If you are having a referendum, then the party in government are surely going to campaign for their own deal to pass? It's potentially a move that could alienate them from their Remain voters if Labour are seen as backing a deal to leave the EU.
UK General Election - 12th December 2019 | Con 365, Lab 203, LD 11, SNP 48, Other 23 - Tory Majority of 80
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If you are having a referendum, then the party in government are surely going to campaign for their own deal to pass? It's potentially a move that could alienate them from their Remain voters if Labour are seen as backing a deal to leave the EU.
Because they want to remain and are called the remain alliance? They are standing down for Dominic Grieve to get him back in, why shouldn't they do it for David Drew considering he is commited to a 2nd ref and as a minimum a customs union if we had to leave. This was way before Labour officially supported the 2nd ref by the way. Why does what party he is from matter when their single issue for existence is being fulfilled by him getting elected? I'll tell you why, because Swinson dreams of propping up Johnson and getting him to agree to a 2nd ref while railroading dreadful policies onto the people of this country.
If I recall correctly, the mural was a Facebook post in which he only asked why the mural is being cleared? And later said he regretted not looking more closely at the mural before commenting. A mistake but hardly rampant anti semitism.
The wreath was paying respects to civilians killed in an Isreali air strike.
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-jeremy-corbyn-and-the-wreath-row
My problem is when Corbyn gets blamed for the actions of other people. I understand there are some members and/or activists who had been guilty of anti semitism. No more than any proportion of the whole population or any other political party are xenophobic, racist or anti semitic. This has been dealt with more efficiently than by any other party who have equal problems.
Corbyn should be proof that people get fired up by causes they believe in, and that people want to vote for those causes rather than dispassionate bureaucratic solutions to political problems. It was how he became leader of the party in the first place.
Are these two instances, which aren't even half truths, enough to label a man, that has being against all forms of discrimination, prejudice, racism and hostility throughout his life, an anti-semite? Corbyn has many flaws, anti-semitism isn't one of them.
What happens with Brexit will determine what policies any party will follow so although they may not think Brexit is so important at this moment the outcome of Brexit could radically change both Tory's and Labour's financial policies they outlined today and thus the money to help these voters with the issues that are concerning them may not be there.
Keir Starmer said he has been speaking with European Union for 3 years in his capacity as Shadow Brexit Secretary. You can find him saying that in the undoctored version of the interview with Morgan and Reid as you may have missed it. Therefore I would think he knows what is acceptable and not acceptable to the EU and has set out Labour plans accordingly.
Well you say campaign but all they really have to say is "This is the best deal we can get by leaving the EU and it comes with x, y and z as the consequences/benefits. Or you can vote to remain." Kind of like what Johnson or May could've done if they weren't controlled by the ERG and assorted folk with vested interests in seeing us crash out with no deal.
You make an interesting point, the spending plans of both main parties take your breath away in terms of the Billons being borrowed. In part because this doesn't fit well the Climate Change agenda, where a more profit driven economy (i.e. needed to pay back the loans) is not going to be able do the things that Extension Rebellion want, certainly not in the time scale. Another issue is that the 'full fat' approach you suggest comes with Labours plans, also include billions for e.g. renationalising the railways, which does nothing for those who rarely use them and very little to make the existing railways cheaper and more efficient for those that do and will therefore add even more costs to the national debt. Borrowing money to improve health and social (includes Police) services is one thing, borrowing money to carry out 'totem-pole' (long cherished) policies, which of themselves, do not guarantee an improvement or reductions in costs, is another.
If the 'big give away' comes under real analysis and economic scrutiny then both sides will need the likes of 'spreadsheet Phil' (Hammond) to present the figures effectively and both will need top economists to back their play... that means economists who have a good track record in predictions, both sides will therefore be asking themselves,"do we know any"?
Oh come on, the EU have said they will not discuss Brexit with anyone other than the government. The EU have not had negotiations with Labour, they've listened to what Labour have to say. I know the video was edited. If Labour supporters seriously believe that what Labour has outlined so far is in the remotest credible there is definitely a very nasty shock coming. Labour really have to get out of this fantasy land. I wish they'd get on with publishing their manifesto so we can see precisely what's being proposed because so far it sounds like the 2017 proposal with an extra unicorn of a FTA done by March.
Negotiate a deal, then allow the public to vote on a second referendum.
Unfortunately half the country is still split on Brexit, so there's no realistic way to capture as many voters as possible while choosing one side of Leave or Remain.
I haven't been able to find any conclusive polling data that has Remain ahead of Leave by a margin bigger than +4 in the last 6 months, so anyone who focuses only on one side of the debate will miss a large sum of voters.
Not necessarily, no.
Especially when there are other issues such as Policing & safety, education, transport, homelessness etc which all need to be addressed regardless of the final Brexit outcome. The Tories have lost 2.3 billion in housing since 2015 (with no houses built) and announced a 10 billion 'No-Deal Brexit Emergency fund' also. There's clearly money to help fund these issues, regardless of what goes on with Brexit.
The certaintiy of which you speak with makes it sound like you were in the room, are you Barnier?
Corbyn's trying to please both sides, some people are not going to be happy , that's inevitable.
Of course there are many issues that need to be addressed. Question is if Brexit goes badly how much less money will be available and which policies will be scrapped. £10bn emergency fund won't cover very much, like trying to put out a fire with a cup of water.
The certaintiy of which you speak with makes it sound like you were in the room, are you Barnier?
I didn't say they didn't meet.
The EU said it themselves, they also said that a very basic FTA could be drawn up in a year. What about all the FTA agreements that the UK currently have with other countries which will be torn up when the UK leave- will they also be negotiated in three months so that Brexit is sorted. I find it very hard to believe that anyone believes this but people believed the nonsense claimed by the Brexiteers so I know I shouldn't be surprised by anything any more.
That's the mess of it all, Brexit isn't likely to be complete any time soon. Even if the Tories win and get the deal done, that's just the first step of many.
Not everybody is going to be happy despite what position any party takes, but it's the only play that makes sense considering the country is still so incredibly split on Brexit & a large amount of Labour voters, are also likely to be Leave voters
If Brexit goes badly, we'll have to cross the bridge when we get there because a lot of things will be unavoidable. But that's not a reason to not vote for Labour, imo.
But Labour aren't looking at a basic FTA they're looking at customs union which removes a load of negotiations on goods etc and possible single market. So really as we have said over and over and over and over there's feck all negotiation required for BRINO. You just don't want to accept it and neither do a lot of others who are looking for an excuse to vote for the Lib Dems to feel like they are doing something to remain when in reality they're just enabling a Tory Brexit. Lib Dems are irrelevant in all circumstances as they will have feck all power to do anything about Brexit. It's between Labour and Conservatives on everything. Winner take all quite literally for the direction this country heads, this is the system we have with first past the post. If Brexit is your only concern then think who do you want to deal with it, Labour or Tories, those are the only real choices, a vote for anyone else is a throwaway vote that will bring unintended consequences.
So under labour we are giving up on any trade deals with any other country (if your in the existing EU customs union this is the trade off)? and labour are possibly accepting free movement of people (by being in the single market)?
or are we back to cherry picking and making magical deals resplendent with unicorns where we can access all EU trade deals, have a say on future EU deals but negotiate our own, somehow manage to negate the need for a hard Irish Border under those circumstances and end free movement by dividing the 4 indivisible aspects of the single market)
yeah it does not hold up to much scrutiny does it.
Of course, this will go on for years whatever the outcome of this election or Brexit but supposedly it'll all be sorted out within six months.
My objection to this particular point is Labour saying they will sort Brexit out within six months, which I'll bet with anyone they won't and that no impact of Brexit is taken into account by either Labour or Tories of Brexit. We know the Tories are liars, Labour are not doing themselves any favours by clearly lying as well.
How is Labour running candidates in seats they can’t win and handing victory to the Tories going to help the Remain cause? Or is this a one sided blame game? The Lib Dems said ages ago they were open to tactical deals (unless my memory is really fecked), it was Labour refusing to join in.
The (not a) customs union and being members of the single market does not need lengthy negotiations, BRINO would require Norway and the others to agree to it but I don't believe Labour have this in mind at all. They talk of a customs union, close alignment to the single market and stuff about workers rights which is meaningless. As I've said until it is shown in black and white exactly what they intend but this is the impression I am getting.
All politicians are liars, we've known this since we were kids.
I don't condone everything this Labour team does - but I actively oppose almost everything the Tories stand for, in comparison. So for me, the choice is clear.
And the madness continues.
Labour do not advocate for Remain, their policy at present is a second referendum. Thus, it does not follow that their lodestar for this election should be returning only “Remain” MPs. The “Remain Alliance” are supposed to be that. So it is illogical for them to join together in seats when doing so can only benefit the election of a Conservative MP. It’s not about blame, it’s about the idiocy of a cause actively undermining the very thing it claims to have as its raison d’être.
Yes, the Lib Dems, led by Swinson who has made explicit numerous times that she will never put Corbyn in No. 10, is open to tactical deals with the party led by...Jeremy Corbyn. Come on, you’re not that gullible to believe this. Neither party is going to contemplate it.
Hang on... they are really going with “it’s antisemitic to point out that someone advocating voting for the Conservatives is a Tory”. And they want us to take allegations of Labour antisemitism seriously?
How is that addressing it well? Austin was at most a regional minister (a New Labour creation). No where near as high profile as Grieve.
Did you read the entire thread or just the first tweet?
I thought the EHRC investigation would show that it is a serious issue.
https://www.equalityhumanrights.com...vestigation-into-labour-party-28-may-2019.pdf
(I don't agree with Usherwood in this instance)
Funnily enough all the people desperate to talk about anti-Semitism went very quiet when Gove was called out recently for a tweet which conflated the British Jewish community with the state of Israel. Likewise, other dog-whistle comments by Mogg and Patel barely raised a mention, and cosying up to the anti-Semitic Orban regime in Hungary is fine too.
On mobile so didn’t realise it was a thread. So yeah, his follow up tweets are much more valid
I still don’t agree that Austin and Grieve are good / equivalent comparators (he was attorney general ffs)...
But that actually makes Goodall’s comments about how Austin is portrayed vs Grieve even more pertinent
Who said DUP and UKIP in the poll?
I believe the investigation is the result of politically motivated complaints they have received.
If it concludes otherwise then I will have to reassess that, but you can’t use the existence of an investigation as proof of guilt.
Edit:Plus the fact that the EHRC say they will be referring to the IHRA definition is HUGELY problematic. Essentially assuming what the entire debate has been over since the start.
So for instance if a Labour Party member said Palestinians should have the right of return the EHRC can call that antisemitic
I tell you what is anti-semitic. Werewolf. Fairly obvious what's going on there and who the 'wolves' are meant to represent.
Whilst it isn't a sign of guilt the threshold is very high, so there is substance. Will have to wait and see what the report finds.
How long have you had that tagline!?
As someone who thinks cross-party alliances in the coming election are a good thing, I agree. Pointless and self-defeating to be doing it in seats like Stroud. It's almost like a back-scratching exercise, where the Greens have only agreed to it in exchange for a free run in various western constituencies. Meanwhile somewhere like Somerton and Frome, which had a Lib Dem MP until 2010, has no arrangement. Haven't had a proper look at the list but I imagine there's plenty more like this.
Paul, you don’t strike me as a knob, of which there are few knocking about the CE. Please tell me do you really believe Labour will give people a 2nd ref and who would you rather be in charge of Brexit, Corbyn or Boris? If you say Swinson I’ll recategorise you and move on.
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