Its not stupid question at all. Not surprised that you would take rather first option.Yea money is what we lack and i can see reaction here regarding our 30 mil + star players this season.
United under LvG: verdict so far!
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Its not stupid question at all. Not surprised that you would take rather first option.Yea money is what we lack and i can see reaction here regarding our 30 mil + star players this season.
What is the point of this? He wanted to retire, he's not coming back as manager. The hugeness of him going, and David Gill, the back room staff being ripped out by Moyes, and a lot of senior players hitting the end of the road has made this a massive job for anyone. LVG doesn't just become shit overnight, the difference for us fans is that LVG is a scholar and practitioner of a football school (possession at all costs) that served well at Ajax, and Barcelona, yet this is totally not the United way. Either LVG has to change the philosophy, or our players have to adopt to LVG's philosophy, and us fans accept it.
Getting rid of LVG at this juncture I don't believe is pragmatic, but at least let's not try and dream of Sir Alex it's not the solution now.
Didn't he put himself on a pedestal above Sir Alex earlier in the season saying he cared about performances as well as results??
I appreciate a positive spin amongst the gloom but this train of thought that we're playing awful football because its what the manager thinks will get us top 4 doesn't seem likely. Its much more likely he's just failing but again he's living of the "genius" hype
It was simple question. What players will want come to us? Well i believe we can still attract good players without it,also some here are envy how Liverpool play today and they werent in CL every year either,so having some luck wont hurt,you never know how some players will turn up at the end.
This is spot on. Gradually plan B has become plan A and nothing else. The philosophy and the science were not created from solid results or experience. We look more like a failing experiment without any purpose.
Alot of the complaints here are actually part of van Gaal's tactics. Risk averse and only 4 players (Di Maria, Young, Rooney, Fellaini) can take risks. The rest all follow orders and must keep possesion at all costs. Herrera can't be pinging balls left and right, because he's playing as a box-to-box midfielder. van Gaal wants his midfielders (with the exception of the number 10 - in this case Fellaini) to never lose the ball.
The first half against Arsenal might've been enjoyable, but there were countless moments which could've been deadly because van Gaal's teams aren't prepared to defend when Herrera is on the ball. If he (or any other than the 4 I mentioned) loses the ball, everyone is in the wrong position and we're extremely vulnerable for counters. That's why he changed it, not to annoy the fans but because if we carried on like that we were more likely to lose. He looks at the game differently: he looks from his gameplan POV. When his gameplan is performed well we'll see attacking football and not the slow dross we've seen mostly. All players must be on exact the same wavelength else van Gaal's tactics are suicide, especially in case of the other 7 players.
You can criticise him for his tactics, but the players are just trying to execute orders. If they don't, they're subbed off at halftime. Van Gaal will also never change his ways, he was hired for his playstyle and he's busy trying to implement it.
I think he should've done better personally and I'm a big fan of him. He bought players for a 352 formation because it worked in preseason. When 352 didn't work in the PL he had to change it and this left him with problems. With his own rules it's very difficult to then name a formation he's happy with. The sort of 433 we're seeing now isn't what he likes. Herrera next to Blind is something we'll never see next season because he wants a defensive BTB player at Herrera's spot (unless he improves massively). He's now stuck with an incredibly top-heavy squad, weak backline and no depth in defensive minded midfielders. This means he has to make offensive offers (Fellaini at #10) to cover for the defence. He's had to try Rooney, Fellaini and now Herrera in his box-to-box role because he wants a defensive player there (those are his own rules). That mistake at the start of the season, combined with his own rules made him chop-and-change so much in the starting 11. I can understand he couldn't buy all the players he wanted/needed but that mistake of buying for 352 has cost us alot this season.
I'm still fully behind the man, I'm optimistic we'll make top 4 and with some key transfers: winger, box-to-box midfielder and a centreback (mainly) we'll see drastic improvements. This is because he then doesn't have to make offensive sacrifices for our backline anymore. He can then play 433 and take the handbrake off.
The first half against Arsenal might've been enjoyable, but there were countless moments which could've been deadly because van Gaal's teams aren't prepared to defend when Herrera is on the ball. If he (or any other than the 4 I mentioned) loses the ball, everyone is in the wrong position and we're extremely vulnerable for counters. That's why he changed it, not to annoy the fans but because if we carried on like that we were more likely to lose. He looks at the game differently: he looks from his gameplan POV. When his gameplan is performed well we'll see attacking football and not the slow dross we've seen mostly. All players must be on exact the same wavelength else van Gaal's tactics are suicide, especially in case of the other 7 players.
You can criticise him for his tactics, but the players are just trying to execute orders. If they don't, they're subbed off at halftime. Van Gaal will also never change his ways, he was hired for his playstyle and he's busy trying to implement it.
I think he should've done better personally and I'm a big fan of him. He bought players for a 352 formation because it worked in preseason. When 352 didn't work in the PL he had to change it and this left him with problems. With his own rules it's very difficult to then name a formation he's happy with. The sort of 433 we're seeing now isn't what he likes. Herrera next to Blind is something we'll never see next season because he wants a defensive BTB player at Herrera's spot (unless he improves massively). He's now stuck with an incredibly top-heavy squad, weak backline and no depth in defensive minded midfielders. This means he has to make offensive offers (Fellaini at #10) to cover for the defence. He's had to try Rooney, Fellaini and now Herrera in his box-to-box role because he wants a defensive player there (those are his own rules). That mistake at the start of the season, combined with his own rules made him chop-and-change so much in the starting 11. I can understand he couldn't buy all the players he wanted/needed but that mistake of buying for 352 has cost us alot this season.
I'm still fully behind the man, I'm optimistic we'll make top 4 and with some key transfers: winger, box-to-box midfielder and a centreback (mainly) we'll see drastic improvements. This is because he then doesn't have to make offensive sacrifices for our backline anymore. He can then play 433 and take the handbrake off.
Not sure why though. Its a good debate.
Nah, next season is going to be our season. In the summer LVG will get his own players in and then the "Philsophy" will magically work, I dunno how but it will.
Joking aside, if we spend another £150million in the summer and end the 2015/16 season in 4th place, I bet LVG will try to claim it's some sort of achievement, And the sad thing is, a lot of fans will happily go along with it and that's my main worry with giving LVG another season. At this moment giving LVG another year is more riskier than getting someone like Anceletti in. A lot of people will disagree but nothing and I mean nothing about this season has impressed me to think we will turn into an all conquering machine in the summer.
Last year default argument against Moyes was him inheriting a league winning team, and still managed to mess up. We hardly hear the same argument against LvG. Despite having some of the same players plus more shiny new signings.
I am so with you! Get on with it and let players play to their best, instead of teaching them how to play. It's unnatural as well as ineffective. Talking about worst of both worlds
Fair point, it could easily be hes failing badly, yet for the fact Ive seen with my own eyes his Ajax side play often enough, watched near 3 seasons worth of Barca under him, Im inclined to believe he is capeable of playing attacking football, because.. well basically, ive bloody well seen it,
With Moyes for example, watching his 10 years at Everton, Positives you could give to his style was, Gritty. Disciplined. Tough etc, I never saw any type of attractive football that he was asked to play at United,
I was far less optimistic of Moyes managing attacking football in the future, than LvG becuase theres evidence from his sides before, he's trying to get results right now, if he has a summer, buys the players he thinks will improve our football and then still plays equally shite football next year, then yea.. get rid.
It was just a fanciful question and one to lighten the mood a little.
A little bit of me thinks that Fergie won't be able settle into retirement until we bounce back from Moyes. Although he will probably never admit it, he must feel a tad responsible for that decision.
Will it happen? Of course not. But IF he was asked the question I'm pretty sure he would be tempted...get us back into the top 4, hand over to Giggs, make the movie. Done.
I think it is empty talk we can still attract good players without CL. Players are human and ambitious players want more and higher profile games. I don't know about you, but if you have ever played sports at whatever levels, the opportunity to play at the higher level (lets agree for now CL is another level) is always one of the considerations. You have to be very naive to think otherwise
I do fancy that. Two years to give Giggsy opportunity to take over, and when he leaves, Giggsy settles in seamlessly and quietly.
A very fair comment and its true
I dont disagree with you about CL lure,just saying that there is chance that you could attract players (good ones) without it.They are not all the same,they have ambition to play at highest level and win trophies, i agree but there are different ways how to achieve that.
Here to stay at least through next season, no matter what, says Ogden.
I hate headline like this. No one is un-sackable. The only concern is we have no alternatives. Hope LvG understands he must achieve something before end of season. Last night was a huge disappointment. He has to improve.
Also just want to add on the subject of him failing to implement attacking football vs his realism of a RESULTS BASED BUSINESS > the style of football wanted, you only need look at his World Cup team, he took over the worst Dutch squad I can recall in living memory, where the likes of Vlaar stood as his best defender.
He decided to go out and play a cautious 352 as he didnt have the star studded squad they had previously, he was taking flack from Cruyff and countless others for abandoning attacking football for results, but he knew what he had to do, in order to get the best results.
If he'd gone out and tried to play Rinus Michels esq football with his squad of dross he'd get spanked and go out in the group stages like many predicted for that squad, instead managed to get the same lot within a whisker of the WC final.
edit, spelling mistakes.
He decided to go out and play a cautious 352 as he didnt have the star studded squad they had previously, he was taking flack from Cruyff and countless others for abandoning attacking football for results, but he knew what he had to do, in order to get the best results.
If he'd gone out and tried to play Rinus Michels esq football with his squad of dross he'd get spanked and go out in the group stages like many predicted for that squad, instead managed to get the same lot within a whisker of the WC final.
edit, spelling mistakes.
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Thats it. The rest of your post isn't of any interest sorry!
Ok,carry on.Simply won't happen, he's not qualified, surely the experience of this season and last tells us we need and incredibly talented and experienced manager. The fact we are floated on the stock exchange means it will not happen as too bigger risk for investors.
He wont be if the dippers giving us a trashing.
He got lucky in the World Cup, the great Spanish team finally met its end. Holland beating them 5-1 was a pure freak and gave them a solid platform. In their following game, they only beat Australia 3-2. Yes, they conceded 2 against Australia. Then in the knockout stage, a lovely 0-0 against Costa Rica, needing a shootout to go through. Then another 0-0 against Argentina when their luck finally ran out in the penalty shootout.
Robben quite literally put that team on his back and carried them to 3rd place.
You'd think he was managing America Samoa or Ireland the way people talk about that Dutch squad. People talking as if a squad with the likes of Huntelaar and Depay sat on the bench can be that bad. They were obviously magnificent against a poor Spain side, a game Van Gaal had clearly been specifically focussing on for weeks and had prepared for exceptionally well, but it was the slow, stale football straight from the 90s that we've seen that meant they were very fortunate to get past Mexico and Costa Rica.
He probably needs another summer, if anything because changing managers so often isn't necessarily helpful and there's a paucity of quality options, but the reality is we're outsiders to make the top 4 given our form and our run-in and the football this season has been tumescent. His decisions have been routinely bizarre, the transfers haven't worked out well at all and his main success has been improving the players who aren't good enough (although Fellaini's gone shit again since he moved him further forward).
We'd be mad to sack him imo, even if we finish 5th.
They were lucky and absolutely awful to watch during the WC.
I know, Im not blind to seeing it.
LvG still achieved the best final outcome with what he had was my point, he claims to be a manager who believes in ideals of attacking football > everything else,
He's not, first and foremost hes a results focused coach, thats the point im trying to make.
We have as much alternatives as we want, if we are willing to pay the clubs and the managers with top dollars.
If the above is actually true, I have a MAJOR problem with his tactics!!!
Well, they should be ready to defend. Football can be a simple game, but a professional footballer should be able to work out that a real game of football is not like attack v defence. Shit happens, you're a professional footballer. BE prepared for fecks sake.
Is he that naieve? No player can not lose the ball 'at all costs' . It doesn't matter how loud you say it, or how many times you haul a player off at half time. Teams and players will all lose the ball. Tactically, you set up the team to cope with this. A player losing the ball should not be catastrophic for the team by default. It's stupid.
He is supposed to see the game and react accordingly. He is making the team weaker than it actually is with his tactics and player selection. Plus, the tactical inflexibility is more than a cause for concern. I'd go as far as saying it is making it easier for the manager of the opposition to attack our weaknesses. I don't think he can see the approach he has is not working. His changes, which are supposed to be, of benefit to the team, have sometimes made it worse. But if he cannot read the game unfolding in front of his own eyes and adapt then that's not good enough in my opinion. An all conquering team has to be more flexible than the one he presents. He is representing Manchester United, Manchester United are not representing LvG.
Then he must be sacked, if he fails. The best managers evolve as the game evolves. He could well be stuck in the past. Time will tell. Since when can adaptability not be a positive virtue??
It's his own bloody fault and we are suffering for it. Frankly he should have done his homework better!
Yes, it has, and he persisted far too long with it too. Again, the inability to recognize when change is needed is a flaw, and extremely worrying.
Maybe he won't have to make sacrifices if the team is set up adequately enough. It's fair to say, I think that there is room for improvement! There is sufficient quality in the squad (despite all it's limitations) to do FAR better.
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Ancellotti knows Real Madrid are going to stick the knife in his back sooner or later. We can easily buy out his contract and get him this summer. Same with nearly every other manager.
Obviously Woodward will have to seduce the potential targets.
The same Ancelotti, with his record of 3 league titles in 16 years of managing Juventus, AC Milan, Chelsea, PSG & Real, just to put things into perspective.
Whats Wengers league title record in the last 16 years out of curiosity.
By not having alternatives, I meant more about how two years with three managers will look and unsettle the club. And i do believe using Giggsy is an alternative but one which many are disagreeing. Somehow I don't believe it is a matter of money. Managers who want to join us are here to take on a challenge, and money will naturally follow
Wenger has won 3 league titles at Arsenal. What's wrong with Wenger? He's a fantastic manager, not finishing out of the top 4 in 16 years is a GOAT achievement (Especially when you put it into context at the fact he's been massively restricted by building a new stadium) Now those restrictions are gone, he's signing players like Ozil and Sanchez and he can finally build a title winning team again.
Also Ancelotti has won 3 champions league's, a feat only matched by Bob Paisly, he's a much better manager for stabilizing this club and he's in his prime whilst LVG seems past it.
Can I ask why you're so confident LVG is going to turn it around next year?
The money is more about buying them out of their current contracts, a lot of boards are reluctant to do that. As for how the club will appear, he will appear like a club who is willing to back his coach in the transfer market and with all his decision but who is looking for the perfect fit and won't stick with someone who do not correspond to it.
I said it in an other thread I have the impression that the club rushed Moyes AND Van gaal appointments.
I'm a Wenger fan, I just used him as an example who's equally not had a stellar league title collection, to Ancelotti, yet people, particuarly some Arsenal fans treat him like dirt due to to it, yet Ancelotti with a very similar league title count in that time is put on a pedestal with the ilk of Mourinho and Guardiola.
I dont think hes in that class, but his CL reccord shouldnt be discounted, as you bring it up.
I'm confident LvG will be better next year, for several reasons, condensing it, so not to bore you, Our start this year was awful, like 12 points from the opening 10 games was it not? against the likes of Sunderland, Burnley, Leicester, Swansea etc, while LvG got used to his squad and the Premier League, next season will account for being more comfortable entering the campgain, we shouldnt have to endure such a poor run of results against poor sides again entering the season from inexperience of the league (which we're still feeling to an extent now).
Secondly I think hes missing 3 important players to make his side tick, again to be very short, that CB that we all know we need, which will allow him to trust our defence more and take the handbreaks off, the Box to Box midfielder which he clearly feels we lack (having tried Rooney there hes been so desperate to recreate what he wants) and obviously Pace up front, and on the wings,
He can see so clearly when teams play so high against us, box us in currently and press us high, They're not scared of us inbehind, Yesterday Arsenal had Mertesacker up near our half way line! the slowest asshole Ive ever seen, and they had the audacity to play him so high because they knew we couldnt hurt them inbehind, its a huge deficiancy in our squad right now.
Once he gets those things Im sure our football will improve, because ive seen this guy play good football at his other clubs,
I also fear hitting the panic button to early, 4 managers in 4 years, all having bought their own type of player (costing in the hundreds of millions) could leave us with a completely disjointed squad should the next guy not work out in his first season also.
While I think you're doing Ancelotti something of a disservice, it would be strange to hire a manager whose obvious prowess is in the CL when we're possibly not even in the competition.
The only reason we should sack LVG is if Mourinho becomes available. I think Pep would have a nervous breakdown were he to come here and see the lack of technical ability first-hand. Klopp's style would be highly unsuitable for most of our players, and the last thing we need is a major revising of our style of play (as in, having a manager come in and try and strip away the last 12 months of learning would do more harm than good, I'd imagine).
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