thrown around to sink Van Gaal but the fact of the matter is he did the job of three windows in half a window.
Turning to our performances it is common knowledge that you build from the back but anyone walking in from two years of international management, after half of pre-season had gone would have accepted the commonly held perception that Smalling, Evans and Jones were ready to take over, particularly Evans. No one, save for some of us who watch from a distance would have expected them to breakdown like that. That oversight and an ill fated experiment has brought us where we are. We have made the most injury inspired substitutions and short ourselves on the foot countless times, a situation Iam sure an experienced operator like him will look to remedy at the first opportunity.
The defence can not be held to account alone when you consider some of the chances we have wasted at critical junctures in some matches. Case in point I remember RVP missing from a few yards out at Leicester when it was still 3-1, score that and the game is out of sight for the home side. RVP looks done imo, Falcao is not yet fit ad may never be so maybe it's time to play Rooney as a lone striker, but who flanks him? Januzaj, Young along a Di Maria who looks half the player on the wing? If I was in LVG's shoes I would immediately go 4-5-1 with Carrick, Blind and Herrera in a midfield three, Rooney up top flanked by Di Maria and Januzaj/Young until at least I have weathered the storm because one is coming if we collect less than six points from the next three games. He talks a good game but now is the time to tighten up and collect some points the ugly way.
Let's see where we are after the Liverpool game, eh? If we go on a good run now everything will look a lot different come Xmas.
We must beat Liverpool. They're shit.
Lose to Liverpool and a lot of fans will start to properly doubt Van Gaal.
Good post.
I agree as far as our points tally goes, it is what it is and its not good enough. We need more than 13 points from 10 games. But when you look at it, the £150m spent really was playing catch up from 12 months ago. A lot of the signings, particularly IMO Shaw, Rojo, Blind, & Herrera, should have been made back in 2013. Van Gaal and Woodward did well in this window to catch up and make up for the mistakes of 2013. I believe that we should've signed another defender, but I don't think Van Gaal is to blame for that one. Woodward seems to be in control of transfers and he I think should be partially responsible for the defensive issues we've had.
I agree with what you say about injuries as well though. No one could have expected such an injury crisis. To lose Smalling, Evans and Jones, you're always going to struggle when you lose three first choice players like that. At the start of the season we had Young and Valencia playing as wing-backs, which is clearly far from ideal. It's not a great surprise that we haven't defended well when you look at it. And I don't really see how another manager would have done any better. I'm not a LVG apologist, but it wasn't his fault we didn't sign more defenders and it wasn't his fault we've had one of our worst injury crisis' in quite some time (probably the worst I can remember since 05/06). Had we have had Mourinho or whoever managing us they still would've had to field a makeshift defence.
And lastly, I think this is where managers sometimes end up copping the blame for the chairman's mistakes. We've had our two most experienced centre backs leave. More to the point, Woodward knew Vidic was leaving half way through last season, so he's had a long time to prepare for it and we only signed Rojo as a recognized centre back. We had three defenders leave and only brought in two. I don't really see how Van Gaal could've done any better with our defence considering the circumstances. I wonder if Chelsea's defence would be doing as well as it is without Terry, Cahill, and Ivanovic.
Huge concerns about him. Today Koeman made average players look good and LVG made expensive players look laboured. We did have a number of players coming back from injury but his persistence with 3-5-2 and playing players out of position is costing us big time.
Honeymoon period over LVG. It's time to start delivering this philosophy and with attractive football not the 95mins we've just had to endure again.
Honeymoon period over LVG. It's time to start delivering this philosophy and with attractive football not the 95mins we've just had to endure again.
Result aside (which at end of the day is of course all that matters), we are still just in the top four but the performances and use of substitutions are starting frustrate me. To not have a single shot on target at Old Trafford is unforgivable.
He seems to do absolutely nothing during a game to affect it. All the work can't be done on the training ground an if he can't see tht there are problems with our 'patient' build up then he's going to have problems. The tempo in our game never seems to change.
Over complicated shite. Why we need so much time to bring the ball from our half to opponents ? No injuries and still in the feckin stone age.
Using Di Maria like Robben is risky. Robben is individualist and Di Maria is a team player.
Some changes need to occur, seriously and that's only a half way to success... we simply lack world class players in some areas.
Using Di Maria like Robben is risky. Robben is individualist and Di Maria is a team player.
Some changes need to occur, seriously and that's only a half way to success... we simply lack world class players in some areas.
That's concerning.
I have to admit (and i'm a little ashamed to do so but) for the first time this season i'm started to get worried about our chances to finish inside the top 4.
IF LvG continues with this 352 crap and these performances continue i can see us start slipping down the league.
At this point i want to say i lost faith in Moyes a lot earlier and am no way a Moyes fanboi
IF LvG continues with this 352 crap and these performances continue i can see us start slipping down the league.
At this point i want to say i lost faith in Moyes a lot earlier and am no way a Moyes fanboi
Our results over Christmas was shocking as it was. Now this result..
He's in trouble. The club won't stand for anything less than 4th.
He's in trouble. The club won't stand for anything less than 4th.
That was 5 points from a potential 15 points in 5 games. 1W 3D 1L. Honestly, very disappointed that we have not build on our 7 game winning streak. For the past 3 games we have been utter tosh and just about as threatening on the attacking front as a squirrel. We were originally in a comfortable position at 3rd place, but this loss has put us back into the wilderness. Hopefully, LVG address the issues immediately, if not I cannot see us getting CL qualification again.
I lost faith in Moyes in December of last year. I still have some faith LvG can turn it around but let's not pretend he's done that much better than Moyes despite spending a small fortune to improve the squad. I don't know why some of you delude yourself into thinking he's done so well. He's just lucky that everyone else has done equally as bad as oursleves or else he'd be looking at 7th or 8th place.
There's a reason why only Spurs were sniffing over him in the summer and why before his job with the Netherlands he was plying his trade at AZ.
There's a reason why only Spurs were sniffing over him in the summer and why before his job with the Netherlands he was plying his trade at AZ.
Updated Moyes 2013/14 Vs Van Gaal 2014/15 game by game/head to head record:
Swansea home:
Moyes - 3
Van Gaal - 0
Sunderland away:
Moyes - 3
Van Gaal - 1
Burnley/Fulham away (team that finished 2nd in Championship equivalent to team that finished 2nd bottom in Prem):
Moyes - 3
Van Gaal - 1
QPR/Cardiff home (team that got promoted via the play-offs equivalent to team that finished bottom in Prem):
Moyes - 3
Van Gaal - 3
Leicester/Norwich away(team that finished 1st in Championship equivalent to team that finished 3rd bottom in Prem):
Moyes - 3
Van Gaal - 0
West Ham home:
Moyes - 3
Van Gaal - 3
Everton home:
Moyes - 0
Van Gaal - 3
West Brom away:
Moyes - 3
Van Gaal - 1
Chelsea home:
Moyes - 1
Van Gaal - 1
Man City away:
Moyes - 0
Van Gaal - 0
Crystal Palace home:
Moyes - 3
Van Gaal - 3
Arsenal away:
Moyes - 1
Van Gaal - 3
Hull Home:
N/A, as Moyes had been sacked by this point.
Stoke home:
Moyes - 3
Van Gaal - 3
Southampton away:
N/A, as Moyes had been sacked by this point.
Liverpool home:
Moyes - 0
Van Gaal - 3
Villa away:
Moyes - 3
Van Gaal - 1
Newcastle home:
Moyes - 0
Van Gaal - 3
Tottenham away:
Moyes - 1
Van Gaal - 1
Stoke away:
Moyes - 0
Van Gaal - 1
Southampton home:
Moyes - 1
Van Gaal - 0
Final score:
Moyes - 34
Van Gaal - 31
Huge disclaimer:
Still have faith in LvG to get things right, still think Moyes can have no complaints about his sacking, and in mitigation for LvG we've had horrific injuries all season.
But is this £150m worth of improvement?
Swansea home:
Moyes - 3
Van Gaal - 0
Sunderland away:
Moyes - 3
Van Gaal - 1
Burnley/Fulham away (team that finished 2nd in Championship equivalent to team that finished 2nd bottom in Prem):
Moyes - 3
Van Gaal - 1
QPR/Cardiff home (team that got promoted via the play-offs equivalent to team that finished bottom in Prem):
Moyes - 3
Van Gaal - 3
Leicester/Norwich away(team that finished 1st in Championship equivalent to team that finished 3rd bottom in Prem):
Moyes - 3
Van Gaal - 0
West Ham home:
Moyes - 3
Van Gaal - 3
Everton home:
Moyes - 0
Van Gaal - 3
West Brom away:
Moyes - 3
Van Gaal - 1
Chelsea home:
Moyes - 1
Van Gaal - 1
Man City away:
Moyes - 0
Van Gaal - 0
Crystal Palace home:
Moyes - 3
Van Gaal - 3
Arsenal away:
Moyes - 1
Van Gaal - 3
Hull Home:
N/A, as Moyes had been sacked by this point.
Stoke home:
Moyes - 3
Van Gaal - 3
Southampton away:
N/A, as Moyes had been sacked by this point.
Liverpool home:
Moyes - 0
Van Gaal - 3
Villa away:
Moyes - 3
Van Gaal - 1
Newcastle home:
Moyes - 0
Van Gaal - 3
Tottenham away:
Moyes - 1
Van Gaal - 1
Stoke away:
Moyes - 0
Van Gaal - 1
Southampton home:
Moyes - 1
Van Gaal - 0
Final score:
Moyes - 34
Van Gaal - 31
Huge disclaimer:
Still have faith in LvG to get things right, still think Moyes can have no complaints about his sacking, and in mitigation for LvG we've had horrific injuries all season.
But is this £150m worth of improvement?
Pathetic!
A United manager bringing on fecking Fellaini to replace Di Maria in a game we are chasing to play a brand of football that even West Ham have abondoned. Unfeckingbelievable.
As many points as last season with 1 less win and 1 less goal and with 150m of talent. The most expensively assembled and the highest paid staff in PL history plays one the most pathetic brands of football. I am in shock.
Can we please get Fergie back to steady the ship till the season end and then go from there? This overthinking *********** is a bullshit peddler and nothing more.
A United manager bringing on fecking Fellaini to replace Di Maria in a game we are chasing to play a brand of football that even West Ham have abondoned. Unfeckingbelievable.
As many points as last season with 1 less win and 1 less goal and with 150m of talent. The most expensively assembled and the highest paid staff in PL history plays one the most pathetic brands of football. I am in shock.
Can we please get Fergie back to steady the ship till the season end and then go from there? This overthinking *********** is a bullshit peddler and nothing more.
Or the changes have a negative effect. Today, brings on Blackett and moments later, we concede. The defense is still not settled or consistent at all.
Not going to get top 4 with 3-5-2/5-3-2 and passing it around at the back. Simple.
Wow, that's pretty surprising. And depressing.
First time he's had 2 games a week all season and the team look tired and are drawing games.
If you're in the Champions League next season you could well be playing an extra dozen midweek games.
If you're in the Champions League next season you could well be playing an extra dozen midweek games.
Wow. Now can someone explain to me why fans were baying for Moyes this time last season, whereas Louie has been given more slack?
I have been hugely supportive of van Gaal and gave him the benefit of the doubt, thinking this 5-3-2 (it's not a 3-5-2) was a necessary thing because of our injuries, but this woeful performance has made me more angry than I've ever been after a United game. Because now we have everyone back, ok let's start it off with 5-3-2 but when it clearly isn't working and you're drawing at home with no actual goal attempts midway through second half, surely you have enough sense to make changes. But no, he brings on deer in headlights defender Blackett and we're back to an even less adventurous 5-3-2 if it's even possible.
Every substitution is negative, every instinct from a receiving player is negative, everyone has the thought of picking the safest pass, not the pass that could possibly help the team. Moyes' dinosaur ways we're awful but this is actually worse, because now we have bought some actual talent.
It seems this philosophy, sees shooting as one way of surrendering possession and therefor we shouldn't shoot. This philosophy, sees the captain as untouchable even though he is mostly shit. The captain can't be subbed, that is just plain bologna.
With the money spent on this team, these performances are absolutely dour and devoid of any sense that this game is seen as entertainment. For me the penny has dropped, he has to be called out for these decisions, most of them have been poor.
Every substitution is negative, every instinct from a receiving player is negative, everyone has the thought of picking the safest pass, not the pass that could possibly help the team. Moyes' dinosaur ways we're awful but this is actually worse, because now we have bought some actual talent.
It seems this philosophy, sees shooting as one way of surrendering possession and therefor we shouldn't shoot. This philosophy, sees the captain as untouchable even though he is mostly shit. The captain can't be subbed, that is just plain bologna.
With the money spent on this team, these performances are absolutely dour and devoid of any sense that this game is seen as entertainment. For me the penny has dropped, he has to be called out for these decisions, most of them have been poor.
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