Badly needs a win vs QPR. Would like to see Andy Tate's reaction if we don't. Well I guess this place will be reaching critical mass as well.
United under LvG: verdict so far!
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http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/sport/columnists/article4326004.ece
Oliver Kay's column in today's Times.
“Oh how fine are the emperor’s new clothes. Don’t they fit him to perfection?” “But he hasn’t got anything on,” a little child said. In truth, The Emperor’s New Clothes is probably a dangerous place to start for a column that aims to make some more subtle observations about Louis van Gaal’s first six months in charge of Manchester United. The risk is that it will be interpreted as trying to deride — or denude — the United manager when the point is more about how a powerful aura, and the awe it inspires, can blind us to the obvious.
English football — players, fans, directors and certainly the media — has long been in thrall to the cult of personality where managers are concerned. In a country where so much of the game’s discourse is personality-driven, where first impressions are surpassed only by preconceptions, a manager who arrives with a reputation as a winner, such as Van Gaal or Fabio Capello, will be delighted to discover that the aura takes him a long way before people begin to question what lies beneath.
Never underestimate the value of an aura in a sport where attention spans in dressing rooms are notoriously short. In any case, Van Gaal’s reputation has not arrived by accident. It is the product of being one of the outstanding coaches in world football for the past two decades and, to judge from the noises from the United boardroom towards the end of last season, the power of his reputation was the biggest single factor behind Van Gaal’s appointment after the dismal nine-month tenure of David Moyes.
What nags, though, is the feeling that, once you look beyond the Van Gaal aura, there has been remarkably little to admire in his first six months at Old Trafford. As a journalist, you find yourself wanting Van Gaal to live up to a certain reputation — a reputation for tactical brilliance, exciting football and even, a strange admission this, antagonistic behaviour in press conferences. So far, we have seen more of the third than the first two and even that, in truth, has been fairly low-grade.
What are we supposed to be seeing from Van Gaal’s United? Better football? Better results? The bar was set exceedingly low after Moyes, but United, after the second highest summer spending spree in football history, have as many — or as few — points after 21 Barclays Premier League games as they did a year ago under a manager who, by then, was correctly perceived to be out of his depth.
To offer that points comparison on Twitter last Sunday, after the 1-0 home defeat by Southampton, was to be informed that Van Gaal must have effected an improvement because they are now fourth in the Premier League (with 37 points) rather than seventh — to which the obvious response is that this has more to do with regression from Arsenal, Everton and Liverpool than any great progression on United’s part. The other Twitter response was that United are now playing “far superior football” under Van Gaal, at which point, after hours of analysing minimal differences (more accurate passing, but more long balls and fewer successful passes in the final third) between this season and last, we are back to Hans Christian Andersen’s fairytale and a human instinct to see what we want to see.
The narrative is all about a new “philosophy”, but look beyond the Van Gaal aura and there is remarkably little sign of the type of cultural revolution that he has espoused. Indeed, there was precious little evidence of a football philosophy in their summer transfer activity, in which only Marcos Rojo and Daley Blind, for better or worse, stuck out as true Van Gaal acquisitions and the remainder — Luke Shaw, Ander Herrera, Ángel Di María and Radamel Falcao — seemed to reflect the board’s desperation to make some kind of big-name signing that they hoped would delight their new manager as much as it would their beloved commercial partners and less-beloved supporters.
Perhaps that is what happens when you have a manager starting work in mid-July, having spent the previous weeks preoccupied by leading his country to the World Cup semi-finals. Remember in the weeks before and after Moyes’s sacking last April, when the word from on high at Old Trafford was that the mistake had been to sit patiently while the former Everton manager prepared to start work on July 1?
Well, Van Gaal did not start work until July 16. He was left to make snap-judgments based on the team’s pre-season form, which, particularly when it came to his preference for a three-man central defence, was deceptively good.
In the majority of cases, those managers who opt to play three central defenders do so for negative reasons, because of a lack of faith either in the quality of those defenders or a shortage of convincing options in wide areas. That certainly seemed to be the case with Van Gaal both with Holland at the World Cup finals and with United last summer, although he also cited a 3-4-1-2 formation as the best way, indeed perhaps the only way, to accommodate Herrera, Juan Mata, Wayne Rooney and Robin van Persie in the same team — and this before the additions of Di María and Falcao. The strange thing is that, for all his stated disinterest in “star” status, Van Gaal’s selections have reflected a desperation to find room for as many of those six big-name players as possible.
Another Premier League manager suggested privately last summer that it would be very hard to accommodate more than two of Herrera, Rooney, Mata and Van Persie in a starting XI without making unacceptable compromises elsewhere. To add Di María, a winger who prefers a central role, and Falcao only made that equation more mind-boggling. As for the hysterical reaction in some quarters to Falcao’s omission against Southampton last weekend, given his obvious lack of fitness and form, that only strengthens the point about English obsession with profile, status and aura.
The Falcao issue, though, is a sideshow. Imagine, for a second, that Moyes or, say, Roberto Martínez or Mauricio Pochettino had inherited a United squad without a convincing central defender and had decided to invest so much faith in 3-5-2 and variations thereon. Imagine that, with that surfeit of central midfielders and central forwards, he had ended up playing an incompatible-looking strike pairing of Van Persie and Falcao while dropping Rooney ever deeper into central midfield. Imagine that he had stifled Di María’s initial impact by playing him in a variety of less suitable roles. Imagine that he had been so reliant on David De Gea, whose performances in goal this season, behind an unconvincing defence, have so often been the difference between defeat and victory. Imagine that, for all the “philosophy” talk, much of United’s most effective football had come while referring to a more direct Plan B — or C or D or E — that involved seeking out high balls to Marouane Fellaini in an advanced role.
That, amusingly perhaps, is precisely the type of football that Moyes was frightened to play at Old Trafford. He was terrified of thrusting Fellaini forward and looking for knock-downs. Van Gaal has no such qualms. For all the talk of philosophy, he is a pragmatist and, crucially, unlike Moyes, the type of pragmatist who has faith in his convictions rather than fretting about how a tactic or selection would be perceived.
That was Moyes’s biggest failing at United — a tendency to suppress his instincts in an unsuccessful attempt to be the manager that he was expected to be, thus diluting the qualities — single-mindedness not least among them — that had landed him the job. Van Gaal, by contrast, can produce similarly underwhelming performances and results with a stronger squad and retain the faith of media, supporters and, most importantly, players alike.
That is the difference an aura makes and it is not to be underestimated. Emperor’s new clothes? No, not quite, but there remains an element of wishful thinking about this idea that United this season have been more than merely flattered by the dowdiness of their rivals.
Oliver Kay's column in today's Times.
“Oh how fine are the emperor’s new clothes. Don’t they fit him to perfection?” “But he hasn’t got anything on,” a little child said. In truth, The Emperor’s New Clothes is probably a dangerous place to start for a column that aims to make some more subtle observations about Louis van Gaal’s first six months in charge of Manchester United. The risk is that it will be interpreted as trying to deride — or denude — the United manager when the point is more about how a powerful aura, and the awe it inspires, can blind us to the obvious.
English football — players, fans, directors and certainly the media — has long been in thrall to the cult of personality where managers are concerned. In a country where so much of the game’s discourse is personality-driven, where first impressions are surpassed only by preconceptions, a manager who arrives with a reputation as a winner, such as Van Gaal or Fabio Capello, will be delighted to discover that the aura takes him a long way before people begin to question what lies beneath.
Never underestimate the value of an aura in a sport where attention spans in dressing rooms are notoriously short. In any case, Van Gaal’s reputation has not arrived by accident. It is the product of being one of the outstanding coaches in world football for the past two decades and, to judge from the noises from the United boardroom towards the end of last season, the power of his reputation was the biggest single factor behind Van Gaal’s appointment after the dismal nine-month tenure of David Moyes.
What nags, though, is the feeling that, once you look beyond the Van Gaal aura, there has been remarkably little to admire in his first six months at Old Trafford. As a journalist, you find yourself wanting Van Gaal to live up to a certain reputation — a reputation for tactical brilliance, exciting football and even, a strange admission this, antagonistic behaviour in press conferences. So far, we have seen more of the third than the first two and even that, in truth, has been fairly low-grade.
What are we supposed to be seeing from Van Gaal’s United? Better football? Better results? The bar was set exceedingly low after Moyes, but United, after the second highest summer spending spree in football history, have as many — or as few — points after 21 Barclays Premier League games as they did a year ago under a manager who, by then, was correctly perceived to be out of his depth.
To offer that points comparison on Twitter last Sunday, after the 1-0 home defeat by Southampton, was to be informed that Van Gaal must have effected an improvement because they are now fourth in the Premier League (with 37 points) rather than seventh — to which the obvious response is that this has more to do with regression from Arsenal, Everton and Liverpool than any great progression on United’s part. The other Twitter response was that United are now playing “far superior football” under Van Gaal, at which point, after hours of analysing minimal differences (more accurate passing, but more long balls and fewer successful passes in the final third) between this season and last, we are back to Hans Christian Andersen’s fairytale and a human instinct to see what we want to see.
The narrative is all about a new “philosophy”, but look beyond the Van Gaal aura and there is remarkably little sign of the type of cultural revolution that he has espoused. Indeed, there was precious little evidence of a football philosophy in their summer transfer activity, in which only Marcos Rojo and Daley Blind, for better or worse, stuck out as true Van Gaal acquisitions and the remainder — Luke Shaw, Ander Herrera, Ángel Di María and Radamel Falcao — seemed to reflect the board’s desperation to make some kind of big-name signing that they hoped would delight their new manager as much as it would their beloved commercial partners and less-beloved supporters.
Perhaps that is what happens when you have a manager starting work in mid-July, having spent the previous weeks preoccupied by leading his country to the World Cup semi-finals. Remember in the weeks before and after Moyes’s sacking last April, when the word from on high at Old Trafford was that the mistake had been to sit patiently while the former Everton manager prepared to start work on July 1?
Well, Van Gaal did not start work until July 16. He was left to make snap-judgments based on the team’s pre-season form, which, particularly when it came to his preference for a three-man central defence, was deceptively good.
In the majority of cases, those managers who opt to play three central defenders do so for negative reasons, because of a lack of faith either in the quality of those defenders or a shortage of convincing options in wide areas. That certainly seemed to be the case with Van Gaal both with Holland at the World Cup finals and with United last summer, although he also cited a 3-4-1-2 formation as the best way, indeed perhaps the only way, to accommodate Herrera, Juan Mata, Wayne Rooney and Robin van Persie in the same team — and this before the additions of Di María and Falcao. The strange thing is that, for all his stated disinterest in “star” status, Van Gaal’s selections have reflected a desperation to find room for as many of those six big-name players as possible.
Another Premier League manager suggested privately last summer that it would be very hard to accommodate more than two of Herrera, Rooney, Mata and Van Persie in a starting XI without making unacceptable compromises elsewhere. To add Di María, a winger who prefers a central role, and Falcao only made that equation more mind-boggling. As for the hysterical reaction in some quarters to Falcao’s omission against Southampton last weekend, given his obvious lack of fitness and form, that only strengthens the point about English obsession with profile, status and aura.
The Falcao issue, though, is a sideshow. Imagine, for a second, that Moyes or, say, Roberto Martínez or Mauricio Pochettino had inherited a United squad without a convincing central defender and had decided to invest so much faith in 3-5-2 and variations thereon. Imagine that, with that surfeit of central midfielders and central forwards, he had ended up playing an incompatible-looking strike pairing of Van Persie and Falcao while dropping Rooney ever deeper into central midfield. Imagine that he had stifled Di María’s initial impact by playing him in a variety of less suitable roles. Imagine that he had been so reliant on David De Gea, whose performances in goal this season, behind an unconvincing defence, have so often been the difference between defeat and victory. Imagine that, for all the “philosophy” talk, much of United’s most effective football had come while referring to a more direct Plan B — or C or D or E — that involved seeking out high balls to Marouane Fellaini in an advanced role.
That, amusingly perhaps, is precisely the type of football that Moyes was frightened to play at Old Trafford. He was terrified of thrusting Fellaini forward and looking for knock-downs. Van Gaal has no such qualms. For all the talk of philosophy, he is a pragmatist and, crucially, unlike Moyes, the type of pragmatist who has faith in his convictions rather than fretting about how a tactic or selection would be perceived.
That was Moyes’s biggest failing at United — a tendency to suppress his instincts in an unsuccessful attempt to be the manager that he was expected to be, thus diluting the qualities — single-mindedness not least among them — that had landed him the job. Van Gaal, by contrast, can produce similarly underwhelming performances and results with a stronger squad and retain the faith of media, supporters and, most importantly, players alike.
That is the difference an aura makes and it is not to be underestimated. Emperor’s new clothes? No, not quite, but there remains an element of wishful thinking about this idea that United this season have been more than merely flattered by the dowdiness of their rivals.
Great piece. I really think LVG underestimated the task in hand, both the lack of quality players in the team and the competitiveness of the league. He needs to realise that the training ground isn't going to improve some of those players. They don't have the capacity to change. I'm sorry, there's 50% of the starting 11, that's not good enough. There's also real questions on not only the existing players but equally the relative new signings.
"Another Premier League manager suggested privately last summer that it would be very hard to accommodate more than two of Herrera, Rooney, Mata and Van Persie in a starting XI without making unacceptable compromises elsewhere."
i concur.
none of them are wide player, nor carrying any features like keano or fletch can provide. this is especially true when herrera refuses to commit in a midfielder role.
i concur.
none of them are wide player, nor carrying any features like keano or fletch can provide. this is especially true when herrera refuses to commit in a midfielder role.
Still think the worst thing he's done since taking charge (and there's probably a longer list at this point than even Moyes had), is make United really fecking boring.
I genuinely have no interest in watching our games from an entertainment point of view. I watch them because I feel like I have to. If I didn't watch them with friends I probably just wouldn't bother half the time by this point.I'd be happy to catch the "highlights" on MOTD.
I hated the idea of us getting Mourinho because I feared his insufferable need to talk crap and draw attention to himself would overshadow anything we did on the pitch. Instead we've got someone with exactly the same problem except there isn't anything happening on the pitch worth overshadowing anyway...and in anycase even what happens on the pitch, as it's happening, has to be all about him. He'll stifle any entertainment value and even the effectivenes of his team/players just to try and prove to everyone how clever he is.
I find him extremely dislikable. People seem to cling to the idea that he's entertaining to listen to as some justification for the dullness that occurs on the pitch, but first of all, it isn't. Secondly, since when has listening to someone endlessly talk bollocks been anything other than extremely annoying?
I genuinely have no interest in watching our games from an entertainment point of view. I watch them because I feel like I have to. If I didn't watch them with friends I probably just wouldn't bother half the time by this point.I'd be happy to catch the "highlights" on MOTD.
I hated the idea of us getting Mourinho because I feared his insufferable need to talk crap and draw attention to himself would overshadow anything we did on the pitch. Instead we've got someone with exactly the same problem except there isn't anything happening on the pitch worth overshadowing anyway...and in anycase even what happens on the pitch, as it's happening, has to be all about him. He'll stifle any entertainment value and even the effectivenes of his team/players just to try and prove to everyone how clever he is.
I find him extremely dislikable. People seem to cling to the idea that he's entertaining to listen to as some justification for the dullness that occurs on the pitch, but first of all, it isn't. Secondly, since when has listening to someone endlessly talk bollocks been anything other than extremely annoying?
I like his nose, it's so flat it's almost inside out.
I began losing faith in him when he fielded 5 defenders against Yeovil Town. Unacceptable.
I'm done.
Why not wait until the match is played before moaning ?
I hate this formation. Even the most successful team using it is looking to move away from it and we are actively trying to shoehorn or players into it. Ridiculous.
Lots of over reactions. We haven't even played the bloody game yet!
He can be infuriating though. You won't catch many other managers over complicating things as much as he does. I'm pretty sure about 90% of our players don't even have a natural position anymore.
He can be infuriating though. You won't catch many other managers over complicating things as much as he does. I'm pretty sure about 90% of our players don't even have a natural position anymore.
If we lose to QPR, it will be carnage in here like a bad day in Belgrade.
Every glory hunter the world over will be calling for LvG's head to roll, there'll be fanfares of outrage, calls for Juergen 'Brendan II' Klopp to take charge, and a million posts on the matchday thread that simply say:
"We're shit".
Was going to post this in the match day thread but can't as I'm banned from there (not sure why, half the posts in there are infinitely worse than what I said post Southampton 
)
Anyway - I can't believe how much the tide has turned against LVG and our fans. A lot of posters now seem against his appointment!!
Never in my wildest dreams did I think this would happen with LVG and when we spent 150 million.
Not sure how to take this but surely this can't be good news. I fear a long season looming!
)Anyway - I can't believe how much the tide has turned against LVG and our fans. A lot of posters now seem against his appointment!!
Never in my wildest dreams did I think this would happen with LVG and when we spent 150 million.
Not sure how to take this but surely this can't be good news. I fear a long season looming!
Lookin' on my laptop and not a comma in sight ... and everythin' is alright.
Not panicking, but what happens if players turn against him? Surely it's easy to understand them.
He's done many good things since he came to Man Utd, in terms of restoring morale, giving the club a sense of direction and purpose, and so on. However, I am baffled by his decision to revert to 3-5-2. After seeing it fail early in the season Van Gaal was big enough to ditch it and go with the diamond, which led to our most exciting football of the season. All the performances he cites as being our most dominant e.g. Hull (H), QPR (H), came playing the diamond. Yet, he seems to have developed an allergy to it. Is it stubbornness? Is it genuine belief? I'm not losing faith but my confidence in Van Gaal is turning into confusion.
He's improved morale - but which new manager doesn't? If the new guy is (as is usually the case) replacing an underachiever then morale will improve. I don't even think he deserves credit for that.
Sense of direction? How exactly? I'm not seeing direction on the pitch.
Purpose? Again, how? Maybe in a symbolic way - as in "Okay fans, we've got in a big name"
Maybe I'm just not understanding what you mean by those terms.
His stubbornness will be his downfall. Can't see him lasting three years here, to be honest.
He'll be sacked this summer if he doesn't get us in the top 4. Absolute no chance any manager would get a free pass after spending £100m+.
Without the doubt, and if i am being honest i too am starting to lose a bit of faith in him. At first i thought hes the type of guy that would bow to his own ego if things arent working but if that was the case we would have abandoned this 352 rubbish ages ago.
It worked in the WC but the PL is different
Have to be honest LVG is starting to look like someone who doesn't know what he is doing or is too stubborn to abandon what isn't working.
Getting a bit fed up with him and his stubbornness. Signing Di Maria and then playing him up front is fecking ridiculous.
I slightly hate him
How can people still say the football under Van Gaal is better than under Moyes
Awful football....i'm so pissed off
Awful football....i'm so pissed off
What clever manager in their right mind doesn't switch things around when they aren't working. The stubbornness is becoming boring predictable and Moyes esq.
If we don't adjust our tactics sooner or later we'll drop away from fourth.
If we don't adjust our tactics sooner or later we'll drop away from fourth.
shocking so far.
JUST SWAP ROONEY FOR DI MARIA!!!!!
We're going to ruin rooney like we ruined alan smith by playing him in midfield!!!
JUST SWAP ROONEY FOR DI MARIA!!!!!
We're going to ruin rooney like we ruined alan smith by playing him in midfield!!!
Who would we replace him with?
I've lost patience now. He's an experienced coach and there's no excuses for his shit tactics. Di Maria isn't a striker. Rooney is more effective up front and we're infinitely better when we're not playing 3-5-2. Stubborn tit.
Rooney will be fine. More likely to ruin Di Maria by playing him upfront.
I'm more lenient towards LGV because of what he has achieved in the game but in recent weeks I'm getting frustrated with he's constant drap football and playing players out of position.
Guardiola or Ancelloti.
we should go all out for mourinho, don't care how much it costs to get that twat here - HE IS WHAT HE NEED!!!!
LvG knows what he's doing, patience and all will be fine.
We look more clueless than we did at any point under Moyes...
He's lost me. Rooney in midfield and Di Maria up front again is the final straw. I've got zero confidence left in this man's intelligence. Laughable.
I gave him chance but I'm doubting that we're improving under LVG. He's just too stubborn with a tactic that has not worked time and time again and that could cost us top 4.
All he has to do is swap Rooney and Di Maria around but he's a stubborn and won't last long if he doesn't change his ways.
All optimism has gone. He's lost it. 3-5-2 isn't working. Valencia at Right Back isn't working, Rooney in midfield isn't working, Di Maria as a striker isn't working.
No decisions he's made recently have made any sense.
I don't understand why he can't see it's not working, at all. tumescent football, no chances, players in the wrong position and we're making QPR look like a good, solid team.
We're not going to get fourth playing like this.
I don't understand why he can't see it's not working, at all. tumescent football, no chances, players in the wrong position and we're making QPR look like a good, solid team.
We're not going to get fourth playing like this.
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